They are using an average, the upper limit for a 30 year old is not the same as a 50 year old.
I did too, long time ago in this thread.
You said you donāt need labs to diagnose. You must of missed my question, but what would a doctor look for otherwise to diagnose?
Symptomatology is much more important. Age is a huge factor. History.
So now youāre putting words in my mouth?
Let me be clear on the question, what is your dosing schedule, and when did you do your labs in comparison to your shot when you arrived at this 20 ng/dl conclusion?
Please read again and tell me what you would do to the man. If he sat at 20 free t for 3 years without resolution of symptoms are you really going to make him drop from 30?
No there are plenty of folks who have zero issues with what you just stated in regards to bun creative and whatever.
So you are telling me you have allowed men to stay above lab ranges and observed all of them having these issues? How did you manage this observation if In the first place you are to scared to even allow a man to take more T than the current standards. Or are you referring to folks who were taking tons more t for other purposes than symptom resolution?
Iām a little confused. I reference clinical experience and itās shot down. Yet your clinical experience is valid. But the logic isnāt there. How do you know higher free t is bad for all men if in the first place you wonāt let it happen.
Every man is unique. But we have one thing in common. Our body loves testostorone and needs it. We donāt aim to put every man at 35 or 40 free t. What we aim for is the minimal amount of t needed to resolve symptoms. For many men that seeks to be well above and beyond 20. Rarely does a man find symptom resolution below 20.
So what do you do for a man who isnāt feeling well when their labs fall within the upper range of labs do you tell them itās depression and they need an ssri? What??
You said that I said you canāt run a 20 ng/dl without it wrecking your labs. I never said that.
But I am still trying to answer your question. This 20 ng/dl, how did we arrive there?
Ok so now let me ask you a question, is it different for someone who does every 7 days and land on 20?
So not only have you reduced the number from 30 (what dbossa suggested) to 20 you also reduced injections to twice a week. So do you understand how this affects actual testosterone numbers for the patient?
But thats not my point. My point is you are near peak when you measure on twice weekly. Maybe it goes to 25.
For someone on weekly that is going to swing from 40 20.
So no the latter you canāt do, it messes up your labs. Yours you can probably get away with.
Remember the context here of my accusations, the guys free T is 2x the range in his trough.
Do you consider that a cycle?
Well remember, the HCT is low BECAUSE of the kidney issues.
Yea Thomas Oāconnor. He says some silly things sometimes lol But he is a good guy, and he knows his shit when it comes to lipids for men that are on T or Steroids.
I know this cause one of our docs is really good at it, cause he is ER. My best friend is ER too, he is also good with it.
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I quit drinking for Jan, Feb, Marā¦I dont recommend it.
Donāt stop the nandrolone, all the joint damage from the water retention caused will reveal itself. CJC/IPAM much better option 
For the last 6 years I have refused to do nandrolone for TRT, lost lots of clients cause of it.
only stop after you have regenerated some tissue
Maybe thats what it is. Maybe there are lots of variables.
But patients report chronic pain, that was worse than before treatment, after cessation.
GH would actually fix the problem, instead of reducing symptoms temporarily.
Oh an now you donāt have to obscenely suppress your adrenals. You can actually stimulate them.
It was very important for me to understand where I stand with the free test values compared to the numbers discussed here.
Now I know its suboptimal for sure
@NH_Watts
I keep my drinking in the upper ranges. Itās where I feel best
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Let me be clear buddy cause I like chatting with you. I am not telling you not to go on TRT. I am simply saying, at this point in your history, I do not think it is a medical necessity.
It is my duty as a good guy that understands the advantages and disadvantages of long term TRT to make sure you understand this.
Some people are so bad it is a legit medical necessity and they are are great risk if they donāt optimize their hormones.
Hope that makes sense.
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