[quote]forlife wrote:
Even in the absence of superstition, our genetics and socialization would cause most to associate shame with acts of murder and rape.[/quote]
Well, that socialization (having developed without religion) would be completely alien to us. Remember this would be a society that could never even entertain the idea of inalienable rights. You’d grow and develop in a society that not only rejected, but couldn’t even begin to comtemplate such an idea. Science certaintly wouldn’t have shown men to have these rights. They can’t simply be given to us by nature. I mean, laws in nature that proclaim inalienable rights for mankind? What atheistic scientist would ever make such a crazy statement, am I right?
The very thought, moral laws, begs for a final authority, an intelligent author. Dumb, cold universes care nothing for good and evil. Be it the male lion playing with his cubs, or killing the cubs of a rival, the universe and nature don’t have a care either way. See, it doesn’t have a care at all. Not even for us.
And, among men, rights are as numerous as opinions it seems.
Stop, I have a right to my life! No, you don’t. Nor do you have a right to that woman with you
Stop, I have a right to all my profits. No, I have a right to healthcare and old age entitlements.
Stop, thief!. No I have a right to the excesses of modern wealth. Thanks for the dvd player.
But, inalienable rights. That wonderful supernatural concept doesn’t ever come to exist in your hypothetical. And such a society would reflect as much.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sloth, my compliments to you on this thread.[/quote]
Shucks man, thanks. It’s ‘yet another religion thread.’ But, it’s general enough for some good clean fun with all this thinking and yacking back and forth.
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Back when you considered yourself spiritually dead, even then would you have committed rape and murder? >>>[/quote]The only thing preventing Oprah from erupting into Jack the ripper is the restraining universal common grace of a merciful God. Paul was killing Christians B.C. Everybody is capable of the most horrendous wickedness imaginable. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< You seem like a good guy; I have a hard time believing you would hurt others so severely, even if there was no god or afterlife.[/quote]You have scraped things off your shoe that contributed more good to this world than I did without Jesus. We’ll just leave it at that.
This question, “How to live if there is no God(or gods)?” is central to buddhist philosophy. In it’s purest form there is no divine in buddhism, the Buddha was not divine nor divinely inspired, he was just a dude who happened to meditate until he could see true reality. He was probably not the first, most definately not the last, just the most famous. Anywhoo & I’m paraphrasing heavily from memory, it was decided that it was simply better to live “correctly” then to not.
Better for the individual as well as society, this is how the Buddha developed the "Way".
[quote]forlife wrote:
Even in the absence of superstition, our genetics and socialization would cause most to associate shame with acts of murder and rape.[/quote]
Well, that socialization (having developed without religion) would be completely alien to us. Remember this would be a society that could never even entertain the idea of inalienable rights. You’d grow and develop in a society that not only rejected, but couldn’t even begin to comtemplate such an idea. Science certaintly wouldn’t have shown men to have these rights. They can’t simply be given to us by nature. I mean, laws in nature that proclaim inalienable rights for mankind? What atheistic scientist would ever make such a crazy statement, am I right?
The very thought, moral laws, begs for a final authority, an intelligent author. Dumb, cold universes care nothing for good and evil. Be it the male lion playing with his cubs, or killing the cubs of a rival, the universe and nature don’t have a care either way. See, it doesn’t have a care at all. Not even for us.
And, among men, rights are as numerous as opinions it seems.
Stop, I have a right to my life! No, you don’t. Nor do you have a right to that woman with you
Stop, I have a right to all my profits. No, I have a right to healthcare and old age entitlements.
Stop, thief!. No I have a right to the excesses of modern wealth. Thanks for the dvd player.
But, inalienable rights. That wonderful supernatural concept doesn’t ever come to exist in your hypothetical. And such a society would reflect as much. [/quote]And Sloth covers the societal level for us with his usual penetrating, incisive brilliance. Yes, the very basis of our declaring independence in the beginning from a despotic monarch would be expunged. All that “endowed by their creator” and (very protestant and reformed =]) “firm reliance on divine providence” stuff n all.
[quote]thick88 wrote:
This question, “How to live if there is no God(or gods)?” is central to buddhist philosophy. In it’s purest form there is no divine in buddhism, the Buddha was not divine nor divinely inspired, he was just a dude who happened to meditate until he could see true reality. He was probably not the first, most definately not the last, just the most famous. Anywhoo & I’m paraphrasing heavily from memory, it was decided that it was simply better to live “correctly” then to not.
Better for the individual as well as society, this is how the Buddha developed the "Way". [/quote]
This is not true from what I have read. He supposedly never made any claims about the divine. He was said to refuse to even discuss the issue. To my understanding, buddhism in no way rejects the divine, it just doesn’t consider it.
[quote]thick88 wrote:
This question, “How to live if there is no God(or gods)?” is central to buddhist philosophy. In it’s purest form there is no divine in buddhism, the Buddha was not divine nor divinely inspired, he was just a dude who happened to meditate until he could see true reality. He was probably not the first, most definately not the last, just the most famous. Anywhoo & I’m paraphrasing heavily from memory, it was decided that it was simply better to live “correctly” then to not.
Better for the individual as well as society, this is how the Buddha developed the "Way". [/quote]
This is not true from what I have read. He supposedly never made any claims about the divine. He was said to refuse to even discuss the issue. To my understanding, buddhism in no way rejects the divine, it just doesn’t consider it. [/quote]
According to Richard Hayes in “Principled Atheism in the Buddhist Scholastic Tradition”: he made a number if claims, including that religious superstition is “unhealthy.” That said, his attitude can in general be characterized as more anti-speculative (“who gives a shit?”) than explicitly atheistic. For practical purposes, an ambivalent agnostic is not terribly dissimilar from an atheist.
[quote]thick88 wrote:
This question, “How to live if there is no God(or gods)?” is central to buddhist philosophy. In it’s purest form there is no divine in buddhism, the Buddha was not divine nor divinely inspired, he was just a dude who happened to meditate until he could see true reality. He was probably not the first, most definately not the last, just the most famous. Anywhoo & I’m paraphrasing heavily from memory, it was decided that it was simply better to live “correctly” then to not.
Better for the individual as well as society, this is how the Buddha developed the "Way". [/quote]
This is not true from what I have read. He supposedly never made any claims about the divine. He was said to refuse to even discuss the issue. To my understanding, buddhism in no way rejects the divine, it just doesn’t consider it. [/quote]
Love the shirt! Braves Country bitch…
It believes in a higher existence and metaphysical higher realms, but rejects the idea of Coalescing this realm in to a single God-head being. They believe in spiritualism and spirit and higher living.
Basically this higher realm which is in everything and everything is a part of is their ‘version’ of what we would call God.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
For practical purposes, an ambivalent agnostic is not terribly dissimilar from an atheist.[/quote]
actually, an agnostic and a positive atheist are completely different. They are as different as an agnostic and a theist.[/quote]
Which is why I said “for practical purposes” i.e. regardless of theoretical divergence or even antithesis, to say “I don’t know if there’s a God and I don’t care and therefore I will simply ignore the question, which I furthermore find to be unhealthy” is in practice extremely similar to “there is no God.”
One key would be the word ‘unhealthy.’ Whether he believed that God didn’t exist or simply admitted and accepted ignorance (something we should all do), theistic religion was obviously distasteful to him.
[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:
[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]
I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.
What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.
[/quote]
I’d quit going to church…
I have more free time and I could sleep in on Sundays
Depends on who or why…I don’t think I would randomly start popping caps in people’s asses, but options would be on the table that ordinarily wouldn’t be.
To some degree but I would probably be more narcissistic.
What ever suited my purposes I would do. I would tolerate mush less shit I would imagine though. I wouldn’t get mean or anything, I just would leave and not come back to avoid unpleasant situations…
Pat, sounds like your life wouldn’t change all that much, aside from sleeping in on Sunday morning. Do you see inherent value in treating people with dignity and respect, aside from your belief in god and an afterlife?
To answer your question, I would want to know God’s will for my life, and would do everything I could to follow that will.
[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:
[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]
I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.
What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.
How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?
Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?
Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?
Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?
I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.
Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]
If there is no god, good and evil and love don’t exist, so your question is meaningless.[/quote]
Would you be ok with murdering people? Would you still try to help people?[/quote]
There would be no G-d, no free will, no nothing. I’d follow my instinct and do what would help me survive. [/quote]
What if, in the hypothetical example, you did have free will? Would you indiscriminately rape and murder people? Why or why not?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Even in the absence of superstition, our genetics and socialization would cause most to associate shame with acts of murder and rape.[/quote]
Well, that socialization (having developed without religion) would be completely alien to us. Remember this would be a society that could never even entertain the idea of inalienable rights. You’d grow and develop in a society that not only rejected, but couldn’t even begin to comtemplate such an idea. Science certaintly wouldn’t have shown men to have these rights. They can’t simply be given to us by nature. I mean, laws in nature that proclaim inalienable rights for mankind? What atheistic scientist would ever make such a crazy statement, am I right?
The very thought, moral laws, begs for a final authority, an intelligent author. Dumb, cold universes care nothing for good and evil. Be it the male lion playing with his cubs, or killing the cubs of a rival, the universe and nature don’t have a care either way. See, it doesn’t have a care at all. Not even for us.
And, among men, rights are as numerous as opinions it seems.
Stop, I have a right to my life! No, you don’t. Nor do you have a right to that woman with you
Stop, I have a right to all my profits. No, I have a right to healthcare and old age entitlements.
Stop, thief!. No I have a right to the excesses of modern wealth. Thanks for the dvd player.
But, inalienable rights. That wonderful supernatural concept doesn’t ever come to exist in your hypothetical. And such a society would reflect as much. [/quote]
Some philosophers have argued that unalienable rights derive from our humanity, rather than from supernatural declaration.
Also, legal rights via social contract with the government can still inform socialization, conscience, and behavior.
The question is not where these rights come from, but whether they would continue to influence your behavior in the absence of a god or an afterlife.
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Back when you considered yourself spiritually dead, even then would you have committed rape and murder? >>>[/quote]The only thing preventing Oprah from erupting into Jack the ripper is the restraining universal common grace of a merciful God. Paul was killing Christians B.C. Everybody is capable of the most horrendous wickedness imaginable. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< You seem like a good guy; I have a hard time believing you would hurt others so severely, even if there was no god or afterlife.[/quote]You have scraped things off your shoe that contributed more good to this world than I did without Jesus. We’ll just leave it at that.
[/quote]
Fair enough, but I think it would be different for others. Even if I were an atheist, I would still believe in treating people with respect. Not because a supernatural being told me to do so, but because I value humanity for their own sake.
[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:
[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]
I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.
What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.
[/quote]
I’d quit going to church…
I have more free time and I could sleep in on Sundays
Depends on who or why…I don’t think I would randomly start popping caps in people’s asses, but options would be on the table that ordinarily wouldn’t be.
To some degree but I would probably be more narcissistic.
What ever suited my purposes I would do. I would tolerate mush less shit I would imagine though. I wouldn’t get mean or anything, I just would leave and not come back to avoid unpleasant situations…
Pat, sounds like your life wouldn’t change all that much, aside from sleeping in on Sunday morning. Do you see inherent value in treating people with dignity and respect, aside from your belief in god and an afterlife?
To answer your question, I would want to know God’s will for my life, and would do everything I could to follow that will.
[/quote]
I think this would be better phrased that 'If you quit believing in God’s existence and were convinced. You know well that I believe in God, and that if there were no God, nothing would exist. Your question kind of presupposes that God does not exist and should we get on board with that, how would we change…
Any how, I think it’s a fallacy that Religion is this controlling over lord that just always tells you ‘No’. I don’t see it that way, I see it as freedom and perhaps that’s why I wouldn’t seem to change all that much. But there are things I probably would not do any more…It’s those things that my faith compels me to do in a way nothing else can. It’s the sacrifice that has not apparent material value anymore. The sacrifices I make the things I do behind close doors (And I don’t mean spanking my monkey to porn), or things I have done that no one knows about, etc…It’s that extra mile I go because of faith that would never happen again. Nobody is truly altruistic, those actions that seem to be done that way by the faithful are done for God, out of love and the belief that he appreciates and will take care of us now or in the end…
Further, I wouldn’t dwell so much on correcting my short comings, if I did not see some benefit to doing so in the short term.
I would still be sorry I hurt people I care about and stuff and would not necessarily seek harm, but rather than agonize over the ‘Problem of evil’ in the world, I would take a more ‘that’s the way the ball bounces’ approach.
So would not believing in God make me worse? Yes, at least a little, but not in a way most folks would notice.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Every actual and possible object of knowledge whatsoever conclusively establishes not only that God is, but what He’s like and we are accountable to Him. Nobody can “find out” that the ultimate seminal fact upon which all else depends doesn’t exist. Even their “finding out” is itself blinding evidence that He is there. I can’t even intelligibly address this question phrased this way. I know what I’d do if I weren’t a Christian and didn’t believe if that’s what you’re asking, because I did it already.[/quote]
This.
I don’t think forelife believes there is no god or has even come to the realization of what a godless universe even means. [/quote]
I couldn’t with integrity believe there is no god(s), since it’s certainly possible. However, I also couldn’t with integrity dismiss the possibility of a godless universe.[/quote]
But do you understand the implications?[/quote]
Yes. I thought through all of that during my spiritual journey. It was an incredibly emotional, soul-shaking transition and I spent many nights crying over what it meant for myself and my loved ones. I fully understand why many would never even consider taking that journey.[/quote]
We’d be utterly void of any and all meaning. There would be no right, wrong, good, bad, beauty, ugly, love, pleasure, pain, est.
I also personally believe existence necessitates a god even if from a deist perspective. No, god to me means no existence.[/quote]
Sounds like you believe that in your case, if you knew there wasn’t a god or an afterlife, you would find no beauty, pleasure, or pain in the world?
[/quote]
If you are insinuating that I could create my own worth, then you are asking me what I would do if I thought I were god, and you said there was no god.[/quote]
Not insinuating anything, I was just curious what you believe. I think you would still feel pleasure and pain, and would still find some things in the world beautiful, and some things ugly. It would just be through a natural rather than a supernatural lens.[/quote]
Sorry, missed this. There is no such natural component of beauty, pain, or pleasure. Without a god love and eating chocolate are the same thing.
DD, so in the hypothetical example, you would view your loved ones in the same way you view chocolate? Would you value them the same? Would you make sacrifices for them, that you wouldn’t make for chocolate?