Believers: What Would You Do?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
42

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

…I would rather ask what if monotheism wouldn’t ever had overrun older nature religions…[/quote]

What makes you think monotheism is younger then polytheism and pantheism?[/quote]

Well, since I swallow evolution hook, line and sinker it comes natural. We could argue about it, but it would really be futile so please just accept it as my opinion.[/quote]

Fair enough. I have no problem with you or anyone else making claims like the above just so long as the tagline of “fact” is not attached.[/quote]

It is a fact for me, of course, but I won’t rub it in your face :slight_smile:

43

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

…I would rather ask what if monotheism wouldn’t ever had overrun older nature religions…[/quote]

What makes you think monotheism is younger then polytheism and pantheism?[/quote]

Well, since I swallow evolution hook, line and sinker it comes natural. We could argue about it, but it would really be futile so please just accept it as my opinion.[/quote]

Technically, out of necessity monotheism has to be older. Some single god had to be the first to materialize in some person’s thoughts. The moment the some man came up with the idea of a god, monotheism was born. Not until the second god was thought up were the others born.

44

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

…I would rather ask what if monotheism wouldn’t ever had overrun older nature religions…[/quote]

What makes you think monotheism is younger then polytheism and pantheism?[/quote]

Well, since I swallow evolution hook, line and sinker it comes natural. We could argue about it, but it would really be futile so please just accept it as my opinion.[/quote]

Technically, out of necessity monotheism has to be older. Some single god had to be the first to materialize in some person’s thoughts. The moment the some man came up with the idea of a god, monotheism was born. Not until the second god was thought up were the others born.[/quote]

Apparently not: Polytheism - Wikipedia

45

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

…I would rather ask what if monotheism wouldn’t ever had overrun older nature religions…[/quote]

What makes you think monotheism is younger then polytheism and pantheism?[/quote]

Well, since I swallow evolution hook, line and sinker it comes natural. We could argue about it, but it would really be futile so please just accept it as my opinion.[/quote]

Technically, out of necessity monotheism has to be older. Some single god had to be the first to materialize in some person’s thoughts. The moment the some man came up with the idea of a god, monotheism was born. Not until the second god was thought up were the others born.[/quote]

Technically, when some individual first came to think of some power it have probably been on some very mundane matter, the fear of a dark forest, full of beasts or whatever we can speculate. The thought of a supreme being can’t really have been the first thing in mind for the primitive man.

46

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

…I would rather ask what if monotheism wouldn’t ever had overrun older nature religions…[/quote]

What makes you think monotheism is younger then polytheism and pantheism?[/quote]

Well, since I swallow evolution hook, line and sinker it comes natural. We could argue about it, but it would really be futile so please just accept it as my opinion.[/quote]

Technically, out of necessity monotheism has to be older. Some single god had to be the first to materialize in some person’s thoughts. The moment the some man came up with the idea of a god, monotheism was born. Not until the second god was thought up were the others born.[/quote]

Technically, when some individual first came to think of some power it have probably been on some very mundane matter, the fear of a dark forest, full of beasts or whatever we can speculate. The thought of a supreme being can’t really have been the first thing in mind for the primitive man.[/quote]

monotheism does not equal an all powerfull god. If the first concept of a god was one of a dark forest god, then it’s still monotheism.

Heck, I’d even go so far as to say those primitive men without a concept of god practiced monotheism of self.

Either way, there must first be belief in one before there can be belief in a pantheon.

47

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

…I would rather ask what if monotheism wouldn’t ever had overrun older nature religions…[/quote]

What makes you think monotheism is younger then polytheism and pantheism?[/quote]

Well, since I swallow evolution hook, line and sinker it comes natural. We could argue about it, but it would really be futile so please just accept it as my opinion.[/quote]

Technically, out of necessity monotheism has to be older. Some single god had to be the first to materialize in some person’s thoughts. The moment the some man came up with the idea of a god, monotheism was born. Not until the second god was thought up were the others born.[/quote]

Apparently not: Polytheism - Wikipedia
[/quote]

Swing and a miss. Don’t worry, you’ll make contact eventually.

48

Not really. If there’s a dark forest god there’s also a river or sea god. There’s a god of fire, god of rain.

Animistic beliefs have a plethora of gods, and only if you believe in the expulsion from Eden, the early tribes of man roaming the plains of Africa were most likely animists.

49

But this is getting off-topic.

Let’s not do that for once.

Sorry forlife.

50

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

…I would rather ask what if monotheism wouldn’t ever had overrun older nature religions…[/quote]

What makes you think monotheism is younger then polytheism and pantheism?[/quote]

Well, since I swallow evolution hook, line and sinker it comes natural. We could argue about it, but it would really be futile so please just accept it as my opinion.[/quote]

Technically, out of necessity monotheism has to be older. Some single god had to be the first to materialize in some person’s thoughts. The moment the some man came up with the idea of a god, monotheism was born. Not until the second god was thought up were the others born.[/quote]

Technically, when some individual first came to think of some power it have probably been on some very mundane matter, the fear of a dark forest, full of beasts or whatever we can speculate. The thought of a supreme being can’t really have been the first thing in mind for the primitive man.[/quote]

monotheism does not equal an all powerfull god. If the first concept of a god was one of a dark forest god, then it’s still monotheism.

Heck, I’d even go so far as to say those primitive men without a concept of god practiced monotheism of self.

Either way, there must first be belief in one before there can be belief in a pantheon.[/quote]

You are making an definition of your own of monotheism here, that’s not cool. Please apply the commonly accepted definitions, you can xheck them if you like. You know you are talking out of your ass here. Prrt, quel odour. You are so clever.

51

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

But I’m not asking if you think it’s possible. I’m asking what you would do if it were actually real. What if people, in this hypothetical example, were not religious by nature and there was no god or an afterlife?[/quote]

Then the world would be an ugly, ugly, place.

[/quote]

Ok, but to my questions, what would YOU do? Would you steal and even rape or kill if you knew you could get away with it? Would you spend more time with your family, knowing that the time was a far more precious commodity than you realized?[/quote]

I don’t know. It would be such a dramatically different me, in such a dramatically different world. See my comment about owning slaves. Here I am today, looking at the slave trade as some kind of alien concept. Yet, had I been in that culture…[/quote]

Fair enough.

52

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Every actual and possible object of knowledge whatsoever conclusively establishes not only that God is, but what He’s like and we are accountable to Him. Nobody can “find out” that the ultimate seminal fact upon which all else depends doesn’t exist. Even their “finding out” is itself blinding evidence that He is there. I can’t even intelligibly address this question phrased this way. I know what I’d do if I weren’t a Christian and didn’t believe if that’s what you’re asking, because I did it already.[/quote]

This.

I don’t think forelife believes there is no god or has even come to the realization of what a godless universe even means. [/quote]

I couldn’t with integrity believe there is no god(s), since it’s certainly possible. However, I also couldn’t with integrity dismiss the possibility of a godless universe.[/quote]

But do you understand the implications?[/quote]

Yes. I thought through all of that during my spiritual journey. It was an incredibly emotional, soul-shaking transition and I spent many nights crying over what it meant for myself and my loved ones. I fully understand why many would never even consider taking that journey.[/quote]

We’d be utterly void of any and all meaning. There would be no right, wrong, good, bad, beauty, ugly, love, pleasure, pain, est.

I also personally believe existence necessitates a god even if from a deist perspective. No, god to me means no existence.[/quote]

Sounds like you believe that in your case, if you knew there wasn’t a god or an afterlife, you would find no beauty, pleasure, or pain in the world?
[/quote]

If you are insinuating that I could create my own worth, then you are asking me what I would do if I thought I were god, and you said there was no god.[/quote]

Not insinuating anything, I was just curious what you believe. I think you would still feel pleasure and pain, and would still find some things in the world beautiful, and some things ugly. It would just be through a natural rather than a supernatural lens.

53

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

…I would rather ask what if monotheism wouldn’t ever had overrun older nature religions…[/quote]

What makes you think monotheism is younger then polytheism and pantheism?[/quote]

Well, since I swallow evolution hook, line and sinker it comes natural. We could argue about it, but it would really be futile so please just accept it as my opinion.[/quote]

Technically, out of necessity monotheism has to be older. Some single god had to be the first to materialize in some person’s thoughts. The moment the some man came up with the idea of a god, monotheism was born. Not until the second god was thought up were the others born.[/quote]

Technically, when some individual first came to think of some power it have probably been on some very mundane matter, the fear of a dark forest, full of beasts or whatever we can speculate. The thought of a supreme being can’t really have been the first thing in mind for the primitive man.[/quote]

monotheism does not equal an all powerfull god. If the first concept of a god was one of a dark forest god, then it’s still monotheism.

Heck, I’d even go so far as to say those primitive men without a concept of god practiced monotheism of self.

Either way, there must first be belief in one before there can be belief in a pantheon.[/quote]

You are making an definition of your own of monotheism here, that’s not cool. Please apply the commonly accepted definitions, you can xheck them if you like. You know you are talking out of your ass here. Prrt, quel odour. You are so clever.[/quote]

Belief in one god. I did.

This is like you guys are saying that 100 bicycles were invented before 1 bicycle was.

All I’m talking about is basic simple logic. The first guy coming up with the first god = monotheism. Multiple gods weren’t believed in before one was. It’s simply not rationally possible. In the very simplest terms all those theism derive from monotheism.

I don’t know maybe I’m not being clear, but it seems like you guys are entirely missing my point.

54

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I mean, I make claims about the absolute evil of, say, rape.

In a world of zero religious sensibility, this claim wouldn’t be made at all. It couldn’t be. It’s a claim from supernatural/superstitious belief. There is no telecscope fixed on the middle of the universe, where some monolith with the laws of good and evil fixed on it’s surface. Besides, that would scream out the existence of some intelligence. There’s no calculus that can discover what is absolutely good and evil. I’ve yet to discover the morality of rape in a biology textbook. Etc.

Now take your hypothetical world, one with zero religious inclination. Not even just organized religion. No, not even that superstitious itching at the very back of the mind, suggesting that something in the universe is keeping watch. Imagine trying to start civilization.

Saying rape is evil in a completely non-religious world is pointless. Someone else would say hogwash, the strong and clever take what they please. That’s what’s good in life. Niether is right or wrong. Let me state that plainly, it is a fact that raping is no less or no more evil than not raping, without introducing superstitious/supernatural belief (even if only deep down, without admitting it). Beliefs either way would just be that, beliefs. But not only that, they’d be beliefs without any real oomph. “I believe rape is evil. Why? Because that’s how I feel. But, I do realize that in reality, evil, doesn’t exist.” Is that really the founding language of ordered human civilization?[/quote]

Good post. I still believe that you would probably choose not to rape people, even if there was no god and no afterlife.

To your earlier post, it goes to conscience and what influences it. Beliefs in the supernatural can certainly play a role, but socialization and genetics also probably play a role. Even in the absence of superstition, our genetics and socialization would cause most to associate shame with acts of murder and rape.

55

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< can you answer the question as if there wasn’t?[/quote]“In Him I live and move and have my being” (Acts 17:28) I honestly don’t think I can. I have no idea. It’s like asking me what I think I’d be like if I didn’t exist. Only even less fathomable.

56

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
I know how the belief affected my own perceptions and my own behavior, but I’m curious how it would affect yours.

[/quote]

I’d wager the belief(s), the formative impact, still affect your behavior more than you might like to admit.[/quote]

I’m not sure why you think I would hesitate to admit the formative impact of my religious upbringing. As a psychologist with some understanding of human development, that would be dishonest.[/quote]

I apologize, sincerely. I have to admit to being pleasantly surprised. I made an assumption you wouldn’t admit to as much.

Edit: But to be clear, I’m also speaking of a bit of “just in case” calculation among agnostics and even atheists. That for different reasons, and concerning different behaviors and thoughts, certain circumstances and behaviors aren’t acceptable for, well, superstitious reasons. Almost a deepdown, inner glance to the heavans. I’m not talking about any god, or even one god. I’m talking about some deep feeling, imparted by a religious culture, that “somehow and someway, I can’t get away with this even if do. Some how, some way, regardless if I was the only person to ever know of this of my guilt, I will pay.”

In a world that never knew religion (something would have to prevent it), this ‘superstitious’ inner dialogue would never take place. So yeah, it would be a faaaaar uglier world.[/quote]

I think you make a good point, but keep in mind that religion and superstition aren’t the only contributing factors to conscience. I think socialization plays a big role, and probably even genetics.

I’ve always found it interesting why some people have such severe consciences, while others have the capacity for rationalization and compartmentalization, to the point where pretty much anything goes.[/quote]

How can YOU “compartmentalize” religion and socialization? The very definition of socialization would include the religion(s) of a society.[/quote]

I agree that religion can be socialized, but there are many values, norms, attitudes, etc. that can also be socialized in the absence of religion.

57

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Belief in one god. I did.

This is like you guys are saying that 100 bicycles were invented before 1 bicycle was.

All I’m talking about is basic simple logic. The first guy coming up with the first god = monotheism. Multiple gods weren’t believed in before one was. It’s simply not rationally possible. In the very simplest terms all those theism derive from monotheism.

I don’t know maybe I’m not being clear, but it seems like you guys are entirely missing my point.[/quote]

Maybe god is not the first definition you should apply then? Did the concept of a supreme god spring up from, I don’t know where; I would suppose, and it is commonly supposed by scholars, that there are degrees of evolution. But I really must go to bed now, see you later.

58

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< can you answer the question as if there wasn’t?[/quote]“In Him I live and move and have my being” (Acts 17:28) I honestly don’t think I can. I have no idea. It’s like asking me what I think I’d be like if I didn’t exist. Only even less fathomable.
[/quote]

Back when you considered yourself spiritually dead, even then would you have committed rape and murder? You seem like a good guy; I have a hard time believing you would hurt others so severely, even if there was no god or afterlife.

59

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.
[/quote]
I’d quit going to church…

I have more free time and I could sleep in on Sundays

Depends on who or why…I don’t think I would randomly start popping caps in people’s asses, but options would be on the table that ordinarily wouldn’t be.

To some degree but I would probably be more narcissistic.

What ever suited my purposes I would do. I would tolerate mush less shit I would imagine though. I wouldn’t get mean or anything, I just would leave and not come back to avoid unpleasant situations…

[quote]
I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]
Don’t know…

But, what if you found out beyond the shadow of a doubt that God did exist, Christianity was his preferred way, would you change anything or stay status quo?

60

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]

If there is no god, good and evil and love don’t exist, so your question is meaningless.[/quote]

Would you be ok with murdering people? Would you still try to help people?[/quote]

There would be no G-d, no free will, no nothing. I’d follow my instinct and do what would help me survive.