[quote]Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…this is why i said that the result of this study invalidates the truthfulness of any religion, not just christianity [to be fair]…
It doesn’t invalidate any religion…
…reading comprehension people! Ofcourse it doesn’t invalidate religion Sloth, if i wanted to say that i wouldn’t have written: this study invalidates the truthfulness of any religion…
Well, if I have to be precise, it doesn’t do this either…[/quote]
…does too…
Why is anyone surprised that God would build something in us, to ensure our survival?
[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
There is no way to confirm that NDE’s and electric brain stimulation created the same effect. Secondly, it does little to explain those NDE’s whose experiences involved seeing and accurately reported things that were going on while they were flat lined and could not possibly have known them otherwise…
Here is the good news to all of this, one day we will all know the answers. All we got to do is die.
Sure there is. Put people that have reported NDE’s in a lab, stimulate their brain, and ask them how similar the two experiences are. Again, people fail to account for random chance and other potential explanations in determining the probability of “miracles”, like reporting something that happened while you were flatlined. Sometimes really, really rare things do happen by chance alone.
Unfortunately, if there is no life after death, you will never realize your mistake in believing as you do. Not that your belief is necessarily unhealthy, as long as it doesn’t hinder your happiness or that of other people.[/quote]
If God builds something in us to enhance our ability to survive, then the only logical conclusion is that Satan put any GAY genes in us, to promote our destruction.
Gays by definition would not have children if they were pure gay. Being gay is from Satan.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:Chocolate can replicate the feeling of love, does that make you not believe in love? Drugs can make you feel like you�¢??re flying, does that replace airplane travel?
…you can attribute a cause to such feelings; in this case a feeling is caused by chocolate and love is a matter of chemicals in the brain. One can also attribute certain religious feelings to a cause, namely the belief one has towards a deity or religion. It’s a feedback loop without the grand instigator that’s god, see?
[/quote]
I would argue that feedback loops have to function on sound principles other wise they go extinct. There has to be affirmation to these “God spots” otherwise, they wouldn’t have survived very long evolutionarily speaking. This is the principle of behind operant conditioning. Behaviors and even feelings toward something has to have some affirmation or the conditioned behavior will expire. This is a long winded way of saying that the religious belief is a two way street, if the believer never gets any return on his investment, he will not believe long.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
The same ravenous curiosity that drives religious inquiry drives scientific inquiry - the desire to know.
Don’t give me that shit. Where are the endless hours of rational inquiry into the ridiculous claims of religion? It’s nothing more than the easy way out, it gives lazy people answers - people wanting something for nothing.[/quote]
Cause it’s a lot less lazy to only believe what your 5 senses tell you and nothing more.
[quote]pat wrote:
ephrem wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:Chocolate can replicate the feeling of love, does that make you not believe in love? Drugs can make you feel like you�?�¢??re flying, does that replace airplane travel?
…you can attribute a cause to such feelings; in this case a feeling is caused by chocolate and love is a matter of chemicals in the brain. One can also attribute certain religious feelings to a cause, namely the belief one has towards a deity or religion. It’s a feedback loop without the grand instigator that’s god, see?
I would argue that feedback loops have to function on sound principles other wise they go extinct. There has to be affirmation to these “God spots” otherwise, they wouldn’t have survived very long evolutionarily speaking. This is the principle of behind operant conditioning. Behaviors and even feelings toward something has to have some affirmation or the conditioned behavior will expire. This is a long winded way of saying that the religious belief is a two way street, if the believer never gets any return on his investment, he will not believe long.[/quote]
…i agree. The pay-off for the believer is emotional, which i’m not denying. There are many upsides to religious beliefs for the individual, but our ways part here: the emotional pay-off does not come from God, imo, but is self-induced…
…most of us adop religous beliefs quickly and with ease. We affirm those beliefs in church and by reading the religion’s holy books, through prayer and by having certain experiences. Experiences which are also self-induced btw…
[quote]pat wrote:
Makavali wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
The same ravenous curiosity that drives religious inquiry drives scientific inquiry - the desire to know.
Don’t give me that shit. Where are the endless hours of rational inquiry into the ridiculous claims of religion? It’s nothing more than the easy way out, it gives lazy people answers - people wanting something for nothing.
Cause it’s a lot less lazy to only believe what your 5 senses tell you and nothing more.[/quote]
…correct me if i’m wrong, but aren’t you the one that said he’d rather have the bible give him the answers instead of having to make an effort to attain enlightenment? This was in a buddhist thread some time ago…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
pat wrote:
ephrem wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:Chocolate can replicate the feeling of love, does that make you not believe in love? Drugs can make you feel like you�??�?�¢??re flying, does that replace airplane travel?
…you can attribute a cause to such feelings; in this case a feeling is caused by chocolate and love is a matter of chemicals in the brain. One can also attribute certain religious feelings to a cause, namely the belief one has towards a deity or religion. It’s a feedback loop without the grand instigator that’s god, see?
I would argue that feedback loops have to function on sound principles other wise they go extinct. There has to be affirmation to these “God spots” otherwise, they wouldn’t have survived very long evolutionarily speaking. This is the principle of behind operant conditioning. Behaviors and even feelings toward something has to have some affirmation or the conditioned behavior will expire. This is a long winded way of saying that the religious belief is a two way street, if the believer never gets any return on his investment, he will not believe long.
…i agree. The pay-off for the believer is emotional, which i’m not denying. There are many upsides to religious beliefs for the individual, but our ways part here: the emotional pay-off does not come from God, imo, but is self-induced…
[/quote]
Well lets look at that another way. We can treat ourselves great, buy ourselves the best cars, houses, clothes, spank our monkeys 5 times a day…This self love is self induced, and by georgy, your are going to treat yourself better than any woman would ever treat you. However, we sacrifice most of this self-love for a relationship even though relationships are largely a pain in ass. The problem is this self-love is just plain unsatisfying. I would say it’s the same with religious faith. The pay off, if self-induced, would not last, because it would be unsatisfying.
Usually, in my experience, people who accept religious faith easily let go of it just as easily.
I would argue here that again self-induced experiences are unsatisfying. Would you rather jack your dick or have some sex with a hot chick? (Had to make it a “hot chick” because some chicks are nasty and jacking one’s dick is preferable) It’s easier to pound your poodle, and you don’t have to cuddle or any of that shit, but the sex is preferable even if harder. Self induced experiences are not satisfying. If the religious relationship is not reciprocal, it will self terminate.
And yes I did relate religious experiences with jerkin’ it. There is some strange tandem there.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
pat wrote:
Makavali wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
The same ravenous curiosity that drives religious inquiry drives scientific inquiry - the desire to know.
Don’t give me that shit. Where are the endless hours of rational inquiry into the ridiculous claims of religion? It’s nothing more than the easy way out, it gives lazy people answers - people wanting something for nothing.
Cause it’s a lot less lazy to only believe what your 5 senses tell you and nothing more.
…correct me if i’m wrong, but aren’t you the one that said he’d rather have the bible give him the answers instead of having to make an effort to attain enlightenment? This was in a buddhist thread some time ago…
[/quote]
Your wrong, that was not me…I would not say something like that.
[quote]pat wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pat wrote:
Makavali wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
The same ravenous curiosity that drives religious inquiry drives scientific inquiry - the desire to know.
Don’t give me that shit. Where are the endless hours of rational inquiry into the ridiculous claims of religion? It’s nothing more than the easy way out, it gives lazy people answers - people wanting something for nothing.
Cause it’s a lot less lazy to only believe what your 5 senses tell you and nothing more.
…correct me if i’m wrong, but aren’t you the one that said he’d rather have the bible give him the answers instead of having to make an effort to attain enlightenment? This was in a buddhist thread some time ago…
Your wrong, that was not me…I would not say something like that.
[/quote]
…my apologies Pat…
…but beliefs are all in the brain, there is no intermediate that causes the release of endorphins or whatever chemical it is that makes you feel good. And don’t forget, many believers get their fix once or twice a week, it’s at the forefront of their existence most of the time…
[quote]Usually, in my experience, people who accept religious faith easily let go of it just as easily.
I would argue here that again self-induced experiences are unsatisfying. Would you rather jack your dick or have some sex with a hot chick? (Had to make it a “hot chick” because some chicks are nasty and jacking one’s dick is preferable) It’s easier to pound your poodle, and you don’t have to cuddle or any of that shit, but the sex is preferable even if harder. Self induced experiences are not satisfying. If the religious relationship is not reciprocal, it will self terminate.
And yes I did relate religious experiences with jerkin’ it. There is some strange tandem there.[/quote]
…i’m going to contradict myself and say you are right. Altough religious beliefs are powerfull and can have a great effect on people’s behaviour, the ongoing secularisation of Europe is an indication that the relief people once sought in religion is not satisfactory. In Holland only 19% of the people go to church at least once a month. It’s expected that over one thousand churches will close it’s doors in the next 10 years. So, where does that leave religion?
[quote]pat wrote:
Makavali wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
The same ravenous curiosity that drives religious inquiry drives scientific inquiry - the desire to know.
Don’t give me that shit. Where are the endless hours of rational inquiry into the ridiculous claims of religion? It’s nothing more than the easy way out, it gives lazy people answers - people wanting something for nothing.
Cause it’s a lot less lazy to only believe what your 5 senses tell you and nothing more.[/quote]
Don’t give me this psuedo-sciencey philosophical bullshit. I use my 5 senses because I can rely on them. Pray tell, what are these miraculous senses beyond the 5 big ones?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Don’t give me that shit. Where are the endless hours of rational inquiry into the ridiculous claims of religion? It’s nothing more than the easy way out, it gives lazy people answers - people wanting something for nothing.[/quote]
Are you serious? The entire fields of philosophy, theology, and natural law are extensions of Mankind’s exhausting inquiry into the nature of a higher power. And, don’t forget - early science was conducted by religious clerics interested in learning about the order of a Deity’s universe.
It’s almost as if you have zero sense of history at all. Read the Greeks. Read Thomas Aquinas. Read any of the Eastern religion tracts. Mankind has perhaps spent more “endless hours” on this subject than any other.
And, Mak, let’s get serious - you are one of the most intellectually lazy folks here. Half the time, you make up facts and are refuted by the most cursory counterpoint - I am reminded of your bizarre claims that the US wanted essentially no religion in the public sphere at the birth of the nation, only to be shown that legislative sessions have been opened with prayer since horses pulled carts for transportation.
I like you, Mak, but when it comes to worrying about “lazy people getting their answers the lazy way”, I’d be a little more circumspect in damning others for it.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
pat wrote:
Makavali wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
The same ravenous curiosity that drives religious inquiry drives scientific inquiry - the desire to know.
Don’t give me that shit. Where are the endless hours of rational inquiry into the ridiculous claims of religion? It’s nothing more than the easy way out, it gives lazy people answers - people wanting something for nothing.
Cause it’s a lot less lazy to only believe what your 5 senses tell you and nothing more.
Don’t give me this psuedo-sciencey philosophical bullshit. I use my 5 senses because I can rely on them. Pray tell, what are these miraculous senses beyond the 5 big ones?[/quote]
Intellect? Rational thought? Deductive reasoning? Nothing miraculous…Most of us posses these things. Your senses only receive stimuli, nothing more.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Are you serious? The entire fields of philosophy, theology, and natural law are extensions of Mankind’s exhausting inquiry into the nature of a higher power.[/quote]
I’ll give you theology, but the others aren’t exclusively focused on a higher power. Or maybe your defintions are a little different to mine.
Who then rejected it when they realized it was detrimental to the power they had.
“There is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger. This is the disease of curiosity. It is this that drives us to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing and which man should not wish to learn”
Say what?
Yes, it would be incredibly smart for an atheist to tell everyone of his disbelief in God in an age when heretics were burned, tortured and otherwise executed. We don’t know how many of the smartest people in history believed in God or did not believe.
For example - Darwin was a devout Christian, and struggled long and hard with the ramifications of his work. Look at all the shit Galileo had to put up with, just because he dared to look at the stars.
[quote]And, Mak, let’s get serious - you are one of the most intellectually lazy folks here. Half the time, you make up facts and are refuted by the most cursory counterpoint - I am reminded of your bizarre claims that the US wanted essentially no religion in the public sphere at the birth of the nation, only to be shown that legislative sessions have been opened with prayer since horses pulled carts for transportation.
I like you, Mak, but when it comes to worrying about “lazy people getting their answers the lazy way”, I’d be a little more circumspect in damning others for it.[/quote]
Actually I have my own issues with this site in general, in fact I wouldn’t be at all surprised if this post
I’m fairly certain it’s an issue with my ISP and the T-Nation servers - old problem, new computer.
Also I stand by the ideal of seperating Church and state.
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The “establishment of religion” clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect “a wall of separation between church and State.”
EDIT: Fixed for minor error.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
pat wrote:Well lets look at that another way. We can treat ourselves great, buy ourselves the best cars, houses, clothes, spank our monkeys 5 times a day…This self love is self induced, and by georgy, your are going to treat yourself better than any woman would ever treat you. However, we sacrifice most of this self-love for a relationship even though relationships are largely a pain in ass. The problem is this self-love is just plain unsatisfying. I would say it’s the same with religious faith. The pay off, if self-induced, would not last, because it would be unsatisfying.
…but beliefs are all in the brain, there is no intermediate that causes the release of endorphins or whatever chemical it is that makes you feel good. And don’t forget, many believers get their fix once or twice a week, it’s at the forefront of their existence most of the time…
Usually, in my experience, people who accept religious faith easily let go of it just as easily.
I would argue here that again self-induced experiences are unsatisfying. Would you rather jack your dick or have some sex with a hot chick? (Had to make it a “hot chick” because some chicks are nasty and jacking one’s dick is preferable) It’s easier to pound your poodle, and you don’t have to cuddle or any of that shit, but the sex is preferable even if harder. Self induced experiences are not satisfying. If the religious relationship is not reciprocal, it will self terminate.
And yes I did relate religious experiences with jerkin’ it. There is some strange tandem there.
…i’m going to contradict myself and say you are right. Altough religious beliefs are powerfull and can have a great effect on people’s behaviour, the ongoing secularisation of Europe is an indication that the relief people once sought in religion is not satisfactory. In Holland only 19% of the people go to church at least once a month. It’s expected that over one thousand churches will close it’s doors in the next 10 years. So, where does that leave religion?
[/quote]
Europe is getting “islamafied” if anything…The result of wide open uncontrolled immigration.
Churches close in one place and open in others. It’s cyclical just like everything else. Depending where you are religious participation increases and decreases…This is not the first time Europe has been through this. When times are good people jump ship, when times are rough they come back…Funny how that works. Times are good right now, despite the recession. I wouldn’t worry about Europe, there is still plenty of religion going around.
Secondly, you have the eastern block, which was dereligioned by force, mixing in.
Yes, all beliefs and disbeliefs are in the brain. I am just saying that the feedback isn’t self induced, or purely socially reinforced. There’s more to it than that.
[quote]pat wrote:
Europe is getting “islamafied” if anything…The result of wide open uncontrolled immigration.
Churches close in one place and open in others. It’s cyclical just like everything else. Depending where you are religious participation increases and decreases…This is not the first time Europe has been through this. When times are good people jump ship, when times are rough they come back…Funny how that works. Times are good right now, despite the recession. I wouldn’t worry about Europe, there is still plenty of religion going around.[/quote]
…it actually is the first time the peoples of Europe secularize in these numbers, Pat. Religion just doesn’t cut it anymore for the most of us…
[quote]Secondly, you have the eastern block, which was dereligioned by force, mixing in.
Yes, all beliefs and disbeliefs are in the brain. I am just saying that the feedback isn’t self induced, or purely socially reinforced. There’s more to it than that.[/quote]
…it’s slight of hand, a mental mirage of your own doing. It won’t be long before we see a breakthrough in this field, but i don’t think that’ll be enough for the staunchest believers to succomb to reason. Thank you for your time and effort, it’s appreciated…
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Chocolate can replicate the feeling of love, does that make you not believe in love? Drugs can make you feel like youâ??re flying, does that replace airplane travel?[/quote]
The problem is that people experience these feelings, and automatically assume that they came from “god”. Most don’t realize that these identical feelings can occur through entirely natural processes, and thus experiencing them is not reliable evidence for concluding that there is a higher power.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
pat wrote:
Europe is getting “islamafied” if anything…The result of wide open uncontrolled immigration.
Churches close in one place and open in others. It’s cyclical just like everything else. Depending where you are religious participation increases and decreases…This is not the first time Europe has been through this. When times are good people jump ship, when times are rough they come back…Funny how that works. Times are good right now, despite the recession. I wouldn’t worry about Europe, there is still plenty of religion going around.
…it actually is the first time the peoples of Europe secularize in these numbers, Pat. Religion just doesn’t cut it anymore for the most of us…
Secondly, you have the eastern block, which was dereligioned by force, mixing in.
Yes, all beliefs and disbeliefs are in the brain. I am just saying that the feedback isn’t self induced, or purely socially reinforced. There’s more to it than that.
…it’s slight of hand, a mental mirage of your own doing. It won’t be long before we see a breakthrough in this field, but i don’t think that’ll be enough for the staunchest believers to succomb to reason. Thank you for your time and effort, it’s appreciated…
[/quote]
What field? Athiests have been trying to disprove God’s existence for centuries with no luck… There is not break through to be had. Atheism is not reasonable, as it draws a very large conclusion on a very small amount of information.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
pat wrote:
Europe is getting “islamafied” if anything…The result of wide open uncontrolled immigration.
Churches close in one place and open in others. It’s cyclical just like everything else. Depending where you are religious participation increases and decreases…This is not the first time Europe has been through this. When times are good people jump ship, when times are rough they come back…Funny how that works. Times are good right now, despite the recession. I wouldn’t worry about Europe, there is still plenty of religion going around.
…it actually is the first time the peoples of Europe secularize in these numbers, Pat. Religion just doesn’t cut it anymore for the most of us…
Secondly, you have the eastern block, which was dereligioned by force, mixing in.
Yes, all beliefs and disbeliefs are in the brain. I am just saying that the feedback isn’t self induced, or purely socially reinforced. There’s more to it than that.
…it’s slight of hand, a mental mirage of your own doing. It won’t be long before we see a breakthrough in this field, but i don’t think that’ll be enough for the staunchest believers to succomb to reason. Thank you for your time and effort, it’s appreciated…
[/quote]
Wait a sec…It’s slight of hand? A mental mirage of my own doing? How so? How do I fool myself? If I am wrong I would appreciate some proof I am, saying “You’re wrong I am right” don’t cut it.