Beginner Cycle: Test E And PCT

G’day, I am a 23 year old man with a fair few years of training under my belt, I weigh in at 107kg and I’m going to be running a cycle of Test E at 400mg p/w split into two pins, the duration will be for 12 weeks. I have aspirations to make lifting my career and step on stage at a later date, so no I’m not a casual bro. I have had blood work done as seen bellow.

Oestradiol: 132 pmol/L
Testosterone: 14.9 nmol/L
Calc Free Testosterone: 343
DHEAS: 6.2 umol/L
SHBG: 24

Now the formalities are out the way this is a conservative cycle that I wish to run.

Week 1-11 Test E (400 mg/week)
Week 12- Test E (250 mg/week)
PCT:
Week 13- Aromasin (25 mg/day)
Week 14-19 Nolvadex (20 mg/day), Aromasin (25 mg/day)
Week 20- Aromasin (25 mg/day)

Reasoning behind dropping the dose to 250 is to try and stop the negative rebound of estrogen, giving my body a stepping stone to PCT, is there anything good backing this theory?

How does my PCT look? Is it excessive or not comprehensive enough?

Should I wait longer than the next week to start PCT?

Should I run an AI or just have on hand and wait until I show symptoms?

Anything else to add? Things to watch out for?

To finish off this topic, no offence but if your input is to tell me not to run gear at all you are wasting your time as I am set on doing it and will do it in the near future, if you really do want to help me advising me on safe ways / the right ways to use gear would go a long way. Although that said… I do thank you for your concern.

Your age; I would prefer it a few years older but you are old enough to make your own possibly bad decision. You could potentially short change yourself on some natural development yet to come but you are basically on the line of potentially being done developing. (There is no way to know if you are done or not that is why they say 25 as a general rule) I just had to put that in for the 17-21 year olds that think they are done developing.

Ok first the PCT timing. I get long winded but I do it so there is very little chance of misunderstanding. Let’s say you do two equal shots per week, Sunday and Wednesday. You take your last shot Wednesday week 12. You need to wait at LEAST two weeks. I always count week 12 as “on” then start my count Sunday week 13. Then on Sunday week 15 I start. So depending on what you meant in your timing lay out you might want to add a week before you start.

You commented on the “step down” week on 250 mgs. This period you are trying to create where there is a gradual reduction in testosterone so your body reduces it’s aromatase enzyme and thus less estogen, well that time frame is already built in with the enanthate ester. If you are doing this to lower estrogen I will cover that part later with AI (aromasi ) protocol. Basic half life goes like this, you pin 500 mgs then 10 days (enanthate s half life) later you still have 250 mgs left in your body. So as the cycle progresses by week 5 you still have a few mgs left over from your first shot plus all the mgs left over from all subsequent shots. So by the time you get to week 12 you have a very nice build up, remember we keep pinning well before the half life so technically our levels just keep rising throughout our cycle. (To a point, depending on length and what not) We could even wait three weeks after last shot of enanthate to start PCT, depending on dosage per week and how long we ran that. So once you stop pinning you have a relatively significant drop by ten days but then it’s like a drawn out tapering down lowering testosterone level. If we have lowering testosterone levels then we end up with lowering estrogen levels that is if we are not blocking the aromatase process with an AI. It’s during that drawn out taper we get our boys back on with PCT by using Nolvadex or Clomid. They trick our body into thinking it needs to tell itself to make more testosterone, they don’t actually tell it to make it that’s HCG and we don’t use it during PCT as it is counter productive. We time like this so we never get a point of NO testosterone be it synthetic or natural.

You have Aromasin with your PCT, that will crash your estrogen and you will be tired, irritable, and have dry joints. Any dose by week two of PCT will tank your estrogen. Your stated dose of 25mgs a day is WAY to high for even on cycle estrogen control. Depending on how well your body aromizes testosterone I would think 12.5 mgs EOD or every three days aka twice a week would be ok to run the week after you stop pinning. Depending you might want to lower the dosage strength for the second week after you stop pinning. If you are just super sensitive to estrogen and your body just aromatizes test from you thinking about a cycle then you could continue to run it at a very low dose twice a week for the first week of PCT but that’s it! Don’t worry about the tiny bit of estrogen you will have once you stop for PCT, the SERM Nolvadex will keep you from getting gyno. You actually need the Estrogen, we just worry about too much but by PCT you will be totally fine without it especially since you have Nolvadex.

Aromatase Inhibitors like aromasin or arimidex block the enzyme from breaking down testosterone into estrogen. You have stated you are thinking about just waiting to see if you have issues with estrogen, that is fine some of us dont ever have issues. Then again some grow gyno from looking at a bottle of test. With your test dosage I don’t think you would ever need to go over 12.5 mgs twice a week or maybe as much as EOD. Keep in mind everyone is different and if you are using UGL brand (assume it is if you didn’t buy it YOURSELF from a pharmacy, they make good fake brand names) if it is UGL keep in mind the stated dosage level is probably not 100% accurate but as long as it does have Aromasin in the tablet you can play with how much you need to keep the sides down. With my brand of aromasin at 400 mgs per week of test I need 12.5mgs EOD but I can take it just about every day and not have dry joints, I aromatize more than the next guy, everyone is different.
Go look up the side effects of having to MUCH estrogen and NOT ENOUGH estrogen so you know what to look for. If you take too much aromasin you should be able to tell, you will get tired and have dry creeking popping joints. Still know the other signs so you can self monitor.

If your estrogen goes too high you should bloat and retain water along with high blood pressure. Since I have experience I know I retain water in my legs first when my estrogen goes up. I use athletic socks at the gym, if after a workout I see the fabric in print stuck in my skin after I take my socks off, then I know I have higher than desired estrogen.

Ultimately the only way we KNOW if our estrogen is high is through blood work. Chances are you don’t have to resources to do weekly blood work on cycle but you should try to get at least one on cycle so you know where you are at with your given dosages of everything. I am going to say it again, go read up on all the signs of high or low estrogen. I only tend to comment on the ones I know I show.

If you do end up using aromasin on cycle please keep in mind that you need some estrogen to gain muscle. I am not sure how but it does regulate some part of the process of growing new muscle. I have heard of pros intentionally “over dosing” the AI so that no natural estrogen occurs then using synthetic Estrogen to exactly control the ratio or level.

You have a six week PCT, typical is four but six is totally fine. I would change the dosage strength. The first two weeks you typically see guys going to 40mgs per day the the second two weeks at 20 mgs per day. If you are going to go all the way to six weeks then the last two I would drop down to 10mgs per day. If you have a limited number of tablets and getting more is not doable and you want six weeks then you could do 40mgs per day week 1, 20per day 2-4, and 10per day weeks 5-6. The added length over standard PCT might offset the lower than typical dosage of week 2. Keep in mind I am not a doctor. I have read that in a study that Nolvadex worked at increasing natural testosterone production for up to 3 months. I don’t know if these were regular healthy men, men with low testosterone, or guys that run gear. However I would think for our purpose going past six weeks would not be advisable unless a doctor was involved.

I know I went overboard with my response but I just have no idea what you do or do not know. I tried to include the stuff I wish I knew for my first cycle. And if anything came across as me being a dick, that was not my intention. I have a girlfriend who has English as her second language so I tend to over do my comments in hopes that it’s message doesn’t get lost in transmission.

One last thing. You didn’t include your height or rough body fat precentage. The body fat actually aromatizes test itself so that comes in to play when dialing in your aromasin dosage.

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What are you taking to avoid being attacked by yetis?

RIP your joints, stamina, libido, mood, and general well-being.

I just re-read your post.

Estrogen rebound if I understand it correctly then it is as follows; class 1 AIs like arimidex and femara will attach to the aromatase enzyme for the life of the AIs active life then they will detach releasing the enzyme to then possibly go attach to the test if no more AI is present. So basically you take arimidex and it’s half life is roughly three days so for those three days your body produces X number of enzymes per day. You took enough to attach to all the enzymes produced in three days. On day four the arimidex is broken down and then all three days worth of enzymes are now attaching to the test and creating estrogen. BAM estrogen rebound! It’s not that simple but that is the general basic theroy put into dum dum words.
Class 2 AI’s such as aromasin attach to the enzyme and effectively kill it. The aromasin can’t detach from the enzyme and let it go free to go get the test, it’s dead. There is no possibility of estrogen rebound when using aromasin. Now if you stop taking it then obviously your estrogen can come up just as fast as your body produces the enzyme and it breaks down the test. But that isn’t “rebound.”
The rebound is when you have an over abundance of the ezyme becoming free because the class 1 AI breaks down and then you have a glut of enzyme that is significantly higher than what your body would produce at one time or a single day. (As far as I understand it)

And Iron, be nice. We all started with absolutely no knowledge at some point. I actually use to think aromasin belonged in PCT, it’s on some site as the “correct” PCT protocol. We also have all avoided at least one mistake because some one let us learn from theirs.
But the mental picture of guy with creeky popping knees trying to hobble away in untold pain as a yetis comes for him did make me laugh. Especially if he got those dry knees from tanking his estrogen after he got gyno. I am picturing him giving a toppless self breast exam to see if it has gone away yet as he sees the yetis head comes into view over his shoulder in the mirrors reflection. And the gyno jiggling as he tries to hop away because his knees don’t work. And of course the yetis is chasing him to cop a feel.

Elias, we should have your straighten out but ask if you are not clear on anything at all. I seriously tried to fill in anything I saw as a flag about your method or knowledge. And always keep reading and learning. I am still finding answers to things I questioned years ago when I started.

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Not to worry, I want all the info I can get as I know nothing about PCT what so ever… thank you

Right, so with Aromasin if I was to take it, only during the first week of PCT and for 12.5 EOD/ twice during that week?

So take at a dose where I still produce Estrogen, can do.

40mg - 20mg of what, Nolva?

No that was awesome! I could really use all the knowledge I can use, thank you!!

Yes, I forgot to include the 5 grams of tren put straight into my knuckles EOD, thank you for noticing.

Yeah… I picked this up from one of the PCT posts… maybe someone was fucking around idk, funny story I once drank salt in water on an empty stomach before training as supposedly it was a great preworkout with sodium for a pump, little did my teenage body know that I had set myself up for a salt cleanse ffs LOL but that’s why I thought I would ask before I fuck myself, we ain’t talking about sodium here and poop jokes, it’s real shit.

The yeti question was real. I’m dead serious. If you’re worried about “estrogen rebound” then I have to assume that you also have some fears of yetis, chupacabras, and other mythical things with no basis in science.

No worries, aromasin kills estrogen not blocks it so there is no chance of an estrogen rebound, got it.

Yeah it was pretty good, can’t laugh at yourself who can you laugh at!

Thank you, if I may put in my re revised cycle up for scrutiny?

Week 1-12 Test E (400 mg/week)
Week 14-15 40mg Nolva
Week 16-17 20mg Nolva

Introduction of Aromasin at 12.5mg every three days if high estrogen symptoms occur and EOD if more is needed.

I hope I used all the advise given properly.

Yes I noticed, and is why I took the piss out of myself. I’m asking questions not because I know everything about the subject, but because I know not enough.

It’s good, man. This place will give you information, but it comes with some ball-busting too. But at the end of the day the goal is to be a community that’s dedicated to harm reduction and overall quality of life improvement.

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@physioLojik would LOVE this PCT plan. Just what the doctor ordered.

Ok your revised layout is good but since you pin on week 12 and you have a healthy dosage I would start PCT at the beginning of week 15. Go read up some on esters and half life it is the reason we still are “on cycle” for a good bit past our last pinning when using long chain esters like enanthate. Just go read so you better understand the timing. Short chain like propionate calls for PCT to start a few days after last pinning.

Let me re try to say what I meant about aromasin and when you stop. Last shots week 12. If you needed it on cycle then week 13 same dose. By 14 you may or may not need the same, most likely you should lower it. The ABSOLUTELY last week you ever need to take any aromasin is week 15 the fisrt week of PCT. That week you only take it if you find out you are super sensitive to estrogen but remember to lower it to like 6.25 mgs twice a week. It might even be a dose like 3 mgs actually I think if your stuff is good that would be about right. But everyone is different and not all UGL aromasin is equal. You test levels will be down by then so there is less food for the aromatase enzyme to turn into estrogen thus less estogen.

As far as estrogen rebound is concerned. It is based on the enzyme being able to detach from the AI like arimidex and then attach to test. I have searched and I cannot find how long the enzyme can last in the body. I have no idea how long it resists just natural break down or how long before the body will pass it. So yeah estrogen rebound is a theory as far as I understand it.

You will find a LOT of the stuff surrounding AAS (steroids) is bro-science. It is someone who maybe does or does not fully understand the subjects they are commenting on or trying to fix/address. Some is just from straight dumbasses. Even doctors that don’t specialize in this are responsible because they don’t specialize and try to fix a side effect. Perfect example is aromasin in PCT. It is known as a suicide inhibitor and because guys have the suicide thoughts when the crash post cycle someone drew the conclusion of adding in aromasin to PCT. Or at least that is what I remember being said on the site I originally got the idea that it belonged from. Really it is a suicide inhibitor because you get emotional with too much estrogen and that triggers something in the brain and aromasin somehow stops it, or at least I think it is something like that. (Bro-science right there from me)

I forgot to put in there that really there nothing wrong with a six week PCT. I would prefer the new guys being over cautious. It sends a good message. Really if you are at all concerned about that recovery post cycle strech the PCT out to six weeks with Nolvadex only and at 10mgs a day for the two extra weeks. If you have any history of being worrisome or anything like that or even if you don’t then still having extra Nolvadex on hand just in case never ever hurt anyone. The Nolvadex tricks your body into telling itself to make the testosterone. It doesn’t tell your body directly to make it. It’s like a safety net incase your body is slow at getting back to producing everything in balance on it’s own. My first few equipoise cycles (it has a real long half life of 16 days versus enanthates 10 or 11) I had an extra week on my PCT.

Since I keep talking about PCT the whole thing we are trying ultimately to get back is the HPTA.
Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Testes-Axis. Go read it’s important stuff to know. Basically it’s the loop in our body that regulates our hormones.