If you don’t mind being shut down, and shrunken nuts, you can live without HCG. I am not one of those … but it can be done.
[/quote]
Well, people with severe Hypogonadism are basically already shut down. I am not experiencing testicular atrophy and have been on therapy for approximately 8 months (e.g., the last 3 months on injections, five on Androgel/Testim). I agree that if a person is symptomatic for testicular atrophy it would be efficacious to consider hcG, however, in my particular case it would seem ineffectual.
[quote]sweetsplat wrote:
Wise Guy wrote:
Yes, its true some need no adex, but EVERYONE needs hcG, eventually.
From what I know, hcG is used to counter the effects of testicular atrophy If a person is not experiencing testicular atrophy why would you need hcG? [/quote]
They will eventually atrophy. Its absolutely certain.
100%. If they do not, you will be a miracle to modern science.
This will happen. I am certain. Trust me. I don’t mean o scare you, its not a huge deal. But I’m trying to really drill this point home - Don’t put hcG off until the last minute. When atrophy sets in, the testicals can actually be damaged. Not only that, the testicals are your bodies main source of pregnenolone, which is an important steroid.
[quote]Wise Guy wrote:
sweetsplat wrote:
Wise Guy wrote:
sweetsplat wrote:
, however, in my particular case it would seem ineffectual.
Merry Christmas!!
Why? Your testicals are he same size as they were when you were 25?
Huh?
You mentioned you haven’t needed hcG since you started HRT 8 months ago.
I have a hunch that your testicles probably already experienced some atrophy before you even started HRT, so its not really noticeable yet.
However, if you compared things to how you were as a 20 year old, might be different story.
Plus, your shutting down your pregnenolone production.
No ifs, ands, or buts about it. [/quote]
Most doctors don’t realize the long term consequences of the meds they give. Then when the symptoms of that protocol manifest themselves, they prescribe yet another short-term fix.
Anyone starting HRT should be on all three — Test, HCG, and Arim.
Note: KSman and Happydogg, on this site, know more about this than 99% of the docs I’ve met over the past 5 years of my HRT experience. We should all listen to them.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Note: KSman and Happydogg, on this site, know more about this than 99% of the docs I’ve met over the past 5 years of my HRT experience. We should all listen to them.
[/quote]
It does not matter if you were HPTA shutdown or before or not. When you restore T levels, you restore T–>E aromatization. You should be looking for an optimal level of E2=22pg/ml.
Do the E2 labs on your own with LEF.org and use liquid adex. If your E2 is in near 30 or higher, you will feel better getting closer to E2=22. If you cannot get proper care from a doctor, you have a choice to make.
Guys on gear that aromatizes who say that they do not need an AI are not getting an optimal experience. How many of these guys have elevated E and suffer the consequences of that but think that they are find because they do not have gyno? Saying these things has the comfort of self-deception and misleads others.
I received my blood work labs (T was at 345, previously it was 160) yesterday and talked to my doc. He says, how are you feeling? I say good but not great. I believe my mood has stabilized. However, my right nipple has been bothering me for the last 2 weeks (not true but hoping for a Tx of Arimidex) and my nuts have shrunk up to half (not true but I was going for a Rx of HcG).
He says, well if you want to continue on TRT that will happen. I say, is their anything you can prescribe to prevent atrophy? He says, no, but you can stop TRT if you want. Grrrr…
He refused to prescribe more T, dex, or Hcg. He said he was happy I was in the low normal range. Grrr…
[quote]sweetsplat wrote:
I received my blood work labs (T was at 345, previously it was 160) yesterday and talked to my doc. He says, how are you feeling? I say good but not great. I believe my mood has stabilized. However, my right nipple has been bothering me for the last 2 weeks (not true but hoping for a Tx of Arimidex) and my nuts have shrunk up to half (not true but I was going for a Rx of HcG).
He says, well if you want to continue on TRT that will happen. I say, is their anything you can prescribe to prevent atrophy? He says, no, but you can stop TRT if you want. Grrrr…
He refused to prescribe more T, dex, or Hcg. He said he was happy I was in the low normal range. Grrr…[/quote]
You will continue to have problems until you go to michigan and see Dr Crisler.
From my limited experience and AI is crucial for HRT. I’ve been experimenting with the dosage and if I’m off for a few days the libido goes and I start to bloat. I started out in october with E2 over 60 and tested last month at 24. I was prescribed .25mg adex daily and have had good results.
[quote]Wise Guy wrote:
sweetsplat wrote:
Wise Guy wrote:
Yes, its true some need no adex, but EVERYONE needs hcG, eventually.
From what I know, hcG is used to counter the effects of testicular atrophy If a person is not experiencing testicular atrophy why would you need hcG?
They will eventually atrophy. Its absolutely certain.
100%. If they do not, you will be a miracle to modern science.
This will happen. I am certain. Trust me. I don’t mean o scare you, its not a huge deal. But I’m trying to really drill this point home - Don’t put hcG off until the last minute. When atrophy sets in, the testicals can actually be damaged. Not only that, the testicals are your bodies main source of pregnenolone, which is an important steroid.
No hcg? No pregnenolone.
I would start looking around now. [/quote]
if the testicles are the main source of pregnenolone then why do guys have to suppliment it even when they are on HCG?
[quote]ZonaDave wrote:
Wise Guy wrote:
sweetsplat wrote:
Wise Guy wrote:
Yes, its true some need no adex, but EVERYONE needs hcG, eventually.
From what I know, hcG is used to counter the effects of testicular atrophy If a person is not experiencing testicular atrophy why would you need hcG?
They will eventually atrophy. Its absolutely certain.
100%. If they do not, you will be a miracle to modern science.
This will happen. I am certain. Trust me. I don’t mean o scare you, its not a huge deal. But I’m trying to really drill this point home - Don’t put hcG off until the last minute. When atrophy sets in, the testicals can actually be damaged. Not only that, the testicals are your bodies main source of pregnenolone, which is an important steroid.
No hcg? No pregnenolone.
I would start looking around now.
if the testicles are the main source of pregnenolone then why do guys have to suppliment it even when they are on HCG?[/quote]
Hey ZonaDave,
I’ve seen that you asked the same question over at Dr. John’s site without an answer as well, so I’ll bump this because I’d also like to know the answer.
My GUESS is that people only SUPPLEMENT with preg when on HCG, because they don’t produce optimum levels with their own natural production?
I’d like to hear from someone who’s not talking out their ass though.
Mostly degeneration from age. For the same reason that hCG will not increase T levels to those of a young man. The testes can become less able to respond to activated LH/FSH receptors and/or the receptors are reduced or dysfunctional.
While the benefit of restored pregnenolone from hCG may not be to an optimal level, it does have benefits. Many attribute the significant improvement in mood from hCG introduction to a TRT HPTA shutdown to the effects of increased [restored] pregnenolone on the brain. Pregnenolone is also used in the brain for the production of neural steroids.
Improving a low pregnenolone situation can also improve DHEA and all of the downstream steroid hormones, including cortisol.
On the flip side, TRT without hCG creates a pregnenolone deficiency. From the medical ethic of ‘do no harm’, one could argue that TRT without hCG does do harm by lowering pregnenolone, the basis for all steroid hormones, creating mood/mental problems, creating fertility problems and leading to disfigurement with the eventual destruction [atrophy] of the testicles.
KSMan:
If someone was not interested in having more kids or was not bothered by testicular atrophy/aesthetics, would it be realistic to just supplement with TD preg in high doses to reach optimal levels?
[quote]Caged wrote:
KSMan:
If someone was not interested in having more kids or was not bothered by testicular atrophy/aesthetics, would it be realistic to just supplement with TD preg in high doses to reach optimal levels?[/quote]
YES, but if you end up feeling a 24x7 ache in your testes, then hCG injections will fix that. This does not happen very often, but not rare either. If mood starts to suck, you can do a trial dose to see if that is helpful. If you replace preg and hCG helps, then there may be a direct effect of hCG. No one has all of the answers. So far, the mood benefits of hCG have been attributed to increase preg.
