I had been reading up on TB-500 as well as logs online and I am thinking of trying it.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Other than of course the veterinary steroids, probably the most common veterinary steroid used in bb’ing is clenbuterol, but you really weren’t asking about common!
PGF2a has been used by some out of hopes for local growth and for fat loss, but it’s stayed pretty rare and perhaps for good reason. Certainly, any substantial amount entering systemic circulation won’t be a good experience.
Kynoselen is well known but uncommon, probably for good reason. Actually it’s composed almost entirely of supplements, with only one drug compound, heptanimol, which probably isn’t of value for bb’ing.
Thymosin beta 4, also called TB-500, is perhaps the most interesting little-known veterinary drug with application to bodybuilding, or at least is the most interesting to me. It may be of real value with regard to healing long term injuries where chronic inflammation is a problem. I don’t have sufficient basis to endorse using it, but I’ve seriously considered trying it myself, and may very well do so.
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Bill, I did a little reading and was wondering if TB-500 could be used to help heal skin say after surgery (stitches), or lacerations to help speed up healing and lessen the chance of scarring. Would it need to be made topical?
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Thymosin beta 4, also called TB-500, is perhaps the most interesting little-known veterinary drug with application to bodybuilding, or at least is the most interesting to me. It may be of real value with regard to healing long term injuries where chronic inflammation is a problem. I don’t have sufficient basis to endorse using it, but I’ve seriously considered trying it myself, and may very well do so.
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Thanks for the information Bill Roberts. Two chemicals used in horse racing but are not well known are intramuscular (or slow IV) adenosine and inositol triphosphate. In fact, there is a supplement company which makes a liquid adenosine product. The adenosine is used to prevent bleeding from the nose in race horses, and is used as a vasodialator by bodybuilders prior to a show.
Parenteral ROA seems to cause an essential difference in effectiveness for some supplements. I don’t know if adenosine would even be absorbed in large quantities by the GI tract - there certainly wouldn’t be a large enough peak/bolus to cause transient vasodilation.
I am also interested in TB-500 research. What I don’t understand about TB-500 is that I read somewhere that it is a common, ubiquitous protein found in nearly all cells. Maybe introducing it to the blood stream has a different effect than keeping the tb-500 within the cell.
I think tb-500 could be useful because perhaps it is able to activate currently unknown growth pathways. I’ve read logs on tb-500 that have reported increased muscle definition along with pain relief. I think this is true of many peptides. For example, I suspect some of the positive effects of GHRH mimics is due to agonism at the opiod like growth receptor (zeta opiod receptor).
If bodybuilders can find other ways to grow besides the androgen receptor and IGF-1 receptor, they will get bigger.
[quote]maverick88 wrote:
Bill, I did a little reading and was wondering if TB-500 could be used to help heal skin say after surgery (stitches), or lacerations to help speed up healing and lessen the chance of scarring. Would it need to be made topical? [/quote]
It very well might: benefit has been shown with topical use. The use probably does need to be at the site. Whether localized injections, for example with an insulin needle, would suffice, I don’t know. A cream, silvathymosin (where it’s combined with silvadene) has been effective, but that isn’t commercially available: http://cdn.f1000.com/posters/docs/63967970
anime, thank you! I’ve never been involved with contest prep and had forgotten entirely that adenosine has been used for enhanced vascularity!
rrjc, I definitely will post experiences with the TB-500 if using it, which I likely will.
I used TB500 for some elbow tendonitis. Works like a charm.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
[quote]maverick88 wrote:
Bill, I did a little reading and was wondering if TB-500 could be used to help heal skin say after surgery (stitches), or lacerations to help speed up healing and lessen the chance of scarring. Would it need to be made topical? [/quote]
It very well might: benefit has been shown with topical use. The use probably does need to be at the site. Whether localized injections, for example with an insulin needle, would suffice, I don’t know. A cream, silvathymosin (where it’s combined with silvadene) has been effective, but that isn’t commercially available: http://cdn.f1000.com/posters/docs/63967970
anime, thank you! I’ve never been involved with contest prep and had forgotten entirely that adenosine has been used for enhanced vascularity!
rrjc, I definitely will post experiences with the TB-500 if using it, which I likely will.[/quote]
That is interesting, this may be a bit off topic but, would it be a simple process to make a peptide a topical? Can you just mix it into some aloe?
Not with regard to data on thymosin beta-4 specifically, but broadly transdermal delivery of peptides through intact skin is problematic and generally not efficient. With regard to thymosin beta-4, studied topical use may have been limited to cases where the wound itself provided an opening and in such situations, then no particular technology is needed. The silvathymosin mentioned previously appears to be simply thymosin beta-4 mixed into an existing wound cream.
The body naturally produces quite substantial amounts of thymosin beta-4 into wound fluid, for example:
Having a cream with a relatively high aqueous concentration of TB-500 in contact with an open wound, and an opening could include a stitched wound in the earlier phases (until stratum corneum has formed to seal the wound, and even then perhaps to some extent around the stitches themselves) would readily deliver TB-500 into the wound fluid.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Not with regard to data on thymosin beta-4 specifically, but broadly transdermal delivery of peptides through intact skin is problematic and generally not efficient. With regard to thymosin beta-4, studied topical use may have been limited to cases where the wound itself provided an opening and in such situations, then no particular technology is needed. The silvathymosin mentioned previously appears to be simply thymosin beta-4 mixed into an existing wound cream.
The body naturally produces quite substantial amounts of thymosin beta-4 into wound fluid, for example:
Having a cream with a relatively high aqueous concentration of TB-500 in contact with an open wound, and an opening could include a stitched wound in the earlier phases (until stratum corneum has formed to seal the wound, and even then perhaps to some extent around the stitches themselves) would readily deliver TB-500 into the wound fluid.
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Thanks Bill and yeah I did not mean as a transdermal delivery like androgel but, as a healing aid to an open wound. So, if for example I cut myself would I just use a topical anti-bacterial cream or soothing gel (aloe vera) and add the peptide to it?
The subject of faster healing and especially scarless healing has always interested me. Seems that there should already be something on the market to give these types of results.
I would use a cream which was an water-in-oil formulation (in other words, mostly oil or petroleum jelly) rather than an oil-in-water cream or particularly rather than a gel.
The delivery will be better when the TB-500 isn’t diluted into more water of the preparation than necessary. For example, the silvadene cream used in the study cited is mostly petrolatum with rather little water.
I agree: it’s such a simple thing to try, and little to no reason (assuming cost and acquisition aren’t issues) not to.
This site needs to have a Bill Roberts forum all to himself, like CT and John Meadows. Some of the most cutting edge hardcore discussions are raised via Bill’s input. Really, this site needs this.
[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
This site needs to have a Bill Roberts forum all to himself, like CT and John Meadows. Some of the most cutting edge hardcore discussions are raised via Bill’s input. Really, this site needs this. [/quote]
Ya second this…
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I would use a cream which was an water-in-oil formulation (in other words, mostly oil or petroleum jelly) rather than an oil-in-water cream or particularly rather than a gel.
The delivery will be better when the TB-500 isn’t diluted into more water of the preparation than necessary. For example, the silvadene cream used in the study cited is mostly petrolatum with rather little water.
I agree: it’s such a simple thing to try, and little to no reason (assuming cost and acquisition aren’t issues) not to.[/quote]
Hope you are still around Bill.
Does the type of oil matter?
Me and a friend will be trying this soon. Me for my elbow. My friend topically for a rolling scar caused by acne and a chicken pox scar both on the cheek. He will be dermarolling the rolling scar and single needling the pox scar. Issue is petroleum jelly can aggravate the skin and in some cause clogged pores/pimples.
The most convenient thing would be using an existing water-in-oil cream and adding the TB-500 to it. If the ingredients list puts any oil ahead of water, it will be fine. The particular oil used doesn’t matter really.
If youre sticking yourself in the face with needles already why not just inject locally using tiny volumes and a 31g?