[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
There is nothing in scripture that says we are to revere this man. [/quote]
Okay. No, a document 1900 years old probably wouldn’t have John Paul’s name in it.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Who gives a shit?[/quote]
I do…and a large chunk of the entire world.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I have prayed to John Paul II since early 2010. However, beatification allows for public cultus or public veneration. And, canonization allows the whole Church to have public cultus or public veneration.
[/quote]
Seems to be pretty contradictory to what I’ve read elsewhere.
Exodus 20:4-5
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I have prayed to John Paul II since early 2010. However, beatification allows for public cultus or public veneration. And, canonization allows the whole Church to have public cultus or public veneration.
[/quote]
Seems to be pretty contradictory to what I’ve read elsewhere.
Exodus 20:4-5
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me[/quote]
This is what I was alluding to with my previous post. Idolatry.
Good catch, Stronghold.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I have prayed to John Paul II since early 2010. However, beatification allows for public cultus or public veneration. And, canonization allows the whole Church to have public cultus or public veneration.
[/quote]
Seems to be pretty contradictory to what I’ve read elsewhere.
Exodus 20:4-5
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me[/quote]
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I have prayed to John Paul II since early 2010. However, beatification allows for public cultus or public veneration. And, canonization allows the whole Church to have public cultus or public veneration.
[/quote]
Seems to be pretty contradictory to what I’ve read elsewhere.
Exodus 20:4-5
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me[/quote]
This is what I was alluding to with my previous post. Idolatry.
Good catch, Stronghold.
[/quote]
Meh, cherry picking the parts of a bible that suite you best are what makes each religion unique. lol
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I have prayed to John Paul II since early 2010. However, beatification allows for public cultus or public veneration. And, canonization allows the whole Church to have public cultus or public veneration.
[/quote]
Seems to be pretty contradictory to what I’ve read elsewhere.
Exodus 20:4-5
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me[/quote]
I agree, it does seem contradictory and I agree 100% with Exodus 20:4-5 and the rest of Exodus. Moreover, you’re a smart person, so I want to share a tidbit about myself.
When I was a Calvinist effectively (I was also a young earth creationist), I believed it to be extremely contradictory. I would berate every Catholic I knew why they worshiped false gods called the Saints. So much so that they would either tell me to buzz off or deny that they even prayed to the Saints.
However, once I stopped being a complete jackass and did some word study in order to find out what people meant. On top of that actually read the entire Bible, I started seeing that I was misunderstanding stuff.
1 Tim 2:1-2:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
When a Catholic or a Jew or Orthodox or Protestant ‘prays’ to someone that has fallen asleep, there is two possibilities of what they are doing. I’ll go over the first one quickly; when someone prayers to a saint that has fallen asleep, that just means they are talking to them as Paul says that he prays to you, brothers and sisters. It is not asking the person to communicate back, unless he’s awake (because that’d be rude not respond back when someone talks to you).
The second is what most people think of when they think of praying to the Saints. This is where we pray to the Saints, either to do something for us like in the case of JPII heal the nun of Parkinson’s or like Peter to the Angels to free him of Prison (Acts 27:7) or to pray for us as Paul tells the family of G-d to pray for each other (Eph 6:18).
If you ever get the chance to listen to a Catholic pray to a Saint the most common formula you will hear is this: Saint so-and-so, pray for us.
We are effectively asking the most righteous of the family of G-d to pray for us (Prov 15:8 & 29; James 5:16), we do not believe they are G-d because we realize their power does not come from themselves (Phil 4:13), but from G-d.
If you have any more questions, don’t be afraid to ask.
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
This is what I was alluding to with my previous post. Idolatry.
Good catch, Stronghold.
[/quote]
Well, then I replied to both of you above this. 
How’s the Dwarf family going?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
This is what I was alluding to with my previous post. Idolatry.
Good catch, Stronghold.
[/quote]
Well, then I replied to both of you above this.
How’s the Dwarf family going?[/quote]
Bro Chris, Why do you keep dropping the O when referring to God?
I don’t get the whole Saint thing. Why would I pray to a Saint when I can just pray to God/Jesus? It’s like talking to customer service about broken shit when you could talk to the guy who made the damn thing.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
I don’t get the whole Saint thing. Why would I pray to a Saint when I can just pray to God/Jesus? It’s like talking to customer service about broken shit when you could talk to the guy who made the damn thing.[/quote]
Exactly.
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
~ John 14:6
Though not a catholic I think many of the traditions like this are pretty cool. I recently read a biography of John Paul, and he seemed to have been a very good man.
The way I understand it, beatification and possible saint hood can help out small towns and all where he grew up, so that’s a positive.
I’m curious what kind of things could be officially called miracles and maybe get him to sainthood. Would helping to end communism in Poland and things like that count?
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
I don’t get the whole Saint thing. Why would I pray to a Saint when I can just pray to God/Jesus? It’s like talking to customer service about broken shit when you could talk to the guy who made the damn thing.[/quote]
Exactly.
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
~ John 14:6[/quote]
This has also been my biggest complaint, as well as praying to Mary.
Could you explain this Bro Chris? thx
[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
I don’t get the whole Saint thing. Why would I pray to a Saint when I can just pray to God/Jesus? It’s like talking to customer service about broken shit when you could talk to the guy who made the damn thing.[/quote]
Exactly.
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
~ John 14:6[/quote]
This has also been my biggest complaint, as well as praying to Mary.
Could you explain this Bro Chris? thx[/quote]
Also the Rosary, Confession, and a number of other rituals that are done not in the spirit but by the letter.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Who gives a shit?[/quote]
I do…and a large chunk of the entire world.[/quote]
You’re catholic. We get it. But this kind of shit’s just boring.
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
I don’t get the whole Saint thing. Why would I pray to a Saint when I can just pray to God/Jesus? It’s like talking to customer service about broken shit when you could talk to the guy who made the damn thing.[/quote]
Exactly.
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
~ John 14:6[/quote]
This has also been my biggest complaint, as well as praying to Mary.
Could you explain this Bro Chris? thx[/quote]
Also the Rosary, Confession, and a number of other rituals that are done not in the spirit but by the letter.
[/quote]
The rosary is actually pretty neat. It’s really just a method of meditation. I’ve been trying something similar with Anglican prayer beads.
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
I don’t get the whole Saint thing. Why would I pray to a Saint when I can just pray to God/Jesus? It’s like talking to customer service about broken shit when you could talk to the guy who made the damn thing.[/quote]
Exactly.
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
~ John 14:6[/quote]
This has also been my biggest complaint, as well as praying to Mary.
Could you explain this Bro Chris? thx[/quote]
Also the Rosary, Confession, and a number of other rituals that are done not in the spirit but by the letter.
[/quote]
Yes, the Confession (room) has always bothered(confused) me. When all is required is asking forgiveness from God/Jesus.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
I don’t get the whole Saint thing. Why would I pray to a Saint when I can just pray to God/Jesus? It’s like talking to customer service about broken shit when you could talk to the guy who made the damn thing.[/quote]
Exactly.
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
~ John 14:6[/quote]
This has also been my biggest complaint, as well as praying to Mary.
Could you explain this Bro Chris? thx[/quote]
Also the Rosary, Confession, and a number of other rituals that are done not in the spirit but by the letter.
[/quote]
The rosary is actually pretty neat. It’s really just a method of meditation. I’ve been trying something similar with Anglican prayer beads.[/quote]
Does each bead represent something? That was my understanding w/o research.
[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
I don’t get the whole Saint thing. Why would I pray to a Saint when I can just pray to God/Jesus? It’s like talking to customer service about broken shit when you could talk to the guy who made the damn thing.[/quote]
Exactly.
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
~ John 14:6[/quote]
This has also been my biggest complaint, as well as praying to Mary.
Could you explain this Bro Chris? thx[/quote]
Also the Rosary, Confession, and a number of other rituals that are done not in the spirit but by the letter.
[/quote]
The rosary is actually pretty neat. It’s really just a method of meditation. I’ve been trying something similar with Anglican prayer beads.[/quote]
Does each bead represent something? That was my understanding w/o research.
[/quote]
The straight rosary, each type of bead marks a different prayer. But the rosary is really the praying, the beads just help you keep track. You can pray the rosary without the use of beads.
But maybe bc or a catholic should comment on this. I’m just going by memory on what I’ve read.
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
This is what I was alluding to with my previous post. Idolatry.
Good catch, Stronghold.
[/quote]
Well, then I replied to both of you above this.
How’s the Dwarf family going?[/quote]
Bro Chris, Why do you keep dropping the O when referring to God?
[/quote]
Habit.