Beatdown On Europe?

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
pat wrote:

It’s “Change we can believe in!” LOL!

Creepy, isn’t it? Was there ever a more utterly vacuous slogan? Why people don’t gag when they hear that sort of thing is beyond me. “Change!” - it’s one of those unexamined “values” lurking behind the relativism pose. [/quote]

Yeah, I tend to like to know what’s changing and what is it changing too before I cheer. If you are changing the tax system to a flat tax or fair tax, I cheer loudly. If you are lowering the speed limit, I am pissed off.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The fact i was born in a country that’s part of ‘the West’ is not my fault or accomplishment, and i couldn’t care less about my country’s history…

[/quote]

Would you fight to protect your country? Why?

…we must have a different understanding of what relative means Pat, because what you wrote here means to me that you do think that wrong and right áre relative = what a particular situation ís [right or wrong] depends upon the circumstances surrounding that situation, which means that right and wrong áre relative. Or not?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
ephrem wrote:
The fact i was born in a country that’s part of ‘the West’ is not my fault or accomplishment, and i couldn’t care less about my country’s history…

Would you fight to protect your country? Why?[/quote]

…i’d fight to protect myself and those close to me, if that means joining an army to protect my country, then yes. I would not join the military to serve abroad though…

[quote]ephrem wrote:
pat wrote:In given circumstances things are either right or they are wrong. That is not a relative thing

…we must have a different understanding of what relative means Pat, because what you wrote here means to me that you do think that wrong and right áre relative = what a particular situation ís [right or wrong] depends upon the circumstances surrounding that situation, which means that right and wrong áre relative. Or not?

[/quote]

rel·a·tiv·ism Audio Help (r�?l’�?-tÄ­-vÄ­z’�?m) Pronunciation Key
n. Philosophy
A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them.

That is relativism.

I certainly hope that one is not so obtuse as to think that circumstances are not pertinent to a choice. That’s 3rd grader rationalizations. In a given situation a choice is either right or wrong. It is not relative because in every case where the situation arises the right choice and the wrong choice are always the same. Not relative to what you think, but what is actually the case.

[quote]pat wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pat wrote:In given circumstances things are either right or they are wrong. That is not a relative thing

…we must have a different understanding of what relative means Pat, because what you wrote here means to me that you do think that wrong and right áre relative = what a particular situation ís [right or wrong] depends upon the circumstances surrounding that situation, which means that right and wrong áre relative. Or not?

rel·a·tiv·ism Audio Help (r�?l’�?-tÄ­-vÄ­z’�?m) Pronunciation Key
n. Philosophy
A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them.

That is relativism.

I certainly hope that one is not so obtuse as to think that circumstances are not pertinent to a choice. That’s 3rd grader rationalizations. In a given situation a choice is either right or wrong. It is not relative because in every case where the situation arises the right choice and the wrong choice are always the same. Not relative to what you think, but what is actually the case.[/quote]

…doesn’t it come down to how you assess the circumstances surrounding a given situation to determin whether something is right or wrong? I don’t quite understand where you stop deciding for yourself, based on the circumstances surrounding the situation, what is right or wrong and when that becomes self-evident. I’m honestly confused about what for you constitutes relativism and how that differs from how you assess such situations…

…you say ‘choice’ is right or wrong in a given situation, but i though we were talking about something else; namely that murder isn’t always wrong. That the ethics of murder are relative given the situation. Please enlighten me…

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:
aussie486 wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:

The only nation to ever use the nukes is America. If anything the rest of the world should demand they disarm.

Pig’s arse they should, their use was justified, u should thank your lucky stars that America exists.

The bombs killed 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki mostly civilians. Plus the radiation deaths since. Who’s next?

How many did the Japanese kill? I have seen estimates of Chinese civilian casualties of 9 to 16 million people. I don’t know how many were due to direct Japanese action.

How many would have died had we invaded their home islands?

Chomsky ignores these trivialities and rages against the US for daring to kill people while stopping the poor Japanese.

It stuns me that people do not understand this. [/quote]

I understand that other countries have committed atrocities as well as America. Point is America isn’t exactly in a position to be preaching about who can and can’t have nukes. When will be the next time they ‘must’ be used.

Well, things are going well in Iraq. 150000 civilian deaths so far. I’m sure thats helping with preserving your freedom.

I really don’t see how some of you can be so far right with all this shit going on. Like it’s the best thing we can do.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
ephrem wrote:
The fact i was born in a country that’s part of ‘the West’ is not my fault or accomplishment, and i couldn’t care less about my country’s history…

Would you fight to protect your country? Why?

…i’d fight to protect myself and those close to me, if that means joining an army to protect my country, then yes. I would not join the military to serve abroad though…

[/quote]

What if some country’s leaders, distant from you, said: “We are going to exterminate you. We are going to send people with hidden bombs to blow up daycare centers. We will unleash poisons on busses, trains, and planes. Nothing you can say will change our minds. We will kill you or you must kill us!”

Are you going to wait for them to move first?

[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:
Well, things are going well in Iraq. 150000 civilian deaths so far. I’m sure thats helping with preserving your freedom.

I really don’t see how some of you can be so far right with all this shit going on. Like it’s the best thing we can do.
[/quote]

Iraq is a mess because we fought a PC war. Real war is horrible. Blowing up a few buildings and leaving a country pretty intact is stupid.

We should have turned Iraq (and Iran) into deserts. Or firebombed both just like Japan and Germany. Tehran should have been the new Dresden.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

We should have turned Iraq (and Iran) into deserts. Or firebombed both just like Japan and Germany. Tehran should have been the new Dresden.

[/quote]

How fucking appalling. Please tell me this is just your trolling shtick?

I think the problem with Iraq, was that we beat their ass too quick.

If they were still holding out in organized governmental force our presence would be more justified.

However, it has not been this way.

Thus instead, we kicked their ass real quick, and now have to fight teh civilian population as ‘occupiers.’

[quote]Guerrero wrote:
I think the problem with Iraq, was that we beat their ass too quick.
[/quote]

That’s what happens when a hyperpower attacks a country that’s already in shambles. Iraq was as much a threat to the US as Botswana is a threat to China.

[quote]Guerrero wrote:
I think the problem with Iraq, was that we beat their ass too quick.

If they were still holding out in organized governmental force our presence would be more justified.

However, it has not been this way.

Thus instead, we kicked their ass real quick, and now have to fight teh civilian population as ‘occupiers.’[/quote]

And what was the reason for beating their asses?

[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:
aussie486 wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:

The only nation to ever use the nukes is America. If anything the rest of the world should demand they disarm.

Pig’s arse they should, their use was justified, u should thank your lucky stars that America exists.

The bombs killed 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki mostly civilians. Plus the radiation deaths since. Who’s next?

How many did the Japanese kill? I have seen estimates of Chinese civilian casualties of 9 to 16 million people. I don’t know how many were due to direct Japanese action.

How many would have died had we invaded their home islands?

Chomsky ignores these trivialities and rages against the US for daring to kill people while stopping the poor Japanese.

It stuns me that people do not understand this.

I understand that other countries have committed atrocities as well as America. Point is America isn’t exactly in a position to be preaching about who can and can’t have nukes. When will be the next time they ‘must’ be used.

Well, things are going well in Iraq. 150000 civilian deaths so far. I’m sure thats helping with preserving your freedom.

I really don’t see how some of you can be so far right with all this shit going on. Like it’s the best thing we can do.
[/quote]

Of course we can and must preach who should have nukes while we still have the upper hand. Why would we want Iran to get them and possibly use them? What possible sense would that make?

Look at all the victims in Iraq. Most of them were killed by the bad guys and you want the bad guys to obtain nukes?

[quote]lixy wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:

You have no clue what relativism is. Read up:

[/quote]

hah! And you, my good man, obviously have no clue about how hotly contested this term is.

Sorry, Lixy, the wikipedia entry you provided is bogus & one-sided. It is long on Richard Rorty type fluffery, and gives short (re: nearly non-existent) shrift to the far profounder criticisms of both the term itself, and the “theorists” (usually not formal philosophers) who wield the term like a cudgel in American universities.

No formal philosopher would take the definitions provided therein seriously. There is a broad and deep literature establishing the incoherence of relativism as you/Wikki have defined it. Just for example: relativism cannot be the opposite of absolutism because relativism contains an absolutist claim: that “all truth is relative.” No serious philosopher would deny this. This (that “relativism contains its own thinly veiled absolutism”) is precisely why Pope Benedict refers to “the dictatorship of relativism.”

Now, before you go find a response to my example: I am entirely aware of (and can faithfully reproduce) what those responses are. I am not a philosopher (thank god!) However, I am sorry to admit that I spent an entire semester in a small, graduate level seminar on “relativism vs. objectivity.” Anyone who fairly assesses all the arguments, and counter arguments, and so on, will find that relativism is an incoherent philosophical term that ultimately falls apart under real scrutiny.

But, you see, the problem is, it’s an awfully useful (because uniquely powerful, see below) term for certain types of people, which explains its staying power. You are probably aware, for example, of how deeply the term is connected with deconstruction theory and linguistic/literary theories. At any rate, “relativism,” both in and outside the American university, is a faux philosophical term that is wielded as a pseudo-intellectual defense against reasoned arguments.

For example: don’t like the views of your opponent in a debate? Dismiss your interlocutor with “it’s all relative.” Don’t agree with them? “It’s all relative.” Losing an argument? “It’s all relative.” Over your head intellectually? “It’s all relative.” And so, discussions and debates are terminated, intellectual inquiry is smothered, communication is squelched, with a single, all-purpose, pseudo-intellectual mind widget: relativism.

Now, you might ask yourself, as formal philosophers tirelessly do: if, indeed, “it’s all relative,” and if we can establish no shared, universal values & meanings, what is the point of discussing anything? After all, what is there to discuss? One can go even deeper on this same point, and ask: absent shared, universal values and meanings, how we are even able to communicate at all? And so on…until we all slip comfortably numb into our solipsistic little worlds, repeating the banal mantra to ourselves, “it’s all relative” - a situation with which Rorty, bizarrely enough, is perfectly fine. “Relativism,” Lixy, is the (absolute) queen of the weasel words.

At bottom, the relativist argument is a power grab. It is a meaningless term, a cipher, a nothing, which covers up it’s own, virulent form of absolutism. It is a power grab because it doesn’t allow for, cannot even theoretically postulate the existence of, reasoned discussion, especially about itself. It is a power grab because beneath the smiley face, and the rising pitch on terminals to make assertions sound like queries, and the egalitarian rhetoric, is the assertion of unexamined (how can they be examined, “it’s all relative”!) social and political agendas. Think smiley face with a fucking Hitler mustache and you’re pretty close to understanding the fascist nature of “Relativism.”

Let me take all this a step further: to deny the universal status of any and all truth statements is to deny the existence of truth. What is so hard about this to understand? I’ll say it again, relativism is merely an updated nihilism.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:
aussie486 wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:

The only nation to ever use the nukes is America. If anything the rest of the world should demand they disarm.

Pig’s arse they should, their use was justified, u should thank your lucky stars that America exists.

The bombs killed 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki mostly civilians. Plus the radiation deaths since. Who’s next?

How many did the Japanese kill? I have seen estimates of Chinese civilian casualties of 9 to 16 million people. I don’t know how many were due to direct Japanese action.

How many would have died had we invaded their home islands?

Chomsky ignores these trivialities and rages against the US for daring to kill people while stopping the poor Japanese.

It stuns me that people do not understand this.

I understand that other countries have committed atrocities as well as America. Point is America isn’t exactly in a position to be preaching about who can and can’t have nukes. When will be the next time they ‘must’ be used.

Well, things are going well in Iraq. 150000 civilian deaths so far. I’m sure thats helping with preserving your freedom.

I really don’t see how some of you can be so far right with all this shit going on. Like it’s the best thing we can do.

Of course we can and must preach who should have nukes while we still have the upper hand. Why would we want Iran to get them and possibly use them? What possible sense would that make?

Look at all the victims in Iraq. Most of them were killed by the bad guys and you want the bad guys to obtain nukes? [/quote]

Most of them were killed by the bad guys? I think if you were more vague it would help, lol. Who are the bad guys again? It seems there is even some confusion on the iraqi’s behalf on that subject as well.
Nobody ever answers the question, why do we think we know better than other countries. Iran may or may not be trying to get nukes. if they are, i am sure it is because they think it is neccesary. why are they wrong and we are right? they havent killed any civilians with nukes, but we have.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Of course we can and must preach who should have nukes while we still have the upper hand. Why would we want Iran to get them and possibly use them? What possible sense would that make?

Look at all the victims in Iraq. Most of them were killed by the bad guys and you want the bad guys to obtain nukes? [/quote]

Exactly. Does anyone here really believe that the world would be safer if Iran obtained nuclear weapons?

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Let me take all this a step further: to deny the universal status of any and all truth statements is to deny the existence of truth. What is so hard about this to understand? I’ll say it again, relativism is merely an updated nihilism.[/quote]

…from a philosophical viewpoint nothing substantial can be said about truth because first you’d have to establish if said truth is universal. If a truth is not universal, it’s relative and thus meaningless as truth…

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Of course we can and must preach who should have nukes while we still have the upper hand. Why would we want Iran to get them and possibly use them? What possible sense would that make?

Look at all the victims in Iraq. Most of them were killed by the bad guys and you want the bad guys to obtain nukes?

Exactly. Does anyone here really believe that the world would be safer if Iran obtained nuclear weapons? [/quote]

It’s all relative. Maybe not here, but an iranian might think otherwise.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…from a philosophical viewpoint nothing substantial can be said about truth because first you’d have to establish if said truth is universal. If a truth is not universal, it’s relative and thus meaningless as truth…

[/quote]

You do realize you are making an absolute truth claim here, right? If you are not aware of the irony of what you just said, I can’t help you - at least not over the internet.