Wait a minute, he didn’t know they were steroids.
Mr. Pushups I have to agree with you. Although a long time Atlanta Braves fan circa early 1980’s my favorite player by far in the MLB is Barry Bonds with Ken Griffey used to be a close second. Re: Bonds. The guys work ethic is pretty amazing and talent on a level of his own.
Many people want to take away from his accomplishments because of the alleged (i say this because I am not one to accuse unless I know that absolute cold hard facts, but also i am not ignorant either)steroid use. But even though his size, strength and power has mainly come in the last 5 years even before that he had a period where he won 3 MVP’s in a span of 5 years (1990’s). While in Pittsburgh he got a bad rap for 2 things A) he seemed to choke during the post season and B) he didn’t like being bothered by the press and when did give interviews spoke his mind.
Most people when asking a question have a certain answer they have already assumed the person will say but not with Barry. He doesn’t tell you what you want to hear he just tells you how he sees it. And i respect him for that. It’s no one’s business what he does or may do to prepare for his profession if he doesn’t want to tell anyone. It’s not congress’s , it’s not the damn media and it sure as hell isn’t any of our business if he wants to stay private.
Now as for the people who claim he is a cheater. Has he ever been convicted or proven guilty? To my knowledge, no. Can I assume, yeah. However, I think this argument of discussion can be solved at least from my perception by a quote of Charlie Francis’,
“Steroids are so ubiquitious, so omnipresent in sport and have been for decades. At first you think, oh there are drugs involved things are not as they appear but then when you realize the true extent of it things are as they appear the winner is the winner and second and second and third is third. There is a level playing field out there, it’s just not the level playing field you thought it was.”
[quote]P-DOG wrote:
singram wrote:
RJ24 wrote:
I think Barry’s great too. Only a fool would attribute his recent success to steroids alone. He’s been great ever since he’s been in the league.
RJ
He was a sure fire Hall of Famer before his steriod use,but they did contribute to him hitting 30 a year to hitting over 40.If he hadn’t jucied,he’d probably would’ve hit around 550 homers.He’d be in the same catagory with Mantle and Ted Williams,which is still fucking awesome.It’s a shame Griffey got hurt the past 5 years,I think he’d would’ve eventually broke the Homerun record without steriods,the guy is pretty lanky.
[/quote]Wow! Can you elaborate on a few things for me please?
A) how do you know if and when he started using?[/quote]
He testified in court he did steriods unknowingly in 00 and 01 when his homers went from 30-35 to 73.Look at his pics pre and post 1999,his head is larger,probably from growth hormones.[/quote]
B)How did you calculate the increase in number of hr’s due to steroid use?[/quote]
Because players in their late 30’s just don’t start hitting 20 to 30 more homers per season more than thier average without some help of Viatmin S.[/quote]
C) How do you know if Jr. is juicing or not?[/quote]
Don’t know for sure,but his body is pretty slim and lanky.But Rafael Palmerio didn’t look like a jucier either,so who knows?[/quote]
There is an article T-Mag did last year about this time dicussing steriod use in baseball.It was a rountable with I think TC and two baseball experts.I’ll put up the link when I find. [/quote]
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Baseball is full of cheats.
I dislike Bonds because he is a jackass. I don’t care how good he is.
[/quote]
This pretty much says it all. I don’t really care for Bonds, but hundreds of players were on the juice before it was tested for. Then there’s greenies and corked bats and scuffed balls, etc…
I saved this article awhile ago, talks about Bonds and steroids and records and history, etc. It’s 2 or 3 years old:
Barry Bonds has tied his godfather, and he’s about to assume sole possession of third place on the all-time home run list. Willie Mays is so pumped that he would like to hand Barry his Olympic torch to carry around the basepaths.
But how are we supposed to feel about this? Given all the rumors of the past few years and all the BALCO reports of the past winter, how are fans supposed to feel now that one of the most revered players in baseball history is going to be eclipsed by someone who has been accused of having more chemicals in his body than Keith Richards on New Year’s Eve?
I’ll tell you how. We should stand up and applaud.
Barry Bonds
We should all stand up and applaud Barry Bonds for his performance.
I know, I know. Bonds has been named in the BALCO investigation and his personal trainer is a prime target. He has been suspected of using steroids for several years and the size of his head supposedly rivals Mr. Met’s. But I also know that Bonds has been so much better than everyone else that his performance can’t be explained by any performance enhancer short of weapons-grade plutonium.
Mariners second baseman Bret Boone has said he is so in awe of Bonds that he would intentionally walk him every time first base is open, no matter who the next hitter is. “Even if Albert Pujols was on-deck, I’d walk him.”
Besides, I’ve had it up to the top hair in Randy Johnson’s mullet with all this steroid hysteria. I’m tired of reading how the scandal is going to cast a black cloud over baseball all season, and how all the recent performances should carry an asterisk. Yes, steroids are bad and baseball should work to try to eliminate them. But how much longer is baseball supposed to be the nation’s official punchline for steroids when there is another sports league filled with 220-pound safeties, 260-pound quarterbacks and 330-pound linemen?
You want to know why so many people are upset about steroid use in baseball? It’s certainly not out of any concern for the health of players – if injury risk and long-term health were really a concern, fans would insist that the NFL be shut down immediately. It’s because they don’t want anything to disturb their perception of the all-important home run statistics.
“The Players Association and MLB should be concerned about the health of the players, but that’s not a reason the fans want to see it cleaned up,” Paul Molitor says. “You have people who have followed this game for a long time and if people are going to be compared from generation to generation, they want people to play under the same guidelines and the same rules.”
And that’s what this all comes down to. Not whether steroid use is dangerous, nor whether steroid use is cheating. Only that steroid use means we don’t instantly know how to regard a home run record.
Cecil Fielder
Cecil Fielder came out of nowhere to homer 51 times in 1990.
Cecil Fielder complained this week that when he reached the 50-homer mark in 1990 he was the first player to do so in 13 years (it was such a big deal that the Detroit newpapers printed special sections when he hit No. 50) – and then 10 players did it in the next 13 years. “Everything is speculation,” he told Florida Today. “But I look back on some of the guys that hit 50 home runs after I did and say, ‘Damn. OK. He did it?’ I don’t know.”
Frankly, with increased weight programs, smaller ballparks, expanded leagues, diluted pitching and smaller strike zones, the question is not why there have been so many 50-homer seasons recently, but why players hit that many home runs only twice from 1966-1994. After all, players reached the 50-homer mark eight times from 1947-65.
Besides, Fielder hit 37 career home runs in his first four big-league seasons and spent 1989 in Japan before returning to the majors in 1990. The Twins even complained that Detroit failed to bring the required four regulars to a spring training game in Orlando because Fielder wasn’t good enough to be counted in that role. So when he went out and hit his 51, I imagine a few people were shaking their heads and muttering, “Damn. OK. He did it?”
But that’s the mystery and beauty of baseball. These things happen, and we don’t know why.
The home run record was 24 when Ruth hit 29 in 1919, and then he hit 54 the next year (more than every other team but one) and 59 the next. Steroids didn’t even exist then – there goes Jeff Kent’s theory – yet Ruth more than doubled the record in three years. How was that possible?
Other than 1961, Roger Maris only twice hit as many as 30 home runs in a season, and he never hit as many as 40. So how did he hit 61 in that magical 1961 season?
And while you’re answering those questions, kindly explain how Davey Johnson hit five home runs in 1972, and then hit 43 in 1973 but just 31 the remainder of his career. And tell me how Kirby Puckett hit four home runs in his first 1,251 at-bats and then suddenly hit 31 in his third season. And then tell me how Gary Gaetti could hit 21 home runs in 584 at-bats in 1983, then hit just five in 588 at-bats in 1984 and then hit 20 in 560 at-bats in 1985 (and you might as well tell Gary as well, because he has never figured it out himself).
Babe Ruth
Babe Ruth shattered home run records long before steroids.
And finally, explain how Mays and Mickey Mantle both stood less than 6 feet tall and weighed less than 200 pounds and yet each still had more 50-homer seasons (two apiece) than Bonds has (just one).
Yes, steroids are having an effect on baseball, and perhaps Bonds has been aided by them (though neither Cecil Fielder nor President Bush nor Hans Blix knows for sure). But he’s still better than anyone else has been – suspected users and presumed non-users alike – and he deserves recognition.
So take a deep breath from the steroid hysterics and clap both for what Bonds has done in this era and for what his godfather did in his.
And then let us have no more of this ridiculous talk of tainted records and asterisks. Unless you’re also prepared to put them next to Ruth for the home runs he hit when baseball barred minorities from the field. And next to Joe DiMaggio’s hitting streak for the same reason. And Hack Wilson’s RBI record. And Ted Williams’ .406 season. And Walter Johnson’s ERA mark, and on and on and on …
[quote]snipeout wrote:
A-ROD? Anyone…[/quote]
you mean puffy mcblowlips ?
[quote]swivel wrote:
snipeout wrote:
A-ROD? Anyone…
you mean puffy mcblowlips ?
[/quote]
A-ROD is the second most hated man in baseball?
I don’t get it. He is kind of a fake, in that corporate ass-kisser way, but whatever, the dude can play ball.
I predict he’ll beat whatever Bonds ends up with. He’ll retire as the HR/RBI king. The dude is averaging 44 HR/120 RBI season lifetime and he is just now entering the hitter’s prime. Scary.
Anyway. Here’s some one more one-season possible ‘roid’ wonders.
Luis Gonzalez - DBacks - 58(?) HR in 1998 hasn’t come close since.
Brady Anderson - Orioles - 50 HR in 1996 was the EAS cover boy (and a rumored homo) - I’m pretty sure that dude juiced big time.
[quote]singram wrote:
Look at his pics pre and post 1999,his head is larger,probably from growth hormones.
[/quote]
This comment is stupid. If someone was taking enough growth hormone to cause acromegaly, there would be more evidence than having a big head. He does not show any signs of that and simply having a large skull is not indicative of growth hormone use. Beyond that, his gains in muscle mass are not so outstanding as to focus so intently on drug use. If most of the people on this site aren’t making similar progress, you have no one to blame but yourself.
I won’t even give an opinion about the man because I don’t follow baseball closely. I think the entire “witch hunt”, however, is ridiculous and damaging to the scientific advancement and use of many hormones in disease prevention and anti-aging treatment.
[quote]OARSMAN wrote:
swivel wrote:
snipeout wrote:
A-ROD? Anyone…
you mean puffy mcblowlips ?
A-ROD is the second most hated man in baseball?
I don’t get it. He is kind of a fake, in that corporate ass-kisser way, but whatever, the dude can play ball.
I predict he’ll beat whatever Bonds ends up with. He’ll retire as the HR/RBI king. The dude is averaging 44 HR/120 RBI season lifetime and he is just now entering the hitter’s prime. Scary.
Anyway. Here’s some one more one-season possible ‘roid’ wonders.
Luis Gonzalez - DBacks - 58(?) HR in 1998 hasn’t come close since.
Brady Anderson - Orioles - 50 HR in 1996 was the EAS cover boy (and a rumored homo) - I’m pretty sure that dude juiced big time.
[/quote]
Roger Maris hit 61 homers in 1961, never came close again. How’d he do it?
As I said before, obviously many players have juiced over the last 20 years. But it’s silly to draw conclusions from one year anomalies and assume roids are the excuse. While I would bet Anderson has done some stuff, Luis Gonzalez has never been a big guy and wasn’t in 2001 when he hit 57. And even in Anderson’s case, why do steroids get the credit for his 50 homer season? Did he just take better roids that year? I guess he just decided to stop taking them the next year and return to his previous performance levels?
BTW, for the most part hitters are in their primes between 26 and 32, so it’s likely Rodriguez will see an overall decline in his numbers in the next few years. He’s still awesome though.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
singram wrote:
Look at his pics pre and post 1999,his head is larger,probably from growth hormones.
This comment is stupid. If someone was taking enough growth hormone to cause acromegaly, there would be more evidence than having a big head. He does not show any signs of that and simply having a large skull is not indicative of growth hormone use. Beyond that, his gains in muscle mass are not so outstanding as to focus so intently on drug use. If most of the people on this site aren’t making similar progress, you have no one to blame but yourself.
I won’t even give an opinion about the man because I don’t follow baseball closely. I think the entire “witch hunt”, however, is ridiculous and damaging to the scientific advancement and use of many hormones in disease prevention and anti-aging treatment.[/quote]
Then how did his entire skull get so huge in his late 30’s.And it didn’t get fat either.I don’t know if his hands got huge,but I can defenitly do a quick google and find out.And in the span of a year and a half,his listed weight from 180 to 230.
Now,is a highly trained athlete in his mid to late 30’s gonna put that much LBM in that span without the help of andrgens?I think not.He’s even testified in the Balco case that he took steriods on accident,because he thought it was Flaxseed oil.Please.
[quote]singram wrote:
Then how did his entire skull get so huge in his late 30’s.And it didn’t get fat either.I don’t know if his hands got huge,but I can defenitly do a quick google and find out.And in the span of a year and a half,his listed weight from 180 to 230.[/quote]
Acromegaly isn’t just “skull growth”. You would actually see more growth in the mandible and brow ridges. He isn’t showing that. Perhaps you simply didn’t pay attention to his head before.
As far as his weight, Da Freak just gained that much in less than two months. When was his weight taken both times? I am letting you know that his physical changes are not so great that they are impossible of simulating naturally. Therefore, regardless of what he has done, acting like steroids are the soul cause of any success he has is shortsighted, especially on a bodybuilding forum.
This is not acromegaly.
THIS is acromegaly.
Another example might be more along the lines of Jay Cutler where his forehead is showing more growth.
I have to agree with the Prof. on this one. Bonds has been on basically a seven or eight year long bulk. I get the impression he has the genetics for substantial size but never got it because of shortcomings in diet and weight training- mainly the former. That said, even without great genetics for growth he isn’t exceptionally large for a guy his height and age who is has been training properly for several years. I don’t doubt that he used the THG and whatever else, but I seriously doubt that the anabolics made a tremendous difference in his size. Maybe he would be five or even ten pounds lighter. Maybe. More likely, not using would have just delayed him filling out to his present weight for a year. No matter how you cut it, the improvement possible through the agents he was using isn’t sufficient to explain his dominance.
That said, he does come across as a raging asshole.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
singram wrote:
Then how did his entire skull get so huge in his late 30’s.And it didn’t get fat either.I don’t know if his hands got huge,but I can defenitly do a quick google and find out.And in the span of a year and a half,his listed weight from 180 to 230.
Acromegaly isn’t just “skull growth”. You would actually see more growth in the mandible and brow ridges. He isn’t showing that. Perhaps you simply didn’t pay attention to his head before.
As far as his weight, Da Freak just gained that much in less than two months. When was his weight taken both times? I am letting you know that his physical changes are not so great that they are impossible of simulating naturally. Therefore, regardless of what he has done, acting like steroids are the soul cause of any success he has is shortsighted, especially on a bodybuilding forum.[/quote]
Well,I agree with you on his talent.My first post on this thread I said that the guy was a sure-fire HOFer before the muscle growth.But he admited to roid use in court,but said he thought it was flaxseed he was taking.So,I think his weight gain was enhanced by steriods.As far as the growth hormone,Professer X 1…singram 0.His earlier pics he does have more defined cheek bones than he does now,which means his BF% is probably higher now and he had hair back then,which probably hid his big noggin.
Here’s his skinny pics from his rookie year in 87
I really enjoy the fact that most of you still believe that professional athletes who use steriods are cheaters. I hope when all of you die and get to where ever your headed, ask God or his counterpart the total # of pro, olympic, or even amateur atheletes who are, have been or will use anabolics during thier careers. It will be an astounding #. I will be laughing.
Then ask him to give you the # of pro atheletes who have never used anabolics or “performance enhancing drugs”. You will all be hurt.
If any of you honestly believe that billion dollar industries such as sports and marketing don’t advocate, suggest, or even buy the athletes thier drugs your all very confused. The only reason people in pro sports don’t pop positive on drug tests is becuase they aren’t being given, or they’ve come w/ some new shit like BALCO did that doesn’t show on tests.
There are thousands of labs like BALCO all across the U.S. doing exactly what Conte did keeping athletes in shape, making money, and wowing the crowds, all for one quest. The almighty dollar. Keep up the open bad talk about Mr. Bonds, and someday when you all find out the truth about this world, start bad talking yourselves for supporting those same industries.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
singram wrote:
Look at his pics pre and post 1999,his head is larger,probably from growth hormones.
This comment is stupid. If someone was taking enough growth hormone to cause acromegaly, there would be more evidence than having a big head. He does not show any signs of that and simply having a large skull is not indicative of growth hormone use. Beyond that, his gains in muscle mass are not so outstanding as to focus so intently on drug use. If most of the people on this site aren’t making similar progress, you have no one to blame but yourself.
I won’t even give an opinion about the man because I don’t follow baseball closely. I think the entire “witch hunt”, however, is ridiculous and damaging to the scientific advancement and use of many hormones in disease prevention and anti-aging treatment.[/quote]
I am 39 years old. I have a couple old fitted caps from my 20’s and my head is too big for them now.
I have never taken any growth hormone, steroid, pro-hormone etc.
My supplements have been limited to protein powder and some creatine.
[quote]brushga wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Baseball is full of cheats.
I dislike Bonds because he is a jackass. I don’t care how good he is.
This pretty much says it all. I don’t really care for Bonds, but hundreds of players were on the juice before it was tested for. Then there’s greenies and corked bats and scuffed balls, etc…[/quote]
Exactly. People have been cheating in baseball for a hundred years. I don’t dislike him because he may or may not have cheated. I dislike him because he is a jerk.
No surprise because he grew up as baseball royalty and he acts like royalty.
Wow! Can you elaborate on a few things for me please?
A) how do you know if and when he started using?
He testified in court he did steriods unknowingly in 00 and 01 when his homers went from 30-35 to 73.Look at his pics pre and post 1999,his head is larger,probably from growth hormones.
Oh thats right, in 00 and 01 when he already had 500+ career homers.
B)How did you calculate the increase in number of hr’s due to steroid use?
Because players in their late 30’s just don’t start hitting 20 to 30 more homers per season more than thier average without some help of Viatmin S.
he had one season where this was the case. and again how can you make such a definite claim?
C) How do you know if Jr. is juicing or not?
Don’t know for sure,but his body is pretty slim and lanky.But Rafael Palmerio didn’t look like a jucier either,so who knows?
I think you pretty much proved my point for me with this one.
There is an article T-Mag did last year about this time dicussing steriod use in baseball.It was a rountable with I think TC and two baseball experts.I’ll put up the link when I find.
ive already read it. it proves nothing.