Barry Bonds and The Fans

Off Topic
101

[quote]Kalle wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Kalle wrote:
…

This is the same type of stupid gossip talk girls have about what actress is cheating and which one is addicted to painkillers…

Perhaps you are on the wrong website. This is a site about training and has a section dedicated to steroids.

I don’t know why you would expect people not to post their thoughts on the subject.

I am on the wrong website?
Why? Because I don’t want to gossip about who may or may not be on steriods?

Yes the website has a steriod section but that section is for information about steriods. Not to post who you think is juicing because you have a “felling.”

Of course I expect people to talk about the subject, that is exactly what I am doing, talking about the subject.

I will play along with your game on who I think is juicing.

I think Competitive eater Joey Chestnut is on roids. I mean Kobyashi was unstopable for 6 years so Chestnut knew he needed some help to break the record. In ONE YEAR he went from eating 51 hotdogs to 66!! and 59 1/2 in a qualifer!!! You can not make progress like that naturally! Plus I think he gained 5lbs of muscle to.

Thoughts?[/quote]

I think you are totally missing the point. We have some high level athletes extending their careers and playing at high levels like never before. It is likely due to steroid use.

You want to close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears and pretend it isn’t happening.

I want to discuss it and find out more without the ridiculous media coverage.

102

[quote]Scotacus wrote:
You never hear about segregation having any bearing on the accomplishments of pre-Robinson baseball. Not a peep, which is pretty staggering.[/quote]

Actually, if you’re a hardcore baseball fan (and, as such, have had discussions with others of the same type), you would probably have heard on several occasions that had Leroy “Satchel” Paige been in “the show” during his prime, none other than Babe Ruth (not to mention other stars of the day) would not have had anywhere close to the numbers they put up.

Some would even argue that Paige was the best pitcher ever. Sadly, he was well beyond his best years by the time Robinson broke the barrier.

I know this isn’t discussed in the mass media much, but it is a “peep” at least. And Paige is just the tip of the iceberg. It’s all conjecture obviously, but I think that’s saying something that at least a few people out there recognize the ridiculous amount of talent that was flowing through the Negro Leagues.

/hijack

103

[quote]squattin600 wrote:
I love how the mere mention of Clemens juicing brings out the die hard defenders. Meanwhile it is OK to rip on Barry over speculation.

I believe that double standard is the reason why Clemens was brought into the discussion.

[/quote]

Hmm…I have seen it many times as an outside observer to the “baseball and steroids” conversation (people eager to jump on Bonds’ shit but quick to defend Clemens). Very interesting point you make.

104

[quote]rainjack wrote:
on edge wrote:

Ditto for Ryan’s 7 great games. And just how is that my logic? Obviously he was a great pitcher and had more than 7 great games. I don’t know about the beginning of his career, but I don’t need to check to see if he was striking out as many batters at the end of his career as he did at the peak of his career. He didn’t.

He had 301 K’s at 42. Only his last season was he not striking out more people than he did in his early years.

I’m not going to get into a pissing contest over this - as a simple check of the facts will prove my point.

Anyhow -

To say a player must be juicing simply because they perform at a high level after 40 is rather silly given the current knowledge of proper training and nutrition.

[/quote]

It doesn’t become a pissing match if the argument continues to evolve. However, when you continue to take my points wrong and bring in irrelevant information, it gets frustrating.

Again… Ryan had no dip in his career (seasonal - not game to game) only to come back as strong as ever. Clemens clearly did. Weather or not the resurgence is due to assistance, different league, a sweet arrangement with the Astros or something else is debatable.

You know my stance. I think probably from assistance. I looked up the average of the top 5 ERA’s in the NL Vs the average of the top 5 in the AL. the difference was .25. the difference for Clemmens is nearly 2. As far as traveling with the team, he only stayed home when he wasn’t scheduled to pitch.

I don’t know what Clemen’s home life is like, but for me, it’s more work to be home with the kids than it is out on the road. Finally, it’s early to say, but so far, he’s pitching pretty damn well back in NY.

105

  1. It’s a common misconception that “we don’t really know if Barry used steroids.” Yes we do…Barry Bonds admitted that he used steroids. He just claims that he did so unknowingly (topically and ingested). I don’t buy the unknowingly part…too much evidence found in his trainer’s home and workplace suggest that Bonds had a precisely scheduled, aggressive steroids protocol.

  2. Anyone that says strength doesn’t help you hit the ball has never played baseball. I played baseball; was a very high-percentage on-base type of contact hitter…until my junior year in college. I got serious about weightlifting at that time and gained about 25 lbs over the summer.

That year I maintained my ability to make contact, and the ball was literally jumping off of my bat. I was effortlessly hitting home runs on pitches that would’ve just been hard line drives in the past. You’ve got to be blind if you look at Barry’s home run numbers, match them up to his increases in size and tell me there’s no correlation.

That said, his patience at the plate, hand speed, and incredible ability to identify pitches is all natural. So many baseball players obviously use steroids it’s all a joke to me anyway. Either prevent them all from using, or let them all use.

106

[quote]squattin600 wrote:
I love how the mere mention of Clemens juicing brings out the die hard defenders. Meanwhile it is OK to rip on Barry over speculation.

I believe that double standard is the reason why Clemens was brought into the discussion.

[/quote]

I am glad someone got the point I was trying to make.

I regret bringing Clemens into this now that it just sprung a completly diffrent debate than I inteded. I just wanted to point out the double standards.

Such as Shawn Merriman of the San Diego Chargers testing positive last year, getting a 4 game suspension blaming “spiked” supplments, making one apperance on NFL network where everyone said “I hope this misunderstanding gets taking care of, it is horrible this is happening to you.”

The NFL handled their PR right about the sitution where baseball hasn’t

Drugs are rampant in every sport the NFL knows this, MLB knows this, etc…

Bonds just get black balled by the media because fans and sportswriters don’t like him.

Chances are if a sportswriter talks about steriods he talks about BARRY BONDS and steriods, not steriods in sports.

The double standard is just silly.

107

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Kalle wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Kalle wrote:
…

This is the same type of stupid gossip talk girls have about what actress is cheating and which one is addicted to painkillers…

Perhaps you are on the wrong website. This is a site about training and has a section dedicated to steroids.

I don’t know why you would expect people not to post their thoughts on the subject.

I am on the wrong website?
Why? Because I don’t want to gossip about who may or may not be on steriods?

Yes the website has a steriod section but that section is for information about steriods. Not to post who you think is juicing because you have a “felling.”

Of course I expect people to talk about the subject, that is exactly what I am doing, talking about the subject.

I will play along with your game on who I think is juicing.

I think Competitive eater Joey Chestnut is on roids. I mean Kobyashi was unstopable for 6 years so Chestnut knew he needed some help to break the record. In ONE YEAR he went from eating 51 hotdogs to 66!! and 59 1/2 in a qualifer!!! You can not make progress like that naturally! Plus I think he gained 5lbs of muscle to.

Thoughts?

I think you are totally missing the point. We have some high level athletes extending their careers and playing at high levels like never before. It is likely due to steroid use.

You want to close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears and pretend it isn’t happening.

I want to discuss it and find out more without the ridiculous media coverage.[/quote]

Fair enough, I think we are just missing each others points.

I am clearly aware that steriods is a part of modern sports.

I just don’t like how lots of people diminish accomplishments of great athletes because of steriods.

“Barry Bonds is the best hitter of all time but he is on roids”

or

“Roger Clemens is one of the best pitchers of all time but I think he does roids.”

See what I mean?

Baseball players since the start of baseball have looked for an advantage, if steriods where around when Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb where playing, well chances are better than 50% they would have dabbled as well.

Baseball is not any less pure now than it ever was.

108

[quote]Moriarty wrote:

  1. It’s a common misconception that “we don’t really know if Barry used steroids.” Yes we do…Barry Bonds admitted that he used steroids. He just claims that he did so unknowingly (topically and ingested). I don’t buy the unknowingly part…too much evidence found in his trainer’s home and workplace suggest that Bonds had a precisely scheduled, aggressive steroids protocol.

  2. Anyone that says strength doesn’t help you hit the ball has never played baseball. I played baseball; was a very high-percentage on-base type of contact hitter…until my junior year in college. I got serious about weightlifting at that time and gained about 25 lbs over the summer.

That year I maintained my ability to make contact, and the ball was literally jumping off of my bat. I was effortlessly hitting home runs on pitches that would’ve just been hard line drives in the past. You’ve got to be blind if you look at Barry’s home run numbers, match them up to his increases in size and tell me there’s no correlation.

That said, his patience at the plate, hand speed, and incredible ability to identify pitches is all natural. So many baseball players obviously use steroids it’s all a joke to me anyway. Either prevent them all from using, or let them all use.[/quote]

25lbs in a summer ? did you juice ? just by having that much more mass you’re going to get more pop off the bat.

back to the 25lbs… alot of people use that as their sole argument that barry juiced but it’s not that incredible for a professional athlete, who’s already naturally gifted with lots of fast-twitch fiber, who has the financial means to employ top doctors, trainers, and nutritionists, to put on a good bit of size in a single off season.

shit, those same fucking nobodies who spit @ bonds from the left side of their mouth are sucking christian bale’s dick with the right, like putting on muscle makes you an amazing actor or whatever.

109

As for hank aaron, he seems to be a pretty much a tightwad. in 1986 clemens won the a.l. mvp and hammerin’ hank argued that pitchers shouldn’t be eligible for the award.

clemens responded “i wish he were still playing. i’d probably crack his head open to show him how valuable i was.”

110

[quote]stymie wrote:
25lbs in a summer ? did you juice ? just by having that much more mass you’re going to get more pop off the bat.
[/quote]

No juice…just the first period in my life that I took diet and weightlifting seriously. Had nothing to do in school but eat and lift weights. Was beginner’s gains…

And you’re absolutely right, the extra muscle is going to help you get extra pop off the bat. I made this point mostly because a lot of people seem to think that muscle “won’t help you swing a bat”, when in fact it does help…a lot.

Personally I don’t like Bonds…but that’s because of his attitude and that I’m a life-long A’s fan, not because he juiced (which he admitted to doing). If Big Mac and Sammy both came out and admitted to juicing I’d still like them as ballplayers.

111

…Two more to go to tie Hank…

Mufasa

112

[quote]MODOK wrote:
swivel wrote:
bonds is the best hitter ever…

He may very well be the owner of the two biggest home run records in baseball, but there is no way he’s the best HITTER in baseball. His lifetime average is .298 the last time I checked, which is extremely average. He also has hit 40 more home runs than Ruth, but had about 5000 more plate appearances I believe.

Its all a matter of opinion of course, but I’ll take a .345 hitter with 714 HR over a .298 hitter with 756 HR all day long.

[/quote]

ok so for your fantasy baseball league you’ve pegged bonds as an “extremely average” hitter. do you think you could find one professional player or manager or scout on earth who would agree with your assessment ?

bonds has “about 5,000 more plate appearances”?

ruth played 22 years. bonds is in his 22nd year.
you’re gonna have to show me the math on this one.

113

Is anyone catching this ESPN specail “756 and beyond” - an ESPN Town meeting

God it makes me want to strangle someone

Atleast Dusty Baker, Ellis Burks and Kirk Reutar are not complete jackass’s

The typical “Look at how skinny he used to be on the Pirates! Thats proof right there!”

114

[quote]MODOK wrote:
Its also irrelevant that Bonds used steroids in my opinion, but the apologists who are saying he never used need to pick up a copy of the book “Game of Shadows”. If you can read that and still believe Bonds is clean, I’ll eat your shorts.[/quote]

That is a good book; I devoured it in a couple of days. I tried to read it with a grain of salt, but, man, some of the evidence is just too compelling.

For those who haven’t read it, it’s about a lot more than just Barry Bonds. It covers track and field and several athletes from other sports, as well. A fascinating read for any sports fan.