Barry Bonds and The Fans

Off Topic
81

clemens had a better record with the spanks for sure because those guys can hit. he was pitching way better with the astros though.

spankees:

99 - 187.7 ip - 4.60era
00 - 204.3 ip - 3.70era
01 - 220.3 ip - 3.51era
02 - 180.0 ip - 4.35era
03 - 211.7 ip - 3.91era

stros:

04 -214.3 ip - 2.98era
05 -211.3 ip - 1.87era
06 -113.3 ip - 2.30era

2005 he threw a 1.87era !!! that’s the best he’s ever pitched. that’s a 20 win season if the astros didn’t lose five 1-0 games for him.

doesn’t mean he juiced though. he got alot of rest. the astros let him rest all the time, not travel with the team, pitch @ home, take time off to hang with the family.

82

swivel, any baseball fan can tell you that the hitters in the AL are far superior than those if the NL. Those stats tell the whole story.

Look at Randy Johnson’s stats, too. Bronson Arroyo.

A pitcher moving from the AL to the NL will prolong his career. A pitcher moving from the NL to the AL better be a superstar, or else he’ll get the crap beat out of him. Watch. Clemens will be… average. Not enough to save the yankmees.

83

[quote]swivel wrote:
clemens had a better record with the spanks for sure because those guys can hit. he was pitching way better with the astros though.

spankees:

99 - 187.7 ip - 4.60era
00 - 204.3 ip - 3.70era
01 - 220.3 ip - 3.51era
02 - 180.0 ip - 4.35era
03 - 211.7 ip - 3.91era

stros:

04 -214.3 ip - 2.98era
05 -211.3 ip - 1.87era
06 -113.3 ip - 2.30era

2005 he threw a 1.87era !!! that’s the best he’s ever pitched. that’s a 20 win season if the astros didn’t lose five 1-0 games for him.

doesn’t mean he juiced though. he got alot of rest. the astros let him rest all the time, not travel with the team, pitch @ home, take time off to hang with the family.

[/quote]

Thanks for the data, Swivel. I think this data shows that he didn’t get more rest in two of the seasons; more innings pitched.

The point that NL is easier on pitchers than the AL is absolutely true, however I don’t think it can account for anywhere near 2 runs per 9 innings.

84

[quote]rainjack wrote:
on edge wrote:
I’m pretty sure Clemens is 44. If he was a knuckle-baller I wouldn’t be so suspicious. With the knuck it is mostly technique. The guys name escapes me right now, but the great Knuckleballer for the Red Sox finds himself in the AAA all the time due to some minor flaw or another in his mechanics.

My mistake. I thought Clemens was 42.

The only thing genetic about pitching is the velocity. Some guys naturally throw harder than others. Aside from the fastball, all other pitches require proper mechanics. Just go out and try to throw a 70 mph curve ball, and tell me it is all genetic.

The greatest knuckleballer of all time was Phil Neikro

Re. Nolan Ryan. His no hitters came further apart from a peak. When he was 43 he didn’t have a season like he had ten years earlier. It was one great game.

Ryan was only with one great team - the '69 Mets. His strikeoute ratio was just as high at the end of his career as it was at the beginning.

According to your logic, Ryan had 7 great games in his career. Which makes him the greatest pitcher of all time, seeing as no one has had anywhere close to 7 great games.

All of Clemen’s seasons with the Astros were great. I believe it was three seasons, I think one was a Cy Young. His last three seasons with the Yankees were a strugle by his standards. Certainly no Cy Youngs.

Clemens went 50-18 his last three years in NY, including a Cy Young.

All of his last 3 seasons in NY were better than his last year in Houston.

[/quote]
Do you think anyone who can throw 90 can work hard on the mechanics and be able to pitch at the major league level? The ability to apply the mechanics is genetic. I could throw an 80 mph Slider. Sometimes it was pretty damn snappy, too, but I couldn’t repeat it on a regular bases. That was a genetic quality I lacked. A 70 mph Curve Ball with a big break is where genetics meets preparation.

I’m not sure how this argument you bring up factors into the Clemens debate. I’m absolutely certain Nekro has nothing to do with the debate. WTF?

Ditto for Ryan’s 7 great games. And just how is that my logic? Obviously he was a great pitcher and had more than 7 great games. I don’t know about the beginning of his career, but I don’t need to check to see if he was striking out as many batters at the end of his career as he did at the peak of his career. He didn’t.

As for your last point, check Swivels stats.

85

[quote]on edge wrote:

doesn’t mean he juiced though. he got alot of rest. the astros let him rest all the time, not travel with the team, pitch @ home, take time off to hang with the family.

Thanks for the data, Swivel. I think this data shows that he didn’t get more rest in two of the seasons; more innings pitched.

The point that NL is easier on pitchers than the AL is absolutely true, however I don’t think it can account for anywhere near 2 runs per 9 innings.
[/quote]

well, he probably only averaged 6 innings a game but that still doesn’t mean anything. no i think it was more the facts that he was @ home, his home and the teams home, and that he did get ALOT more rest - like i said he pitched almost exclusively @ home, didn’t travel with the team and was allowed time off to spend with his family. you don’t think that translates to more rest ?

the guy is roger clemens. he wasn’t merely “good” for his entire career, he was a superstar for his entire career. what that means is his A game is unstoppable, his B game is on par with the rest of the best, and he can still find ways to win with his C game. the fact that he knows a few things about how to get guys out, and today we’re talking about guys with less than half the experience he has, should not be surprising.

86

[quote]malonetd wrote:
StandTall wrote:
He isn’t going around acting like Pacman Jones, he has never shot anyone or beat a woman…

Actually his girlfriend has accused him of hitting her on a couple separate occasions.

Dude he told her twice, what do you expect? j/king not serious at all.

As far as him being an asshole because of constant media presence, that comes with the job. It annoys me to a celebrity complain of lack of privacy. It comes with the territory. If they don’t like it, come back down to the general population and make $30,000-$60,000 a year like everyone else.

Well I disagree and that is fine. I can’t see me being able to put up with it 100% of the time and I couldn’t see me turning down playing profootball either. So if that were the case I’d be labled a dick. How many times do you need to find reporters hiding in your bushes while you are walking around the house naked to get pissed off or to be out with your family and reporters who are rude as fuck by the way pushing the envelope before you break a neck?

Just seems really stupid. Even stupider is that most of us that say oh who cares they make a lot of money are the idol worshipers that create this mayhem. I make a lot of money and when I was making 30k, 40k, even 70k I used to think for lots of money I could put up with a lot of shit and now that I make a lot of money I my putting up with shit meter has only gone up slightly, in fact I’m more prone to quitting now than I was then.

I’m not in a job I love though so maybe that is the problem. He is doing what he loves, that is why he is still going.

87

[quote]on edge wrote:
Do you think anyone who can throw 90 can work hard on the mechanics and be able to pitch at the major league level? The ability to apply the mechanics is genetic. I could throw an 80 mph Slider. Sometimes it was pretty damn snappy, too, but I couldn’t repeat it on a regular bases. That was a genetic quality I lacked. A 70 mph Curve Ball with a big break is where genetics meets preparation.[/quote]

Mechanics is learned - not genetic. No amount of AAS will teach a pitcher better mechanics - which was my original point.

Neikro has no point in the debate. He was the best knuckleballer in the modern era - I was just telling you who he was.

You want to accuse Clemens of juicing because you say he magically had better seasons later in his career. My point was Ryan was just as feared in his 40’s as he was in his 20’s.

I’ll concede that point given that you concede that swivel is also correct about the difference in the NL and AL environment.

88

what reason is there to accuse clemens of juicing ? you’ve got a “gut feeling” ?
wtf ? that’s a pretty shitty rumor to spread about someone, especially one of the game’s elite, especially when you’ve got NOTHING.

it’s like if you told people you suspected me of cheating on my girl just because i’m in a good mood lately or you saw me talking to someone and having a good time. wtf man ? you deserve to get smacked for talking shit like that when you’ve got nothing. hell, even it were TRUE you’d deserve to get smacked for talking shit like that. stfu.

89

In my opinion, this is partially true…

While American-pitching-coach mechanics are taught; throwing mechanics (or patterns) have been part of the human (boys) software since we started falling out of vaginas.

Evidence:

*Give an infant boy a small object.
*Watch pre-taught kids throw.
*Study primitive cultures’ throwing motions.
*Look at all of the “third-worlder’s” that have come over with no formal training background and have been successful.
*Watch kids from third world countries throw rocks/spears(javelins)…usually at authorities.

Anecdotally, look at the masculinity of the kids throwing. Generally speaking, you’ll find the “manlier” boys throw better than the “pinky-uppers.”

I suppose that all of my ‘evidence’ should be considered anecdotal…so take it for what it’s worth.
90

[quote]swivel wrote:
what reason is there to accuse clemens of juicing ? you’ve got a “gut feeling” ?
wtf ? that’s a pretty shitty rumor to spread about someone, especially one of the game’s elite, especially when you’ve got NOTHING.

it’s like if you told people you suspected me of cheating on my girl just because i’m in a good mood lately or you saw me talking to someone and having a good time. wtf man ? you deserve to get smacked for talking shit like that when you’ve got nothing. hell, even it were TRUE you’d deserve to get smacked for talking shit like that. stfu. [/quote]

Yes I hate this shit as well… That was my orignal point, people just accuse someone “Cause I dunno man I THINK he does, I just do”

It is no diffrent than someone accusing someone of steriods just because they are kind of big.

Jealousy…

91

[quote]Kalle wrote:
swivel wrote:
what reason is there to accuse clemens of juicing ? you’ve got a “gut feeling” ?
wtf ? that’s a pretty shitty rumor to spread about someone, especially one of the game’s elite, especially when you’ve got NOTHING.

it’s like if you told people you suspected me of cheating on my girl just because i’m in a good mood lately or you saw me talking to someone and having a good time. wtf man ? you deserve to get smacked for talking shit like that when you’ve got nothing. hell, even it were TRUE you’d deserve to get smacked for talking shit like that. stfu.

Yes I hate this shit as well… That was my orignal point, people just accuse someone “Cause I dunno man I THINK he does, I just do”

It is no diffrent than someone accusing someone of steriods just because they are kind of big.

Jealousy…
[/quote]

I’m jealous of all Big Leagers. I don’t think they all juice. Seriously though, the type of jealousy you are talking about is reserved for pitchers a tier down from Clemens who want what he has not someone like myself who is light years removed. In addition, I think middle of the road pitchers might be jealous of Barry Zitto they’re not jealous of Clemens they are just in awe.

92

[quote]swivel wrote:
what reason is there to accuse clemens of juicing ? you’ve got a “gut feeling” ?
wtf ? that’s a pretty shitty rumor to spread about someone, especially one of the game’s elite, especially when you’ve got NOTHING. [/quote]

Pitchers don’t get better in their 40’s, at least not until the steroids era.

I’m not spreading a rumor. I clearly said, more than once, “I suspect he is juicing”. I didn’t say “I heard he’s juicing” or “He’s juicing” or “I know he’s juicing” or anything like that. There’s a big difference.

[quote]swivel wrote:
it’s like if you told people you suspected me of cheating on my girl just because i’m in a good mood lately or you saw me talking to someone and having a good time. wtf man ? you deserve to get smacked for talking shit like that when you’ve got nothing. hell, even it were TRUE you’d deserve to get smacked for talking shit like that. stfu. [/quote]

Don’t be a moron.

93

[quote]rainjack wrote:
on edge wrote:
Do you think anyone who can throw 90 can work hard on the mechanics and be able to pitch at the major league level? The ability to apply the mechanics is genetic. I could throw an 80 mph Slider. Sometimes it was pretty damn snappy, too, but I couldn’t repeat it on a regular bases. That was a genetic quality I lacked. A 70 mph Curve Ball with a big break is where genetics meets preparation.

Mechanics is learned - not genetic. No amount of AAS will teach a pitcher better mechanics - which was my original point.

I agree that AAS will not improve mechanics. That’s part of why a regular Joe can’t take drugs and go out and be a big time ball player.

Ditto for Ryan’s 7 great games. And just how is that my logic? Obviously he was a great pitcher and had more than 7 great games. I don’t know about the beginning of his career, but I don’t need to check to see if he was striking out as many batters at the end of his career as he did at the peak of his career. He didn’t.

[/quote]
You want to accuse Clemens of juicing because you say he magically had better seasons later in his career. My point was Ryan was just as feared in his 40’s as he was in his 20’s.

Due to his legendation, not his stuff.

As for your last point, check Swivels stats.

I’ll concede that point given that you concede that swivel is also correct about the difference in the NL and AL environment.
[/quote]

I already did, just not the full difference.

94

[quote]Kalle wrote:
swivel wrote:
what reason is there to accuse clemens of juicing ? you’ve got a “gut feeling” ?
wtf ? that’s a pretty shitty rumor to spread about someone, especially one of the game’s elite, especially when you’ve got NOTHING.

it’s like if you told people you suspected me of cheating on my girl just because i’m in a good mood lately or you saw me talking to someone and having a good time. wtf man ? you deserve to get smacked for talking shit like that when you’ve got nothing. hell, even it were TRUE you’d deserve to get smacked for talking shit like that. stfu.

Yes I hate this shit as well… That was my orignal point, people just accuse someone “Cause I dunno man I THINK he does, I just do”

It is no diffrent than someone accusing someone of steriods just because they are kind of big.

Jealousy…
[/quote]

Who is accusing anyone of steroids?

There is a big difference between having suspicions that Clemens or anyone else is/has juiced and making an accusation.

You would have to be pretty naive not to suspect Clemens, Bonds, etc may have juiced.

95

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Kalle wrote:
swivel wrote:
what reason is there to accuse clemens of juicing ? you’ve got a “gut feeling” ?
wtf ? that’s a pretty shitty rumor to spread about someone, especially one of the game’s elite, especially when you’ve got NOTHING.

it’s like if you told people you suspected me of cheating on my girl just because i’m in a good mood lately or you saw me talking to someone and having a good time. wtf man ? you deserve to get smacked for talking shit like that when you’ve got nothing. hell, even it were TRUE you’d deserve to get smacked for talking shit like that. stfu.

Yes I hate this shit as well… That was my orignal point, people just accuse someone “Cause I dunno man I THINK he does, I just do”

It is no diffrent than someone accusing someone of steriods just because they are kind of big.

Jealousy…

Who is accusing anyone of steroids?

There is a big difference between having suspicions that Clemens or anyone else is/has juiced and making an accusation.

You would have to be pretty naive not to suspect Clemens, Bonds, etc may have juiced.

[/quote]

…

This is the same type of stupid gossip talk girls have about what actress is cheating and which one is addicted to painkillers…

96

[quote]Kalle wrote:
…

This is the same type of stupid gossip talk girls have about what actress is cheating and which one is addicted to painkillers…[/quote]

Perhaps you are on the wrong website. This is a site about training and has a section dedicated to steroids.

I don’t know why you would expect people not to post their thoughts on the subject.

97

[quote]on edge wrote:
rainjack wrote:
on edge wrote:
Do you think anyone who can throw 90 can work hard on the mechanics and be able to pitch at the major league level? The ability to apply the mechanics is genetic. I could throw an 80 mph Slider. Sometimes it was pretty damn snappy, too, but I couldn’t repeat it on a regular bases. That was a genetic quality I lacked. A 70 mph Curve Ball with a big break is where genetics meets preparation.

Mechanics is learned - not genetic. No amount of AAS will teach a pitcher better mechanics - which was my original point.

I agree that AAS will not improve mechanics. That’s part of why a regular Joe can’t take drugs and go out and be a big time ball player.

Ditto for Ryan’s 7 great games. And just how is that my logic? Obviously he was a great pitcher and had more than 7 great games. I don’t know about the beginning of his career, but I don’t need to check to see if he was striking out as many batters at the end of his career as he did at the peak of his career. He didn’t.

You want to accuse Clemens of juicing because you say he magically had better seasons later in his career. My point was Ryan was just as feared in his 40’s as he was in his 20’s.

Due to his legendation, not his stuff.

As for your last point, check Swivels stats.

I’ll concede that point given that you concede that swivel is also correct about the difference in the NL and AL environment.

I already did, just not the full difference.[/quote]

Wow, I really screwed up the quotes on this one.

98

[quote]on edge wrote:

Ditto for Ryan’s 7 great games. And just how is that my logic? Obviously he was a great pitcher and had more than 7 great games. I don’t know about the beginning of his career, but I don’t need to check to see if he was striking out as many batters at the end of his career as he did at the peak of his career. He didn’t.
[/quote]

He had 301 K’s at 42. Only his last season was he not striking out more people than he did in his early years.

I’m not going to get into a pissing contest over this - as a simple check of the facts will prove my point.

Anyhow -

To say a player must be juicing simply because they perform at a high level after 40 is rather silly given the current knowledge of proper training and nutrition.

99

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Kalle wrote:
…

This is the same type of stupid gossip talk girls have about what actress is cheating and which one is addicted to painkillers…

Perhaps you are on the wrong website. This is a site about training and has a section dedicated to steroids.

I don’t know why you would expect people not to post their thoughts on the subject.[/quote]

I am on the wrong website?
Why? Because I don’t want to gossip about who may or may not be on steriods?

Yes the website has a steriod section but that section is for information about steriods. Not to post who you think is juicing because you have a “felling.”

Of course I expect people to talk about the subject, that is exactly what I am doing, talking about the subject.

I will play along with your game on who I think is juicing.

I think Competitive eater Joey Chestnut is on roids. I mean Kobyashi was unstopable for 6 years so Chestnut knew he needed some help to break the record. In ONE YEAR he went from eating 51 hotdogs to 66!! and 59 1/2 in a qualifer!!! You can not make progress like that naturally! Plus I think he gained 5lbs of muscle to.

Thoughts?

100

I love how the mere mention of Clemens juicing brings out the die hard defenders. Meanwhile it is OK to rip on Barry over speculation.

I believe that double standard is the reason why Clemens was brought into the discussion.