'Bailout' Voted Down

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
AssOnGrass wrote:
What exactly is mark to market?

Marking the price of your assets to “market value”. In a really simple definition: if you own some financial instrument and you paid 100 bucks for it last month, but you could get 110 in the market today, you mark the value of that asset at 110 when in the accounting world it should be recorded at cost, 100. It is sort of a sneaky accounting trick to manipulate earnings.[/quote]

Ok thanks

So it’s speculative inflation of an asset?

[quote]AssOnGrass wrote:
skaz05 wrote:
AssOnGrass wrote:
What exactly is mark to market?

Marking the price of your assets to “market value”. In a really simple definition: if you own some financial instrument and you paid 100 bucks for it last month, but you could get 110 in the market today, you mark the value of that asset at 110 when in the accounting world it should be recorded at cost, 100. It is sort of a sneaky accounting trick to manipulate earnings.

Ok thanks

So it’s speculative inflation of an asset?[/quote]

Its the rape of the dollar.

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
AssOnGrass wrote:
What exactly is mark to market?

Marking the price of your assets to “market value”. In a really simple definition: if you own some financial instrument and you paid 100 bucks for it last month, but you could get 110 in the market today, you mark the value of that asset at 110 when in the accounting world it should be recorded at cost, 100. It is sort of a sneaky accounting trick to manipulate earnings.[/quote]

M2M is a two edged sword.

In an appreciating market, like the real estate market was experiencing a couple of years ago, it allows the owner to mark up the value of an asset. It makes your balance sheet look very very good.

In a depreciating market, the current state of the real estate market, it forces the owner to carry at the lower market value. It shrinks his balance sheet, and forces him to either pay a lot more for money (because of reduced value of supporting assets) or unable to get money period.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

But to answer your question, I am 1000000% against the bailout. All one need to is actually read what I have written in this thread to figure that out. [/quote]

Yeah, but how do you really feel about the bailout?..

[quote]rainjack wrote:
RoadWarrior wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Dude - there is no bill for him to veto. The turncoat democrats who voted against the bailout saw to that.

So exactly what is it he should be doing right now? I think he should fire Paulson, and get someone in there without a conflict of interest.

Are you for this bailout or against it? If you are against, why are the Democrats turncoats for voting it down? Also, brush up on your math 66% of the Republicans (bless their hearts) voted against it and 40% of the Democrats voted against it. This means (at least the I learned math) that the Republicans were responsible for the failure not the Democrats.

Go back and try again.

There are more democrats than republicans in the HOR by a margin of 230ish - 198, give or take. I’ll try to slow down here so that you can call your mom, and see if she can help you out with big words.

All that is needed to pass the bailout is a simple majority. You do know what a simple majority is, right? If you have just one more “yes” votes than “no” votes - the “yes” wins.

So let’s go back to the balance of power (you might need mom to explain that one to you). If the Dems would have voted along party lines - 100% of the Republicans could have voted against the bailout, and it still would have passed.

You might want to go get a scratch pad and re-read the last paragraph.

So - the one’s who truly voted this bill down was the democrats who sided with the house republicans.

But to answer your question, I am 1000000% against the bailout. All one need to is actually read what I have written in this thread to figure that out. [/quote]

Oh my god, then the democrats are the hero of the day? Hell does freeze over.

PS. Leave my mother out of this…

[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:
rainjack wrote:
RoadWarrior wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Dude - there is no bill for him to veto. The turncoat democrats who voted against the bailout saw to that.

So exactly what is it he should be doing right now? I think he should fire Paulson, and get someone in there without a conflict of interest.

Are you for this bailout or against it? If you are against, why are the Democrats turncoats for voting it down? Also, brush up on your math 66% of the Republicans (bless their hearts) voted against it and 40% of the Democrats voted against it. This means (at least the I learned math) that the Republicans were responsible for the failure not the Democrats.

Go back and try again.

There are more democrats than republicans in the HOR by a margin of 230ish - 198, give or take. I’ll try to slow down here so that you can call your mom, and see if she can help you out with big words.

All that is needed to pass the bailout is a simple majority. You do know what a simple majority is, right? If you have just one more “yes” votes than “no” votes - the “yes” wins.

So let’s go back to the balance of power (you might need mom to explain that one to you). If the Dems would have voted along party lines - 100% of the Republicans could have voted against the bailout, and it still would have passed.

You might want to go get a scratch pad and re-read the last paragraph.

So - the one’s who truly voted this bill down was the democrats who sided with the house republicans.

But to answer your question, I am 1000000% against the bailout. All one need to is actually read what I have written in this thread to figure that out.

Oh my god, then the democrats are the hero of the day? Hell does freeze over.

PS. Leave my mother out of this…

[/quote]

Yes. They are.

[quote] The Most Arrogant Lawmaker in America?
September 30th, 2008 by Don Rasmussen

�??If you just solely rely on the phone calls we�??re getting from home, listening to people who don�??t understand the complexities of our marketplace and what we�??re dealing with here, the easiest vote for you to make would be a no vote today. You have to go beyond that.�?? - Rep Gary Miller R-CA Dist. 42

Obviously any legislator who would listen to the cries of the serfs over Lord Miller�??s superior knowledge and commitment to our nation is a fool. Please let his Lordship know about your knowledge of �??the complexities of the marketplace�?? by giving him a call at (202) 225-3201 in DC and (714) 257-1142 in CA. [/quote]

From Campaign for Liberty - Reclaim the Republic. Restore the Constitution.

[quote]AssOnGrass wrote:
The Most Arrogant Lawmaker in America?
September 30th, 2008 by Don Rasmussen

�??If you just solely rely on the phone calls we�??re getting from home, listening to people who don�??t understand the complexities of our marketplace and what we�??re dealing with here, the easiest vote for you to make would be a no vote today. You have to go beyond that.�?? - Rep Gary Miller R-CA Dist. 42

Obviously any legislator who would listen to the cries of the serfs over Lord Miller�??s superior knowledge and commitment to our nation is a fool. Please let his Lordship know about your knowledge of �??the complexities of the marketplace�?? by giving him a call at (202) 225-3201 in DC and (714) 257-1142 in CA.

From Campaign for Liberty - Reclaim the Republic. Restore the Constitution.

Arrogant indeed.

The implication being that lawmakers DO understand the complexities of the market place? Also, I thought representative democracy was supposed to encourage participation by the public to make their voices heard.

It doesn’t matter that the public may be ignorant of market complexities they know when they are being screwed.

[quote]shookers wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
shookers wrote:

I recognize many of you are free market libertarians - hell I am too, but how anyone can responsibility not vote yes for this bill is beyond me. Why you would “accept” a huge recession when you could correct the problem is rediculous. Someone enlighten me as to your thinking?

This is an outrageously inconsistent and non-sensical paragraph.

Not really. Sometimes practically has to trump idealism
[/quote]

Here, I’ll re-post this article since I see it’s been ‘elevated’ to Drudge status this morning:

Excerpts:

–snip
[i]This bailout was a terrible idea. Here’s why.

The current mess would never have occurred in the absence of ill-conceived federal policies. The federal government chartered Fannie Mae in 1938 and Freddie Mac in 1970; these two mortgage lending institutions are at the center of the crisis. The government implicitly promised these institutions that it would make good on their debts, so Fannie and Freddie took on huge amounts of excessive risk.
[/i]

–snip
[i]The fact that government bears such a huge responsibility for the current mess means any response should eliminate the conditions that created this situation in the first place, not attempt to fix bad government with more government.

The obvious alternative to a bailout is letting troubled financial institutions declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy means that shareholders typically get wiped out and the creditors own the company.
[/i]

–snip
In contrast, a bailout transfers enormous wealth from taxpayers to those who knowingly engaged in risky subprime lending. Thus, the bailout encourages companies to take large, imprudent risks and count on getting bailed out by government. This “moral hazard” generates enormous distortions in an economy’s allocation of its financial resources.

–snip
If these assets are worth something, however, private parties should want to buy them, and they would do so if the owners would accept fair market value. Far more likely is that current owners have brushed under the rug how little their assets are worth.

** See: rainjack re: M2M

–snip

The right view of the financial mess is that an enormous fraction of subprime lending should never have occurred in the first place. Someone has to pay for that. That someone should not be, and does not need to be, the U.S. taxpayer.

Oh, look-- he’s a Libertarian and GASP! even has a Ph.D from MIT and lectures at Harvard…)

Editor’s note: Jeffrey A. Miron is senior lecturer in economics at Harvard University. A Libertarian, he was one of 166 academic economists who signed a letter to congressional leaders last week opposing the government bailout plan.

[quote]GumsMagoo wrote:
AynRandLuvr wrote:
The Chinese had a new dynasty every few hundred years, after the previous one became corrupt, bloated, and so forth. I suspect all of this is simply a pattern that ALL governments/societies have: vigor, success, ease, bloat, collapse. Why should the USA be any different?

Exactly. It’s just sad that we’re alive to see the end of America’s bloat and the beginning of its collapse.[/quote]

When the people so loath the Congress and presidency (Bush’s rating is 11%), look for a strong military leader to arise to restore order. President Obama may even call upon that person to restore order in the streets. Obama would then become his puppet. Similar is what often happened in China, prior to the Mongol rule.

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
shookers wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
shookers wrote:

I recognize many of you are free market libertarians - hell I am too, but how anyone can responsibility not vote yes for this bill is beyond me. Why you would “accept” a huge recession when you could correct the problem is rediculous. Someone enlighten me as to your thinking?

This is an outrageously inconsistent and non-sensical paragraph.

Not really. Sometimes practically has to trump idealism

Here, I’ll re-post this article since I see it’s been ‘elevated’ to Drudge status this morning:

Excerpts:

–snip
[i]This bailout was a terrible idea. Here’s why.

The current mess would never have occurred in the absence of ill-conceived federal policies. The federal government chartered Fannie Mae in 1938 and Freddie Mac in 1970; these two mortgage lending institutions are at the center of the crisis.

The government implicitly promised these institutions that it would make good on their debts, so Fannie and Freddie took on huge amounts of excessive risk.
[/i]

–snip
[i]The fact that government bears such a huge responsibility for the current mess means any response should eliminate the conditions that created this situation in the first place, not attempt to fix bad government with more government.

The obvious alternative to a bailout is letting troubled financial institutions declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy means that shareholders typically get wiped out and the creditors own the company.
[/i]

–snip
[i]In contrast, a bailout transfers enormous wealth from taxpayers to those who knowingly engaged in risky subprime lending. Thus, the bailout encourages companies to take large, imprudent risks and count on getting bailed out by government.

This “moral hazard” generates enormous distortions in an economy’s allocation of its financial resources.[/i]

–snip
If these assets are worth something, however, private parties should want to buy them, and they would do so if the owners would accept fair market value. Far more likely is that current owners have brushed under the rug how little their assets are worth.

** See: rainjack re: M2M

–snip

The right view of the financial mess is that an enormous fraction of subprime lending should never have occurred in the first place. Someone has to pay for that. That someone should not be, and does not need to be, the U.S. taxpayer.

Oh, look-- he’s a Libertarian and GASP! even has a Ph.D from MIT and lectures at Harvard…)

Editor’s note: Jeffrey A. Miron is senior lecturer in economics at Harvard University. A Libertarian, he was one of 166 academic economists who signed a letter to congressional leaders last week opposing the government bailout plan.[/quote]

This is frigging great stuf

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
on edge wrote:

Headhunter gave an extreme low of 3000 on the S&P. I doubt it will get that bad, but the stop off he mentioned at 8000 is very likely. I hope it only goes down to 9500 or so, in the next year to year and a half. That would indicate the long term bull is still in place.

If it does break that 8000 level, I’m sorry to say, it’s time time climb in the bunker with HH because it’s going to get very, very ugly.

Those numbers are for the Dow. The S&P 500 is now at about 1100 and crashed through numeous support levels.

I’m actually an eternal optimist. But also a realist — you can’t have 10 trillion in debt, promise 50 trillion in future goodies and expect anything but disaster.

[/quote]

No HH, those numbers are for the S&P.

Head Hunter and Rainjack are each on opposite ends of the spectrum yet neither one of them could get someones post right to save their lives.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
What are you looking at buying, RJ? Are there any ETFs you could recommend?

I don’t do ETF’s, but someone was pushing one in the threads just the other day to Mage, I think.

GE is looking real nice: $23.10/share, 10.81 P/E, and a yield of about 5.37%.

Altria is looking good, too - $19.35/share, 12.5 P/E. and a yield of over 6%.

[/quote]

XLF GE and MO, along with a little pet of mine BEP

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
rainjack wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
What are you looking at buying, RJ? Are there any ETFs you could recommend?

I don’t do ETF’s, but someone was pushing one in the threads just the other day to Mage, I think.

GE is looking real nice: $23.10/share, 10.81 P/E, and a yield of about 5.37%.

Altria is looking good, too - $19.35/share, 12.5 P/E. and a yield of over 6%.

XLF GE and MO, along with a little pet of mine BEP[/quote]

I just bought some AT&T. 12.84 P/E, 5.3% yield, trading at about $28.

[quote]on edge wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
on edge wrote:

Headhunter gave an extreme low of 3000 on the S&P. I doubt it will get that bad, but the stop off he mentioned at 8000 is very likely. I hope it only goes down to 9500 or so, in the next year to year and a half. That would indicate the long term bull is still in place.

If it does break that 8000 level, I’m sorry to say, it’s time time climb in the bunker with HH because it’s going to get very, very ugly.

Those numbers are for the Dow. The S&P 500 is now at about 1100 and crashed through numeous support levels.

I’m actually an eternal optimist. But also a realist — you can’t have 10 trillion in debt, promise 50 trillion in future goodies and expect anything but disaster.

No HH, those numbers are for the S&P.

Head Hunter and Rainjack are each on opposite ends of the spectrum yet neither one of them could get someones post right to save their lives.[/quote]

What did I get wrong? I didn’t know what he was talking about and asked. Asking questions is not getting something wrong.

The Dow have given back almost half of what it lost yesterday.

So has the S&P, and Nasdaq.

I thought we were all supposed to be naked, hungry, and homeless by this afternoon.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
The Dow have given back almost half of what it lost yesterday.

So has the S&P, and Nasdaq.

I thought we were all supposed to be naked, hungry, and homeless by this afternoon. [/quote]

Funny thing is, no one is having ‘reverse panic’ (ie grandiose euphoria) “OMG!! We’re gonna be rich!! The DOW is SURGING!!! We’ll all be able to retire in wealth in WEEKS at this rate! WOW, oh WOW!”

I grabbed a few dollars rolling with the up and down yesterday, and went long on a few today. I did do a synthetic spread that I hope will do me right.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
The Dow have given back almost half of what it lost yesterday.

So has the S&P, and Nasdaq.

I thought we were all supposed to be naked, hungry, and homeless by this afternoon. [/quote]

When you drop a rubber ball, it bounces up after hitting the pavement. It probably bounces up about half of its original height. It then resumes its course. The Dow is down about 22% so far this year, btw.

I am not as pessimistic as HH but I still see one helluva mess ahead. Redefining banking in this country is going to be terrible in itself.

Yes, based on 4 hours of trading the day after the biggest drop in the history of the dow it appears we can relax and confidently say, disaster averted.

That was a close one.