'Bailout' Voted Down

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

I must admit I am at a crossroads here today. I work in an industry heavily dependent upon people’s discretionary income (personal trainer).

The months as of late the client pool has been drying up as the people making under 100k per year has been less likely to pay for services. These people probably made up about 30% of my client base. The other 70% have been a little more resistant to the economic downturns as they have the funds to weather the small things. My concerns are that these clients who are more “wealthy” are generally very smart with their finances and will stop training when their discretionary income starts drying up. Hell I even train a real estate lawyer and his wife (an engineer who lost her job a month ago). Also I had a client who worked for a bank… needless to say she lost her job too and stopped training.

I am trying to hold strong in my ideals that this plan is not the right thing to do in the long run. Unfortunately I know if things get much worse I will be without a job as the business partner of my manager got in too far over his head opening up an additional studio before things were running on auto pilot at the studio I work at.

I don’t know what the point of this post really is… just stating where a lot of American’s minds are at right now I guess.

62

The last Depression lasted so long because we attempted to use Fascism to get out of it. Hopefully, we won’t this time if the sky actually falls. I don’t think the Congresscritters are going to let it. Credit will be expanded.

63

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Noodle_Arms wrote:
bdog527 wrote:
25%-30% unemployment is on the way if they don’t put something together and get it passed. It’s easy to be self-righteous when the lights are on but give people a month of a depression and they’ll be screaming for a new deal.

The S&P just lost 800 billion in market cap today. That is 50 billion more than the treasury plan would’ve cost us. It will get worse if nothing is done.

QFT.

Everyone celebrating this bill not getting passed reeeeeally needs to temper their enthusiasm. We are in for a long and painful road.

If you are in debt, and can’t afford it - you deserve whatever you get. There should be no bail out for stupidity.

That goes for Wall Street to Main Street to the back streets.

Hopefully this is a wake up call for everyone living beyond their means.
[/quote]

AKA most of America. This country has needed to suck it up for awhile now. If your borrowed more than you can afford, tough cookies. If you were dumb enough to lend to people who couldn’t pay you back, same deal. It’s no one’s fault but your own if you find yourself with your dick in your hands at the end of this. It is NOT the government’s responsibility to take care of you from cradle to grave and wave their magic wand and make your fuck-ups go away by having our children’s children pay for it. Doing so only holds back those who could do more for themselves without having a slice of their pie taken out for those who can’t.

64

[quote]rainjack wrote:

Hopefully this is a wake up call for everyone living beyond their means.
[/quote]

What about people just scraping by? I don’t think people like me, who don’t have any debt (besides student loans in my case), live like paupers, and are just trying to live or get through school or whatever shouldn’t have to shoulder any of this burden at all.

I agree that the people who borrowed too much, spent money they didn’t have, and played the game and lost, deserve what they get. But from what I understand, this crisis is going to put many people out of work, suck money out of the economy, and crash the banking system.

They are already talking about bank runs, they are already preparing for a miserable jobs report, they are saying that this thing is already hitting some of the biggest companies in America. McDonalds was mentioned.

If what they say is going to manifest in the way they say it is, then many of us will be living in cardboard boxes soon.

65

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
People need to understand that the Dow Jones is not the economy.[/quote]

Of course not. But a country-wide and possibly global collapse of banks that precludes use of credit will cripple the economy.

66

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Hopefully this is a wake up call for everyone living beyond their means.

What about people just scraping by? I don’t think people like me, who don’t have any debt (besides student loans in my case), live like paupers, and are just trying to live or get through school or whatever shouldn’t have to shoulder any of this burden at all.

I agree that the people who borrowed too much, spent money they didn’t have, and played the game and lost, deserve what they get. But from what I understand, this crisis is going to put many people out of work, suck money out of the economy, and crash the banking system.

They are already talking about bank runs, they are already preparing for a miserable jobs report, they are saying that this thing is already hitting some of the biggest companies in America. McDonalds was mentioned.

If what they say is going to manifest in the way they say it is, then many of us will be living in cardboard boxes soon.[/quote]

You’re watching too much CNBC.

If we keep doing this type of shit then one day everyone in America will be living in cardboard boxes.

67

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
AssOnGrass wrote:
Yikes not a good day for my investments

But looking at the price of some of these prime companies is tempting.

Must. Stick. To. Paying. Off. Debt. And. Don’t. Put. Savings. Into. Market.

The PE is still in the 20s and the divident yield below 3%. Wait until the market gets to 8000 and begin nibbling , on the way down to 3000. That’s my best estimate of the bottom.

Are talking about a particular stock?

Nothing I hold has a PE of more than 17.5 - and only 2 have a PE of greater than 12. My divi yield ranges from 1.63% (Walmart) to over 27%.

I am a little confused as to what you are talking about.
[/quote]

The PE on the SP 500 and the dividend yield on same. While you’ll get damaged less by owning low PE stocks who are cash rich and can afford a decent dividend, the tide is going out, so to speak.

I have tried fighting falling markets before. You may have better luck than me but fighting the market is a lot tougher than many can do. Full-time pros are getting slaughtered, so good luck! (You’ll need it.)

68

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Hopefully this is a wake up call for everyone living beyond their means.

What about people just scraping by? I don’t think people like me, who don’t have any debt (besides student loans in my case), live like paupers, and are just trying to live or get through school or whatever shouldn’t have to shoulder any of this burden at all.

[/quote]

You’re scaping by in relatively good times. What does that imply for your future?

Know any family who own farm land? You might seriously want to consider setting up a deal with them, if possible. This is going to be very bad for many years.

Those without capital will become dispensible in the future. The worth of an individual worker is shrinking rapidly. You’ll probably have to rely on handouts from the government unless you’re growing your own food.

Folks like you have my sympathy, truly.

69

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Hopefully this is a wake up call for everyone living beyond their means.

What about people just scraping by? I don’t think people like me, who don’t have any debt (besides student loans in my case), live like paupers, and are just trying to live or get through school or whatever shouldn’t have to shoulder any of this burden at all.

I agree that the people who borrowed too much, spent money they didn’t have, and played the game and lost, deserve what they get. But from what I understand, this crisis is going to put many people out of work, suck money out of the economy, and crash the banking system.

They are already talking about bank runs, they are already preparing for a miserable jobs report, they are saying that this thing is already hitting some of the biggest companies in America. McDonalds was mentioned.

If what they say is going to manifest in the way they say it is, then many of us will be living in cardboard boxes soon.[/quote]

Fear never makes money, unless you are the one perpetrating it. There are those in this country who want the worst to happen. Hell, there are at least 2 Americans (and countless foreign interlopers) on this board who get off on telling people how the sky is falling.

It’s not.

Wall Street has about about as much of a clue about regular life as does DC. And between the both of them, there is not a clue to be found.

DO you have a job? If not, get one. Unemployment nationally is still near statistical full employment - and a shit tone better than the late 70’s.

This is the USA. People, in spite of the impending falling of the sky, will still give their left nut to get here because of the opportunities this country holds for everyone who seeks them out.

You can choose to live in fear, or you can refuse to be one of the helpless fucking losers and make your life what you want from it.

Sorry for the cheer leading session - but you don’t listen to the motherfuckers looking for a place to die, or begging to get a chance to suck on the government tit.

70

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
AssOnGrass wrote:
Yikes not a good day for my investments

But looking at the price of some of these prime companies is tempting.

Must. Stick. To. Paying. Off. Debt. And. Don’t. Put. Savings. Into. Market.

The PE is still in the 20s and the divident yield below 3%. Wait until the market gets to 8000 and begin nibbling , on the way down to 3000. That’s my best estimate of the bottom.

Are talking about a particular stock?

Nothing I hold has a PE of more than 17.5 - and only 2 have a PE of greater than 12. My divi yield ranges from 1.63% (Walmart) to over 27%.

I am a little confused as to what you are talking about.

The PE on the SP 500 and the dividend yield on same. While you’ll get damaged less by owning low PE stocks who are cash rich and can afford a decent dividend, the tide is going out, so to speak.

I have tried fighting falling markets before. You may have better luck than me but fighting the market is a lot tougher than many can do. Full-time pros are getting slaughtered, so good luck! (You’ll need it.)

[/quote]

I’ll do much better than the fear mongers. Full time pros are fools who live and die by their bolinger bands.

All of my stocks beat the magical S&P - but for one, and its only the largest retailer on the planet.

I certainly hope the chicken littles will be big enough to come back and admit they were wrong a year from now, when the markets have come back.

But somehow, somewhere, there will be another catasprophe that everyone will need to be warned about.

71

[quote]Noodle_Arms wrote:
bdog527 wrote:
25%-30% unemployment is on the way if they don’t put something together and get it passed. It’s easy to be self-righteous when the lights are on but give people a month of a depression and they’ll be screaming for a new deal.

The S&P just lost 800 billion in market cap today. That is 50 billion more than the treasury plan would’ve cost us. It will get worse if nothing is done.

QFT.

Everyone celebrating this bill not getting passed reeeeeally needs to temper their enthusiasm. We are in for a long and painful road. [/quote]

I can’t get by the giggle factor here: so the choice is that we either pass a bill giving Paulson unprecedented powers that may or may not work - OR, we face a great depression. There’s no other choice. Right.

72

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Hopefully this is a wake up call for everyone living beyond their means.

What about people just scraping by? I don’t think people like me, who don’t have any debt (besides student loans in my case), live like paupers, and are just trying to live or get through school or whatever shouldn’t have to shoulder any of this burden at all.

I agree that the people who borrowed too much, spent money they didn’t have, and played the game and lost, deserve what they get. But from what I understand, this crisis is going to put many people out of work, suck money out of the economy, and crash the banking system.

They are already talking about bank runs, they are already preparing for a miserable jobs report, they are saying that this thing is already hitting some of the biggest companies in America. McDonalds was mentioned.

If what they say is going to manifest in the way they say it is, then many of us will be living in cardboard boxes soon.[/quote]

Because no one was unemployed before this mess? No one ever got fired or laid off before now? I don’t care what you do, there is some chance you will wake up tomorrow morning and be without a job regardless of the state of the economy.

It’s scary if you dwell on it I guess, but the alternative is far more frightening in my opinion.

73

Sorry guys. You’re right AonG I AM watching too much CNBC…

You guys are right. I realize it is silly to worry about this shit now. My biggest concern is rising prices on food, rent, and the electric bill, my three main expenses.

I’ll chill out.

74

The irony is that this whole issue is because prices are too high. Prices actually need to come down before it will be over.

75

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The irony is that this whole issue is because prices are too high. Prices actually need to come down before it will be over.[/quote]

LOL! I hear people/politicians/pundits talking earnestly about the need to “shore up” housing prices. Even people who should know better. Bassackwards.

76

The reason we have this problem in the first place is because of the socialist idea that everyone can and should own a home. The loosening on loan laws and other changes to existing regulations were put in place because -everyone should own their own home-. So everyone gets a loan and most default and can’t pay to the tune of billions!

So now the rest of us have to pay for it through the government bailout.

It is sad that these changes occurred under Republican administrations, which shows you just how liberal Republicans actually are today.

But this just once again demonstrates how socialism is a failure. These systems never elevate people, like they are supposedly designed to; they just bring everyone else down.

So the lessons learned from this real estate melt down are that socialism does not work in a capitalistic system.

77

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The irony is that this whole issue is because prices are too high. Prices actually need to come down before it will be over.[/quote]

Oil has dropped over $11 just today. Prices on everything will come down when the gasoline prices drop.

The runaway real estate bubble has burst.

Hopefully, credit will dry up to the extent that people will actually have to qualify for loans.

Based on your assumptions, and what I have said - we are closer than you think to this being “over”.

78

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The irony is that this whole issue is because prices are too high. Prices actually need to come down before it will be over.

LOL! I hear people/politicians/pundits talking earnestly about the need to “shore up” housing prices. Even people who should know better. Bassackwards. [/quote]

I know. Just what me and my wife need - shored up housing prices! Why, if starter homes in SoCal don’t stay over half a million, what will we do?

79

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
AssOnGrass wrote:
Yikes not a good day for my investments

But looking at the price of some of these prime companies is tempting.

Must. Stick. To. Paying. Off. Debt. And. Don’t. Put. Savings. Into. Market.

The PE is still in the 20s and the divident yield below 3%. Wait until the market gets to 8000 and begin nibbling , on the way down to 3000. That’s my best estimate of the bottom.

Are talking about a particular stock?

Nothing I hold has a PE of more than 17.5 - and only 2 have a PE of greater than 12. My divi yield ranges from 1.63% (Walmart) to over 27%.

I am a little confused as to what you are talking about.

The PE on the SP 500 and the dividend yield on same. While you’ll get damaged less by owning low PE stocks who are cash rich and can afford a decent dividend, the tide is going out, so to speak.

I have tried fighting falling markets before. You may have better luck than me but fighting the market is a lot tougher than many can do. Full-time pros are getting slaughtered, so good luck! (You’ll need it.)

I’ll do much better than the fear mongers. Full time pros are fools who live and die by their bolinger bands.

All of my stocks beat the magical S&P - but for one, and its only the largest retailer on the planet.

I certainly hope the chicken littles will be big enough to come back and admit they were wrong a year from now, when the markets have come back.

[/quote]

I’m not as extreme as some of these guys, like headhunter, but the market will not have “come back” in one year. Hopefully in one year it will be starting to come back.

Headhunter gave an extreme low of 3000 on the S&P. I doubt it will get that bad, but the stop off he mentioned at 8000 is very likely. I hope it only goes down to 9500 or so, in the next year to year and a half. That would indicate the long term bull is still in place.

If it does break that 8000 level, I’m sorry to say, it’s time time climb in the bunker with HH because it’s going to get very, very ugly.

80

Here’s an alternative:

I’m on board with this about 100%. A free market solution, based in law, tried-and-true, the bad get punished and whatever good of this remains:

Commentary: Bankruptcy, not bailout, is the right answer

[i]CAMBRIDGE, Massachusetts (CNN) – Congress has balked at the Bush administration’s proposed $700 billion bailout of Wall Street. Under this plan, the Treasury would have bought the “troubled assets” of financial institutions in an attempt to avoid economic meltdown.

This bailout was a terrible idea. Here’s why.

The current mess would never have occurred in the absence of ill-conceived federal policies. The federal government chartered Fannie Mae in 1938 and Freddie Mac in 1970; these two mortgage lending institutions are at the center of the crisis. The government implicitly promised these institutions that it would make good on their debts, so Fannie and Freddie took on huge amounts of excessive risk.[/i]

…more