Bagdad Falling

Sexmachine, I would be interested in your opinion on this article.

Kurds to the Rescue
How to Get the Kurdish Regional Goverment to Take on ISIS
Dov Friedman and Cale Salih
June 17, 2014
Summary:
The Kurds field the only proper army left in Iraq, and, for that reason, the United States and Iran will each attempt to draw them into the conflict. But those expecting Kurdish enthusiasm for war are likely to be disappointed. They underestimate the current strength of the Kurdish position and the continued sting of decades past, when the Kurds gave their support to the West and got nothing in return.

The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) now occupies a territory the size of Jordan, stretching from the edge of Aleppo to the outskirts of Baghdad. From there, it poses a grave threat to regional and U.S. security interests. Yet those who seek to stop it have few options. ISIS easily trounced the Iraqi security forces, which outnumbered the jihadist group 100-1. And it could likely do the same to the Iranian Revolutionary Guards that have trickled over the border to bolster the Iraqi forces; Iran?s elite fighters are simply spread too thin across Syria and Iraq. Meanwhile, the United States seems unwilling to send U.S. troops back into the fray at all.

Enter the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) and its skilled (and intact) peshmerga forces. The Kurds field the only proper army left in Iraq, and, for that reason, the United States and Iran will each attempt to draw the Kurds into the conflict. Yesterday, during a meeting in Tehran between Kurdish Prime Minister Nechirvan Barzani and Ali Shamkhani, the secretary of Iran’s Supreme National Security Council, Iranian officials reportedly asked the Kurds to join the fight against ISIS. U.S. officials apparently hope that the Kurds will step in as well. Indeed, if Washington wants to quell ISIS, the peshmerga are its best bet.

But will the United States and Iran get what they want? Some think so. Among oil executives and seasoned Iraq analysts, for example, some believe that the Kurds can be moved by the prospect of oil revenues and budgetary guarantees alone. The KRG has piped nearly three million barrels of oil to Ceyhan, Turkey, but it has struggled to sell its product on the world market – not least due to Baghdad?s interference. Should the Kurds cease to meet resistance on oil sales, the thinking goes, they will be more inclined to support the United States and Iran against ISIS.

And there are good reasons for the KRG to work for ISIS? demise. In the past, Sunni jihadists have targeted the KRG, and one week before ISIS took control of Mosul, it attacked a Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) office in Diyala, killing 18 people. ISIS is unpredictable and it could, in the near future, pose legitimate security risks to the Kurdish region. For a Kurdish government that has cultivated a reputation for providing security, ISIS attacks would be a massive blow. Moreover, although ISIS has trained its attention on Baghdad for the time being, military conflict with the Kurds could flare up in several places. ISIS is fighting sporadically with the peshmerga in northern Diyala, which the Kurds want to control because of its proximity to the Kurdish-majority city of Khanaqin. In Kirkuk, too, the line between the peshmerga and ISIS is dangerously taught. The Kurds control most of the province. Sunni insurgents, however, control the southern parts, including Hawija – the site of deadly violence between Sunni protestors and the Iraqi government last year. According to a Kurdish source, the region now shares a 1000-kilometer (620-mile) border with insurgents.

But those expecting Kurdish enthusiasm for a fight are likely to be disappointed. They underestimate the current strength of the Kurdish position and the continued sting of decades past, when the Kurds gave their support to the West and got nothing in return. In fact, the Kurds have drawn their battle lines north of Mosul, across the south of Kirkuk province, and through northern Diyala province. So long as ISIS respects that line, Kurdistan – which banks on its reputation as a stable, private-sector friendly outpost in a region fraught by sectarian turmoil – would have very little reason to invite war. After all, the Kurds have spent a decade cultivating this reputation. The KRG has fashioned a strong military with broad public support, and the government has deftly managed relations with Turkey and Iran. While Iraqis in the rest of the country live in perpetual conflict, Kurds in Erbil, the Kurdish capital, live with perpetual construction. Sustaining this success, which is largely built on oil wealth, depends on maintaining security.

History is an issue too. Simply mention the year 1975 to any Kurd, and, within moments, one will hear of U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger?s ?betrayal? – the Algiers Agreement, which temporarily ended the conflict between Iraq and Iran. The agreement left the Iraqi Kurds, who had supported the Iranian Shah, to suffer at the hands of the Baathists. The treachery is seared into Kurdistan?s collective memory as a reminder of the dangers of leaving oneself to the mercy of the established powers.

For the Kurds, 1975 is not the only problem. In the early days of the Iraq War, U.S. special forces and Kurdish peshmerga fought together against the Ansar al-Islam insurgency. The Kurds believed they had proved themselves stalwart U.S. allies, but then Paul Bremer, leader of the coalition provisional government in Iraq, sought to disarm them. After sweeping through Kirkuk in 2003, heavy U.S. pressure forced the Kurds to pull back – a moment the KRG leadership rued for years before reclaiming the revered city late last week. In addition, the Obama administration?s general disengagement from Iraq has baffled Kurdish leaders and left them with scant reason to fight on the United States? behalf

The United States isn?t the only player the Kurds mistrust. They are no fans of the Iraqi army – with which they may have to coordinate – either. In the city of Jalawla, Iraqi artillery recently fired on Kurdish forces instead of ISIS insurgents. Six peshmerga died, embittering Kurdish citizens and fueling resentment of the Iraqi army.

Yet, Kurdish troops remain the best hope for those who want to stop ISIS in Iraq, and the Obama administration will likely attempt to persuade them to join the offensive – or at least to provide substantial logistical and intelligence support to the Iraqi army. There are several things the administration must do if it desires Kurdish participation. First, it must end any talk of bolstering Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki. Maliki is a divisive brute whom Iran supports to the hilt. U.S. intimations of continued support for him will only rally the Sunni opposition, which would be radioactive for the KRG. Instead, Washington (and Tehran) should insist that Maliki put a stop to inflammatory rhetoric among members of his party and state media. Such rhetoric – allusions to an ISIS-Kurdish conspiracy, in particular – is rapidly alienating the Kurdish public.

Second, the United States must offer something concrete to the Kurds now. One option is to ease the way for the sale of Kurdish oil. The KRG has repeatedly sent tankers filled with oil into international waters seeking buyers and come back empty-handed. The United States must quietly drop its objections to Kurdish independent oil sales and facilitate the finding of willing buyers. It should then continue to support the development of an independent revenue stream to the KRG.

Third, the United States must arm the peshmerga. Mere months ago, U.S. President Barack Obama agreed to provide Maliki with yet another shipment of advanced U.S. weapons, and ISIS fighters now brandish many American-made arms. Such is the cost of Washington?s unflinching support for the Iraqi security forces. If the West seeks Kurdish help in rooting out ISIS, it must show similar commitment by arming the Kurdish military and providing support through air strikes as necessary.

Finally, the United States must commit to the KRG that it will support Kurdish claims to the disputed territories it recovered last week. For the United States to promise Kirkuk to the KRG would be foolish – a promise that the Kurds know the United States can?t fulfill. But a promise to tacitly accept Kurdish claims is another matter. This reassurance, too, must be delivered silently, as the final status of Kirkuk is an Arab-Kurdish-Turkmen issue to solve. No one would question the KRG?s skepticism at such a promise, although bold U.S. support in other ways might just convince the KRG of U.S. fidelity.

It is precisely the Kurdish belief – a fair one – that the United States has been an unreliable partner that makes the cost of Kurdish participation so high today. The Kurds maintain the dominant position in Iraq: unified, militarily superior, and little affected by internecine Arab strife. That could all change against an unpredictable foe like ISIS. But seeking out the fight is another matter entirely. To prevail upon the KRG to undertake the task, the United States must effectively bind itself to the Kurdish cause. Even then, the KRG may sit out this fight until its immediate interests are at stake, and no one could fault it. As is so often the case, it is history that presents the greatest obstacle to the fight against ISIS.

Sexmachine, I would be interested in your opinion on this article.

http://m.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141569/dov-friedman-and-cale-salih/kurds-to-the-rescue?nocache=1

Kurds to the Rescue
How to Get the Kurdish Regional Goverment to Take on ISIS
Dov Friedman and Cale Salih
June 17, 2014
Summary:
The Kurds field the only proper army left in Iraq, and, for that reason, the United States and Iran will each attempt to draw them into the conflict. But those expecting Kurdish enthusiasm for war are likely to be disappointed. They underestimate the current strength of the Kurdish position and the continued sting of decades past, when the Kurds gave their support to the West and got nothing in return.

The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) now occupies a territory the size of Jordan, stretching from the edge of Aleppo to the outskirts of Baghdad. From there, it poses a grave threat to regional and U.S. security interests. Yet those who seek to stop it have few options. ISIS easily trounced the Iraqi security forces, which outnumbered the jihadist group 100-1. And it could likely do the same to the Iranian Revolutionary Guards that have trickled over the border to bolster the Iraqi forces; Iran?s elite fighters are simply spread too thin across Syria and Iraq. Meanwhile, the United States seems unwilling to send U.S. troops back into the fray at all.

Enter the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) and its skilled (and intact) peshmerga forces. The Kurds field the only proper army left in Iraq, and, for that reason, the United States and Iran will each attempt to draw the Kurds into the conflict. Yesterday, during a meeting in Tehran between Kurdish Prime Minister Nechirvan Barzani and Ali Shamkhani, the secretary of Iran’s Supreme National Security Council, Iranian officials reportedly asked the Kurds to join the fight against ISIS. U.S. officials apparently hope that the Kurds will step in as well. Indeed, if Washington wants to quell ISIS, the peshmerga are its best bet.

But will the United States and Iran get what they want? Some think so. Among oil executives and seasoned Iraq analysts, for example, some believe that the Kurds can be moved by the prospect of oil revenues and budgetary guarantees alone. The KRG has piped nearly three million barrels of oil to Ceyhan, Turkey, but it has struggled to sell its product on the world market – not least due to Baghdad?s interference. Should the Kurds cease to meet resistance on oil sales, the thinking goes, they will be more inclined to support the United States and Iran against ISIS.

And there are good reasons for the KRG to work for ISIS? demise. In the past, Sunni jihadists have targeted the KRG, and one week before ISIS took control of Mosul, it attacked a Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) office in Diyala, killing 18 people. ISIS is unpredictable and it could, in the near future, pose legitimate security risks to the Kurdish region. For a Kurdish government that has cultivated a reputation for providing security, ISIS attacks would be a massive blow. Moreover, although ISIS has trained its attention on Baghdad for the time being, military conflict with the Kurds could flare up in several places. ISIS is fighting sporadically with the peshmerga in northern Diyala, which the Kurds want to control because of its proximity to the Kurdish-majority city of Khanaqin. In Kirkuk, too, the line between the peshmerga and ISIS is dangerously taught. The Kurds control most of the province. Sunni insurgents, however, control the southern parts, including Hawija – the site of deadly violence between Sunni protestors and the Iraqi government last year. According to a Kurdish source, the region now shares a 1000-kilometer (620-mile) border with insurgents.

But those expecting Kurdish enthusiasm for a fight are likely to be disappointed. They underestimate the current strength of the Kurdish position and the continued sting of decades past, when the Kurds gave their support to the West and got nothing in return. In fact, the Kurds have drawn their battle lines north of Mosul, across the south of Kirkuk province, and through northern Diyala province. So long as ISIS respects that line, Kurdistan – which banks on its reputation as a stable, private-sector friendly outpost in a region fraught by sectarian turmoil – would have very little reason to invite war. After all, the Kurds have spent a decade cultivating this reputation. The KRG has fashioned a strong military with broad public support, and the government has deftly managed relations with Turkey and Iran. While Iraqis in the rest of the country live in perpetual conflict, Kurds in Erbil, the Kurdish capital, live with perpetual construction. Sustaining this success, which is largely built on oil wealth, depends on maintaining security.

History is an issue too. Simply mention the year 1975 to any Kurd, and, within moments, one will hear of U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger?s ?betrayal? – the Algiers Agreement, which temporarily ended the conflict between Iraq and Iran. The agreement left the Iraqi Kurds, who had supported the Iranian Shah, to suffer at the hands of the Baathists. The treachery is seared into Kurdistan?s collective memory as a reminder of the dangers of leaving oneself to the mercy of the established powers.

For the Kurds, 1975 is not the only problem. In the early days of the Iraq War, U.S. special forces and Kurdish peshmerga fought together against the Ansar al-Islam insurgency. The Kurds believed they had proved themselves stalwart U.S. allies, but then Paul Bremer, leader of the coalition provisional government in Iraq, sought to disarm them. After sweeping through Kirkuk in 2003, heavy U.S. pressure forced the Kurds to pull back – a moment the KRG leadership rued for years before reclaiming the revered city late last week. In addition, the Obama administration?s general disengagement from Iraq has baffled Kurdish leaders and left them with scant reason to fight on the United States? behalf

The United States isn?t the only player the Kurds mistrust. They are no fans of the Iraqi army – with which they may have to coordinate – either. In the city of Jalawla, Iraqi artillery recently fired on Kurdish forces instead of ISIS insurgents. Six peshmerga died, embittering Kurdish citizens and fueling resentment of the Iraqi army.

Yet, Kurdish troops remain the best hope for those who want to stop ISIS in Iraq, and the Obama administration will likely attempt to persuade them to join the offensive – or at least to provide substantial logistical and intelligence support to the Iraqi army. There are several things the administration must do if it desires Kurdish participation. First, it must end any talk of bolstering Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki. Maliki is a divisive brute whom Iran supports to the hilt. U.S. intimations of continued support for him will only rally the Sunni opposition, which would be radioactive for the KRG. Instead, Washington (and Tehran) should insist that Maliki put a stop to inflammatory rhetoric among members of his party and state media. Such rhetoric – allusions to an ISIS-Kurdish conspiracy, in particular – is rapidly alienating the Kurdish public.

Second, the United States must offer something concrete to the Kurds now. One option is to ease the way for the sale of Kurdish oil. The KRG has repeatedly sent tankers filled with oil into international waters seeking buyers and come back empty-handed. The United States must quietly drop its objections to Kurdish independent oil sales and facilitate the finding of willing buyers. It should then continue to support the development of an independent revenue stream to the KRG.

Third, the United States must arm the peshmerga. Mere months ago, U.S. President Barack Obama agreed to provide Maliki with yet another shipment of advanced U.S. weapons, and ISIS fighters now brandish many American-made arms. Such is the cost of Washington?s unflinching support for the Iraqi security forces. If the West seeks Kurdish help in rooting out ISIS, it must show similar commitment by arming the Kurdish military and providing support through air strikes as necessary.

Finally, the United States must commit to the KRG that it will support Kurdish claims to the disputed territories it recovered last week. For the United States to promise Kirkuk to the KRG would be foolish – a promise that the Kurds know the United States can?t fulfill. But a promise to tacitly accept Kurdish claims is another matter. This reassurance, too, must be delivered silently, as the final status of Kirkuk is an Arab-Kurdish-Turkmen issue to solve. No one would question the KRG?s skepticism at such a promise, although bold U.S. support in other ways might just convince the KRG of U.S. fidelity.

It is precisely the Kurdish belief – a fair one – that the United States has been an unreliable partner that makes the cost of Kurdish participation so high today. The Kurds maintain the dominant position in Iraq: unified, militarily superior, and little affected by internecine Arab strife. That could all change against an unpredictable foe like ISIS. But seeking out the fight is another matter entirely. To prevail upon the KRG to undertake the task, the United States must effectively bind itself to the Kurdish cause. Even then, the KRG may sit out this fight until its immediate interests are at stake, and no one could fault it. As is so often the case, it is history that presents the greatest obstacle to the fight against ISIS.

^^

Yes I pretty much agree. Except I don’t think we’d have to convince them to fight ISIS. ISIS are mad dogs and have already attacked the Kurds and will continue to do so.

Good article by Dick Cheney:

http://m.asia.wsj.com/articles/dick-cheney-and-liz-cheney-the-collapsing-obama-doctrine-1403046522?mobile=y

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If victory is indefinitely spilling blood and debt-backed dollars into the soil of Iraq, where the public’s hatred for each other is only surpassed by their hatred for our presence…

Thank God for defeatists.

The whole enterprise ruined the right.

Can’t wait to see a GoP Presidential candidate campaign on “I’ll be sending troops back to Iraq!” [/quote]

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2014/IraqPollMemo.pdf
[/quote]

‘According to a National Geographic survey, 77% of Americans believe “there are signs that aliens have visited the earth.”’

More Americans believe aliens have visited Earth than believe that Jesus is the Son of God -- High Strangeness -- Sott.net

[/quote]

Not good enough for your respect, but good enough to die for a people that hate them more than they hate each other.
[/quote]

I think America is the second greatest country on earth. And regarding Iraq, I think the job should’ve been finished - to make the West safer so shit like 911 doesn’t happen again.
[/quote]

Same could be said of Russia for pulling out of Afghanistan. Same could be said for Israel and the UN for pulling out of Lebanon.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
And also explain this:

That’s the NYT write-up of the SOFA approval in Iraq. The NYT obviously loves both Obama and military defeatism, so why didn’t they make any connection between Obama and the SOFA beyond an analyst’s speculation that Iran might have been more rigid if Bush’s presidency were going to extend into 2012? Why did they describe Bush Admin. reluctance only within the context of concessions to Maliki?

I’ll answer: Because there was no such connection to make.[/quote]

That article highlights two of the points I made: that Bush was reluctant to precipitously withdraw troops. And that some of the pressure to withdraw came from the Iraqis.
[/quote]

Who you’d do what with in order to force our indefinite stay? Overthrow? The government we made sure got elected? Edit: We would’ve become, outright, in the open, under the light of the day, exactly what the Jihadis told everyone we were. Conquerors. Not security partners of a representative Iraqi government, but outright conquerors. The nation would have blown up even earlier had we pulled a stunt like that.
[/quote]

The Iraqi government would’ve allowed us to stay. By “pressure from the Iraqis” I was talking about the disenfranchised Sunnis and the Sadrists.[/quote]

Oh yes, by pulling a stunt in which our troops would obtain “diplomatic immunity” due to us going around the representative leaders of the Iraqis…That would’ve went over well with the public.

“Ways to drive up insurgent recruitment #1: Use technicalities to get around the wishes of the Iraqi public, as made clear through their representatives, of who are members of the government you made sure came about.”
[/quote]

There’s nothing to get around. The government was still in puppet phase. Ultimately they take orders.
It’s a given that they don’t like us or want us in the ME. There is no circumstance where they will voluntarily have Americans in their presence…until the shit hits the fan. Then they want us. They want us to come in, fix it and leave and come in and fix it and leave. [/quote]

Yes, and even our enemies Iran want us to. I don’t know which country has more of a schizo government. One day Iran’s President says he’s up for helping America take out Isis…the next day the Supreme Leader says no way. One day the US threatens to bomb Syria to help the rebels…the next day it wants to go to war against the same rebels. If we help Iran and Iraq, aren’t we also helping Assad, Hezbollah?

The ethics of interpersonal relationships are not applicable to the international realm. However, inter group ethics are; its cardinal rule being that statesmen should not seek the greatest good for the greatest number, but the lesser evil. Iran, Assad, and Hezbollah are arguably the lesser of two evils.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If victory is indefinitely spilling blood and debt-backed dollars into the soil of Iraq, where the public’s hatred for each other is only surpassed by their hatred for our presence…

Thank God for defeatists.

The whole enterprise ruined the right.

Can’t wait to see a GoP Presidential candidate campaign on “I’ll be sending troops back to Iraq!” [/quote]

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2014/IraqPollMemo.pdf
[/quote]

‘According to a National Geographic survey, 77% of Americans believe “there are signs that aliens have visited the earth.”’

More Americans believe aliens have visited Earth than believe that Jesus is the Son of God -- High Strangeness -- Sott.net

[/quote]

Not good enough for your respect, but good enough to die for a people that hate them more than they hate each other.
[/quote]

I think America is the second greatest country on earth. And regarding Iraq, I think the job should’ve been finished - to make the West safer so shit like 911 doesn’t happen again.
[/quote]

Same could be said of Russia for pulling out of Afghanistan. Same could be said for Israel and the UN for pulling out of Lebanon.[/quote]

Do you recall why the USSR invaded Afghanistan?

Do 275 marines sent to safeguard our embassy constitute as “boots on the ground”? If not, what type of soldiers does?

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The ethics of interpersonal relationships are not applicable to the international realm. However, inter group ethics are; its cardinal rule being that statesmen should not seek the greatest good for the greatest number, but the lesser evil. Iran, Assad, and Hezbollah are arguably the lesser of two evils.[/quote]

Not very convincingly no. Iran is a state actor as is Syria. Iran is the largest sponsor of terrorism on earth. After FARC, Hezbollah is the largest terrorist organisation on earth. Iran is a quasi-nuclear state that poses an existential threat to an important ally, seeks regional hegemony, provokes sectarian violence and destabilises a region that contains more than 40% of the world’s oil reserves.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Good article by Dick Cheney:

http://m.asia.wsj.com/articles/dick-cheney-and-liz-cheney-the-collapsing-obama-doctrine-1403046522?mobile=y[/quote]

This would get a “lolz” if it didn’t have so many layers of hypocrisy, lies, and pain and suffering attached to it.

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Good article by Dick Cheney:

http://m.asia.wsj.com/articles/dick-cheney-and-liz-cheney-the-collapsing-obama-doctrine-1403046522?mobile=y[/quote]

This would get a “lolz” if it didn’t have so many layers of hypocrisy, lies, and pain and suffering attached to it.

Mufasa[/quote]

Maybe Parents Magazine can get Andrea Yates to write a feature for their July issue.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Good article by Dick Cheney:

http://m.asia.wsj.com/articles/dick-cheney-and-liz-cheney-the-collapsing-obama-doctrine-1403046522?mobile=y[/quote]

This would get a “lolz” if it didn’t have so many layers of hypocrisy, lies, and pain and suffering attached to it.

Mufasa[/quote]

Hypocrisy? Maybe. Lies? No. I don’t like Cheney and the neocons but he’s spot on in that article.

Obama is getting hammered in the polls from all this.

On Wednesday?s ?Morning Joe? on MSNBC, NBC chief White House correspondent Chuck Todd reacted to the latest NBC/Wall Street Journal poll showing President Barack Obama?s job approval rating at 41 percent, matching a previous low, and also finding 54 percent of those polled saying they no longer feel the president ?is able to lead the country and get the job done.?

According to Todd, this is a sign that the American public has determined this is the beginning of the end of Obama?s presidency and he likened it to then-President George W. Bush after Hurricane Katrina, in which his poll numbers took a hit for his administration of the disaster?s aftermath.

?This poll is a disaster for the president,? Todd said. ?You look at the presidency here: lowest job rating, tied for the lowest; lowest on foreign policy. His administration is seen as less competent than the Bush administration, post-Katrina.?

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Good article by Dick Cheney:

http://m.asia.wsj.com/articles/dick-cheney-and-liz-cheney-the-collapsing-obama-doctrine-1403046522?mobile=y[/quote]

This would get a “lolz” if it didn’t have so many layers of hypocrisy, lies, and pain and suffering attached to it.

Mufasa[/quote]

Hypocrisy? Maybe. Lies? No. I don’t like Cheney and the neocons but he’s spot on in that article.[/quote]

Cheney is a joke. He has lost any cedibility he may have had. This is a desperate attempt to avoid responsibility for the worst US decision made during my lifetime. The man that applied for and received 5 deferments when it was his time to serve has been to willing to send others to fight and die.

…when asked about his deferments, Cheney reportedly said, “I had other priorities in the '60s than military service”.

In addition; he is the ‘mastermind’ behind the expansion of executive branch power. No friend of liberty and freedom here.

(And I’ll take a “strawman hit” or whatever on this one… because I can’t get past Cheney’s arrogance…)

Let’s also try 40 BILLION plus for IRAQ ALONE for Halliburton (…and counting…and not counting Afghanistan…)

Millions of dollars for him in the War “effort”…

And most importantly, the death and sacrifice of thousands of Americans.

Cheney just needs to retire on his millions and shoot some more of his friends…

Mufasa

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Cheney is a joke. He has lost any cedibility he may have had.
[/quote]

All the neocons are a joke. They are all Corporatists in disguise, and the ruling ones at that, who like to wear the faux costume of duty, honor, and service to convince others to go and die for imperial expansion so they can exploit the resources, monopolize the infrastructure deals, and finance all of it through their banking system, profiting thrice over.

I wouldn’t have much a problem with it if the American people really benefited as much as they like to say we do.

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Cheney is a joke. He has lost any cedibility he may have had.
[/quote]

All the neocons are a joke. They are all Corporatists in disguise, and the ruling ones at that, who like to wear the faux costume of duty, honor, and service to convince others to go and die for imperial expansion so they can exploit the resources, monopolize the infrastructure deals, and finance all of it through their banking system, profiting thrice over.

I wouldn’t have much a problem with it if the American people really benefited as much as they like to say we do.[/quote]

Wait, theuofh…

Won’t they “Make America stronger”…?

Mufasa

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The ethics of interpersonal relationships are not applicable to the international realm. However, inter group ethics are; its cardinal rule being that statesmen should not seek the greatest good for the greatest number, but the lesser evil. Iran, Assad, and Hezbollah are arguably the lesser of two evils.[/quote]

Not very convincingly no. Iran is a state actor as is Syria. Iran is the largest sponsor of terrorism on earth. After FARC, Hezbollah is the largest terrorist organisation on earth. Iran is a quasi-nuclear state that poses an existential threat to an important ally, seeks regional hegemony, provokes sectarian violence and destabilises a region that contains more than 40% of the world’s oil reserves.[/quote]

What are we going to do about the MEK which was taken off the official state department terrorist organization list, specifically to combat Iran.

General William Odom has a paper out there that I found personally interesting arguing that this second Iraq war was the worst foreign policy mistake in American history and his arguments are compelling. The guy isn’t a left wing nutjob either. It’s worth a read to see the diplomatic contrasts between our involvements in the first and second Iraq wars. The first was the result of brilliant diplomacy, statesmanship, and deal making that should be expected of worthy leadership with foresight and competence. The second was a disastrous result of unilateralism, arrogance, and greed, doomed to fail from the very beginning.

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
Do 275 marines sent to safeguard our embassy constitute as “boots on the ground”? If not, what type of soldiers does?[/quote]

Offensive infantry or special operations forces. Pretty simple.