Bagdad Falling

[In case anybody missed it, cause it’s sure as shit that nobody refuted any of it. I’ve updated it and added a bunch of aggressive dead-horse-kicking, anyway. This hopefully concludes my participation in this thread.]

Here, in this debate, we’ve seen the stupidest kind of partisanship on full reeking display.

We have a situation that two presidents, one Republican and one Democrat, failed to correctly handle, to literally the exact same effect. We have two presidents with the (admittedly very difficult) opportunity, desire, and responsibility to secure a remnant American security force in Iraq–and we have both of their utter failures to that end. Neither of them won the concession of a 10,000-troop presence. Neither of them won the concession of a 7,000-troop presence. Neither of them won the concession of a 3,500-troop presence. Neither of them won the concession of a ten-troop presence. Bush got…Nothing. Obama got…Nada. Between the two of them, they got…Zip, Zilch, Niente, Squat, Zot, Naught, Jack-Diddly. If you add Bush’s victory on the question of a remnant security force in Iraq to Obama’s victory on the same question, you get…Zero. Nuttin. Nichts. If Bush’s and Obama’s respective achievements in negotiating an enduring American troop presence in Iraq were both clouds, and you put them in the sky, the forecast would read…Wear Your Fuckin Sunscreen. If they were horses, and they were to race, they would…both die of a heart attack at the sound of the starting gun. If they were testicles, the people they belonged to would both be…eunuchs. If they were bills in my wallet, I would be…dead broke.

And yet one of the two presidents is being condemned and singled out as the sole recipient of blame (“It was all his idea;” “the question at hand is what Obama could have done”; and, my personal favorite: “I am psychic and have the ability to read people’s heart and minds and I read Obama’s conscience and discovered that he never really wanted the enduring troop presence he tried to negotiate with Maliki, which Maliki refused…but don’t ask for me to actually prove this* because that isn’t fair, and I never, never, never will”)…whereas the other president is being obliquely defended or at least absolved of guilt and shamefully unmentioned. Or, where the latter president is also condemned, it is only after the condemnation’s having to be beaten out of the condemner.

All this despite the fact that this wretched drawling recipient of PWI grace and forgiveness, in a moment of scintillating and abject failure, created the whole shitstorm of a problem in the first place.

A clearer taste of bullshit and hackery is difficult to imagine.


*Or, prove it. Don’t suggest, don’t imply, don’t ask rhetorical questions, don’t interpret the words of mealy-mouthed press secretaries (who are speaking in the future conditional tense about ongoing negotiations) and pretend that your interpretation is evidentially superior to what we plainly know, in the past tense, about who offered what and who refused what during the SOFA negotiations of the summer of 2011. In other words, prove your contention beyond doubt, or surrender the point.

And remember that press secretaries are supposed to couch negotiations in such terms that, whatever the outcome of the talks, the administration is perceived to have won. That is literally what a press secretary is paid for.

Only what Obama’s spokesidiot said, what Obama said, Obama’s main first term platform, Obama’s second term bragging platform and Obama’s actions indicate that he desired nothing of the sort.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Only what Obama’s spokesidiot said, what Obama said, Obama’s main first term platform, Obama’s second term bragging platform and Obama’s actions indicate that he desired nothing of the sort. [/quote]

[quote]
smh_23 wrote:

Don’t suggest, don’t imply, don’t ask rhetorical questions, don’t interpret the words of mealy-mouthed press secretaries (who are speaking in the future conditional tense about ongoing negotiations) and pretend that your interpretation is evidentially superior to what we plainly know, in the past tense, about who offered what and who refused what during the SOFA negotiations of the summer of 2011. In other words, prove your contention beyond doubt, or surrender the point.[/quote]

“Iraq’s prime minister said Saturday that U.S. troops are leaving Iraq after nearly nine years of war because Baghdad rejected American demands that any U.S. military forces to stay would have to be shielded from prosecution or lawsuits.
The comments by Nouri al-Maliki, a Shiite, made clear that it was Iraq who refused to let the U.S. military remain under the Americans’ terms.”

Disprove this:

[quote]
We have a situation that two presidents, one Republican and one Democrat, failed to correctly handle, to literally the exact same effect.[/quote]

…and all of the other evidence I’ve offered in unconditional proof of the [b]fact[/b] --fact, as in fact, as in f-a-c-t, as in “it happened,” as in, “I have proved that it happened”–that both Bush and Obama tried and failed to negotiate a remnant American security force in Iraq, with each of them winning the concession of exactly nothing.

Or don’t, in which case my purpose in this thread has been satisfied.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
And remember that press secretaries are supposed to couch negotiations in such terms that, whatever the outcome of the talks, the administration is perceived to have won. That is literally what a press secretary is paid for.[/quote]

Indeed, press secretaries do not conduct diplomacy, but serve as political mouthpieces aimed toward the press and the public. Foreign leaders and diplomatic staff understand this. Unless Sexmachine can produce lukewarm diplomatic cables regarding SOFA, his contention of American acquiescence is a moot point.

I’m not really interested in comparing Bush and Obama. I don’t like either of them. I was making a point about SOFA - namely, that it is abundantly clear that the current administration was determined to pull stumps as quickly as possible. They not only said so they bragged about it. And your response is that they didn’t really mean it. Carney was just saying what press secretaries are supposed to say. Obama bragged about it but he was really lying. You have to ask yourself, when defending the president requires you to say he’s lying maybe your argument isn’t as strong as you think it is.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

I’m not really interested in comparing Bush and Obama. I don’t like either of them. I was making a point about SOFA - namely, that it is abundantly clear that the current administration was determined to pull stumps as quickly as possible. They not only said so they bragged about it. And your response is that they didn’t really mean it. Carney was just saying what press secretaries are supposed to say. Obama bragged about it but he was really lying. You have to ask yourself, when defending the president requires you to say he’s lying maybe your argument isn’t as strong as you think it is.[/quote]

It is a political virtue to be able to lie and able to lie well. If Obama was unable to achieve his desire for a remnant security force in Iraq, he might as well politically capitalize on the withdraw of American forces. Machiavelli would have understood as much.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

I’m not really interested in comparing Bush and Obama. I don’t like either of them. I was making a point about SOFA - namely, that it is abundantly clear that the current administration was determined to pull stumps as quickly as possible. They not only said so they bragged about it. And your response is that they didn’t really mean it. Carney was just saying what press secretaries are supposed to say. Obama bragged about it but he was really lying. You have to ask yourself, when defending the president requires you to say he’s lying maybe your argument isn’t as strong as you think it is.[/quote]

Except that I am not defending him. I am correcting a fantasy. Whether you are interested in comparing Bush and Obama or not, I came into this thread with a clear purpose and a clear argument regarding the shared responsibilities of Bush and Obama. If you did not want to refute that argument, it would have saved us a lot of time for you to have said so. As it stands, my argument has been proved correct, and it rests.

As for Obama’s rhetoric, I have addressed this a half a dozen times now, and not a single time has my argument been countered. But I’ll offer a closing thought on that too. I don’t cite the things presidents say in press conferences. I don’t cite the things press secretaries say. I don’t cite stump speeches. I don’t cite political rhetoric. What I cite is evidence: data, documents, studies, reputable and fact-checked reporting on hard news. Say I decide to switch it up and begin building arguments from the raw materials of political waffling, spin, and bullshit. What kind of narrative do you think I can construct? Obama got Bin Laden. Obama passed a rainbows-and-free-blowjobs-awesome-success of a health care bill. Obama saved the world from economic collapse. Obama saved the environment. And women. And puppies. In other words, [u]If I prove that Obama said X, have I proved X? I thought not.[/u] please stop to consider the logical consequences of my previous sentence.

So, questions that need answers:

Did Bush negotiate with Maliki on the subject of an enduring troop presence, and, if so, did he secure such?

Did Obama negotiate with Maliki on the subject of an enduring troop presence, and, if so, did he secure such?

The answers to those question are clear, simple, and constitute the entirety of my argument here.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

I’m not really interested in comparing Bush and Obama. I don’t like either of them. I was making a point about SOFA - namely, that it is abundantly clear that the current administration was determined to pull stumps as quickly as possible. They not only said so they bragged about it. And your response is that they didn’t really mean it. Carney was just saying what press secretaries are supposed to say. Obama bragged about it but he was really lying. You have to ask yourself, when defending the president requires you to say he’s lying maybe your argument isn’t as strong as you think it is.[/quote]

It is a political virtue to be able to lie and able to lie well. If Obama was unable to achieve his desire for a remnant security force in Iraq, he might as well politically capitalize on the withdraw of American forces. Machiavelli would have understood as much. [/quote]

But he ran on a platform of withdrawing long before SOFA was negotiated by Bush. Obama was calling for withdrawal right from the start. To argue that he was lying for years before he was elected is absurd. Obama was a radical anti-war kook in the George McGovern mould from the get go.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
And remember that press secretaries are supposed to couch negotiations in such terms that, whatever the outcome of the talks, the administration is perceived to have won. That is literally what a press secretary is paid for.[/quote]

Indeed, press secretaries do not conduct diplomacy, but serve as political mouthpieces aimed toward the press and the public. Foreign leaders and diplomatic staff understand this…[/quote]

as does Sexmachine.

Obama’s staff’s spin on the latest success/failure/action/inaction has never before stood as valid evidence for someone as understanding of political processes as Sexmachine–as well it should not have–and yet now, suddenly, it has become the gold standard of evidence, despite the fact–and I can’t stress enough that this is fact–that we know (and I have proved) without doubt that Maliki refused Obama’s offers of an enduring troop presence, just as he’d refused Bush’s. I can’t phrase things any more clearly. There is nothing to wonder about; there is no interpretation or guesswork necessary. We know what happened.

And yet your “proof” is what Maliki “said at a press conference.” And I’m sorry to break it to you, but NBC quoting what Maliki said at a press conference does not constitute “hard news.”

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

And yet your “proof” is what Maliki “said at a press conference.” And I’m sorry to break it to you, but NBC quoting what Maliki said at a press conference does not constitute “hard news.”[/quote]

Point taken on Maliki.

But I have offered dozens of other pieces of evidence and actual hard news reports, and you and I both know that the Iraqis refused both Bush and Obama on the question of a remnant security force. Do you have evidence in refutation of this? Or no?

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

I’m not really interested in comparing Bush and Obama. I don’t like either of them. I was making a point about SOFA - namely, that it is abundantly clear that the current administration was determined to pull stumps as quickly as possible. They not only said so they bragged about it. And your response is that they didn’t really mean it. Carney was just saying what press secretaries are supposed to say. Obama bragged about it but he was really lying. You have to ask yourself, when defending the president requires you to say he’s lying maybe your argument isn’t as strong as you think it is.[/quote]

It is a political virtue to be able to lie and able to lie well. If Obama was unable to achieve his desire for a remnant security force in Iraq, he might as well politically capitalize on the withdraw of American forces. Machiavelli would have understood as much. [/quote]

But he ran on a platform of withdrawing long before SOFA was negotiated by Bush. Obama was calling for withdrawal right from the start. To argue that he was lying for years before he was elected is absurd. Obama was a radical anti-war kook in the George McGovern mould from the get go.[/quote]

Being against the Iraq war makes one a radical anti-war kook, how exactly? Do you honestly believe that candidates for high political office are candid in all their positions, or are they forced to adopt (or take advantage of) what is in political vogue? Again, rhetoric means little in comparison to empirical evidence, of which there is an abundance: Obama assuredly hasn’t shied away from the use of military force. Despite his rhetoric, he embraced it as a tool of foreign policy.


A senior U.S. military official confirmed the departure and said the withdrawal could allow future but limited U.S. military training missions in Iraq if requested.

Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

Throughout the discussions, Iraqi leaders have adamantly refused to give U.S. troops immunity from prosecution in Iraqi courts, and the Americans have refused to stay without it. Iraq’s leadership has been split on whether it wanted American forces to stay. Some argued the further training and U.S. help was vital, particularly to protect Iraq’s airspace and gather security intelligence. But others have deeply opposed any American troop presence, including Shiite militiamen who have threatened attacks on any American forces who remain.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has told U.S. military officials that he does not have the votes in parliament to provide immunity to the American trainers, the U.S. military official said.

A western diplomatic official in Iraq said al-Maliki told international diplomats he will not bring the immunity issue to parliament because lawmakers will not approve it.


President Obamaâ??s speech formally declaring that the last 43,000 U.S. troops will leave Iraq by the end of the year was designed to mask an unpleasant truth: The troops arenâ??t being withdrawn because the U.S. wants them out. Theyâ??re leaving because the Iraqi government refused to let them stay.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/u-s-troop-withdrawal-motivated-by-iraqi-insistence-not-u-s-choice-20111021

So, claim: Both Bush and Obama sought the concession of a remnant American security force in Iraq beyond December, 2011, and both Bush and Obama failed to that end.

Accepted, or rejected?

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

And yet your “proof” is what Maliki “said at a press conference.” And I’m sorry to break it to you, but NBC quoting what Maliki said at a press conference does not constitute “hard news.”[/quote]

Point taken on Maliki.

But I have offered dozens of other pieces of evidence and actual harad news reports, and you and I both know that the Iraqis refused both Bush and Obama on the question of a remnant security force. Do you have evidence in refutation of this? Or no?[/quote]

Yes it’s true the Iraqis didn’t accept Obama’s terms. My contention is that Obama didn’t really want them to. Obama needed a withdrawal for his second term election. Mr Nobel Peace Prize ran on a “I ended the war” platform. That was his rhetoric and spin. And pulling out of Iraq was an essential component of that narrative.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Disprove this:

[quote]
We have a situation that two presidents, one Republican and one Democrat, failed to correctly handle, to literally the exact same effect.[/quote]

…and all of the other evidence I’ve offered in unconditional proof of the [b]fact[/b] --fact, as in fact, as in f-a-c-t, as in “it happened,” as in, “I have proved that it happened”–that both Bush and Obama tried and failed to negotiate a remnant American security force in Iraq, with each of them winning the concession of exactly nothing.

Or don’t, in which case my purpose in this thread has been satisfied.[/quote]

Only the sitting president can make decisions about troops deployment, not the former one. What’s hard to understand about that point I do not know.

Obama claimed to pull the troops out of Iraq all on his lonesome. He claimed it was his decision, he was right. His own words bare this out. He took all the credit, he deserves all the blame. The previous president can negotiate things, but the sitting president makes the decisions as to whether what the previous president is still relevant or not. The sitting president had the information available to make an informed decision on the troop withdrawal, he was advised by many that it was to soon to pull the troops. Obama, despite this information pulled the troops anyway.
It’s a decision only the sitting president can make. I really don’t see whats so hard about that or why you stubbornly hang on to blaming it on Bush. It wasn’t Bush’s decision to make. Even if he wanted to make the decision, he could not.
You can blame Bush all you want for going in, but you can’t blame him from pulling out. If McCain or Romney were president, they would not have pulled the troops out because it was a dumb decision to do so.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Yes it’s true the Iraqis didn’t accept Obama’s terms. My contention is that Obama didn’t really want them to. Obama needed a withdrawal for his second term election. Mr Nobel Peace Prize ran on a “I ended the war” platform. That was his rhetoric and spin. And pulling out of Iraq was an essential component of that narrative.[/quote]

But my challenge is that this contention requires proof in order to be accepted here. It cannot simply be a “hunch.” Well, it can, but it is then a personal speculation, not a good peg on which to hang an argument in debate.

If Obama really hadn’t wanted any troops to remain, why make the offer at all?

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
So, claim: Both Bush and Obama sought the concession of a remnant American security force in Iraq beyond December, 2011, and both Bush and Obama failed to that end.

Accepted, or rejected?[/quote]

Obama made a pretence of seeking it. And the article you posted above contains a fallacy. It’s not true that the Iraqis were adamant against immunity. They came close to accepting it. The reason they didn’t is because the Sunni block in parliament tied unrelated conditions to their acceptance that Maliki was not prepared to accept.