Agreed Chushin, but I still think it’s insane for us to call for air strikes against Isis which would help our decades old enemy Iran. Let the Iranians and Isis have a war and see what happens.
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Whether it was a good idea to go into Iraq or not is irrelevant. I don’t know or care.
What matters is abandoning the situation and creating a terror state, which is what is happening.
Note ISIS has already kidnapped 3 people outside of Iraq – one American.
The exportation of Islamic jihad from this new safe haven has started.
And coming to a city near you, unless it is crushed.
[/quote]
I’m not talking about whether or not it was right to go into Iraq and I’m not criticizing either administration. In order to remove the risk from that area we would have to go in and stay in. We would have to build infrastructure. We would have to help them totally recreate their society just like we did in Germany and Japan. WW1 happened because the war was fought, won, and then Germany was left to revel in its destruction. Contrast that to WWII where we stayed in place and helped them.
If we had stayed in Iraq and built them up then the situation would be different. But we knew from day one that we weren’t going to do that so we should not be surprised by the outcome.
james
[/quote]
True. Look, we are still in Korea.
I’ve always been a strong supporter of Kurdish independence. Spread across four countries(Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria), they have been oppressed for centuries. The recorded history of the Kurds in this region dates back to 2400BC. During the First World War they helped the allies fight the Turks and were promised independence - a promise the allies then reneged upon as they did with the Jews. The Turks have also carried out pogroms against the Kurds. Also, to my knowledge the Kurds have never presented a threat to the West.
Our city has one of the largest Kurdish populations in the U.S. I’ve met plenty of them, and they are great people. Most that I’ve met are Christian refugees.
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
Well, I have it from on-the-ground authority that we are about to evac our embassy in Bagdad, at least of all non-essentials. Probably everyone. Friend called to get me and everyone I know to pray for his safety.
So, please pray for the men who are left.
My step-father (six years Vietnam) came to see me after I was done with getting the rig crews out this morning. He gave his youth to our country to see it betrayed as we fled basically for public opinion reasons, not military reasons.
He knew I’d be furious about basically wasting my youth in the same manner. Except now it is worse because now we are giving a country to allies/successors of the very people who blew up the twin towers.
I’m over doing stupid things, so his trip was unnecessary.
I am, however, beyond disappointed in the leadership in the USA for letting this happen.
Last one out, shred the code book.
(Photo: Saigon, 1975)[/quote]
I was 17 when that happened , I remember it. American youth will never learn . That is why they do not let older people in because they remember the way the military gets FUCKED , every time
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
…
I don’t give a shit about Sunni vs. Shiites…[/quote]
Can’t both sides lose?[/quote]
How much of a presence is there for the Scooby Doobies, the Yogi Yahooeys, and the Really Rottens?
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
…
I don’t give a shit about Sunni vs. Shiites…[/quote]
Can’t both sides lose?[/quote]
How much of a presence is there for the Scooby Doobies, the Yogi Yahooeys, and the Really Rottens?[/quote]
I think the Really Rottens are over-represented in this case.
Is anyone really surprised? I mean, when we pulled our troops out what did people THINK would happen? The Iraqi people hated us and wanted us to go. Let them enjoy their sharia law for a while.
The only “solution” (if you can call it that) is to retake the country, occupy it, and use their oil money to pay us to help them build their country. The only way I’d support us going back is if they gave us rights to their oil. The fringe benefit is that we could then strategically place a shit ton of forces on the Iran border for the upcoming war with them - then eventually we could have TWO oil producing countries and we could use those profits to pay off our debt, strengthen our military that Obama cut and support the welfare state. That would enable us to lower taxes and fund a better infrastructure in our country. It would be a nice shot in the arm for the economy. Other than that, we should stay the fuck out and let them handle their own problems.
Let us win your hearts and minds, or we’ll burn your damn huts down
-USMC
Fuck 'em
Why not support Kurdish independence? Help the Kurds create a sovereign state taking a bite out of Iran, Iraq and Syria - Kurdistan would be a bulwark against the loonies in Iran, Iraq and Syria. Secure oil contracts with the Kurds, bolster the Peshmerga, encourage Kurdish nationalism and Kurdish migration from Lebanon and Turkey. Cut off the Sunni’s lines of communication between Syria and Iraq and let the crazies duke it out in their isolated rump states.
I’m curious…
Anyone heard or read how the Kurds are handling the inevitable influx of refugees from the South?
They seem to have little tolerance for Zealots and crazies (as well they should). On the other hand, there are certainly good, solid people among the refugees.
(Again…just curious…)
Mufasa
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Why not support Kurdish independence? Help the Kurds create a sovereign state taking a bite out of Iran, Iraq and Syria - Kurdistan would be a bulwark against the loonies in Iran, Iraq and Syria. Secure oil contracts with the Kurds, bolster the Peshmerga, encourage Kurdish nationalism and Kurdish migration from Lebanon and Turkey. Cut off the Sunni’s lines of communication between Syria and Iraq and let the crazies duke it out in their isolated rump states.[/quote]
This is very interesting. Is there a work that you can refer me to that advocates for the establishment of Kurdistan as a buffer state?
What of Iranian Kurdistan in northwest Iran and Turkish Kurdistan in southeastern Turkey?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Is anyone really surprised? I mean, when we pulled our troops out what did people THINK would happen? The Iraqi people hated us and wanted us to go. Let them enjoy their sharia law for a while.
The only “solution” (if you can call it that) is to retake the country, occupy it, and use their oil money to pay us to help them build their country. The only way I’d support us going back is if they gave us rights to their oil. The fringe benefit is that we could then strategically place a shit ton of forces on the Iran border for the upcoming war with them - then eventually we could have TWO oil producing countries and we could use those profits to pay off our debt, strengthen our military that Obama cut and support the welfare state. That would enable us to lower taxes and fund a better infrastructure in our country. It would be a nice shot in the arm for the economy. Other than that, we should stay the fuck out and let them handle their own problems.
Let us win your hearts and minds, or we’ll burn your damn huts down
-USMC
Fuck 'em[/quote]
I take It you’ve never studied COIN doctrine. Yes, because explicit neo-imperialism would work out so much better than than Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Subsequently invade Iran? Are you serious? They wouldn’t hesitate to actualize their existing breakout capacity and become a nuclear weapons state in six weeks at the latest. They wouldn’t hesitate to use tactical nuclear weapons against US forces. Iran’s military is also much more robust than Iraq’s circa 2003.
In conclusion, what you are advocating is not only illegal and unethical, but beyond foolish.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Is anyone really surprised? I mean, when we pulled our troops out what did people THINK would happen? The Iraqi people hated us and wanted us to go. Let them enjoy their sharia law for a while.
The only “solution” (if you can call it that) is to retake the country, occupy it, and use their oil money to pay us to help them build their country. The only way I’d support us going back is if they gave us rights to their oil. The fringe benefit is that we could then strategically place a shit ton of forces on the Iran border for the upcoming war with them - then eventually we could have TWO oil producing countries and we could use those profits to pay off our debt, strengthen our military that Obama cut and support the welfare state. That would enable us to lower taxes and fund a better infrastructure in our country. It would be a nice shot in the arm for the economy. Other than that, we should stay the fuck out and let them handle their own problems.
Let us win your hearts and minds, or we’ll burn your damn huts down
-USMC
Fuck 'em[/quote]
Well, quite frankly, what did people think would happen when put our troops IN Iraq? This result has been inevitable since Day One, and only a buffoon would have expected anything significantly different. This ball got rolling in 2003, not 2011.
And that’s not my way of blaming Bush for all of this. No, the Dems voted wholesale for this shit show and both sides deserve equal blame for this debacle.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
This is very interesting. Is there a work that you can refer me to that advocates for the establishment of Kurdistan as a buffer state?
[/quote]
It’s my idea but I’m sure others have come to the same conclusion. I don’t really read much stuff on foreign policy. I study social, cultural, political and military history. As you’re probably aware, after the First World War the allies drew up most of the ME without taking into account ethnic divisions. Iraq’s borders were based on the ancient Mesopotamian Kingdom without reference to the fact that the Shia occupied the South, the Sunnis the North and the Kurds the North-East. Many observers have advocated the division of Iraq into three states.
Regarding media reports of Baghdad “falling” to ISIS: keep in mind that Sadr city, for example has one million Shia. As you know, Sunnis and Shias disagree on many things like who the successor of Muhammed was. Another thing they disagree on is decapitation. The Sunnis believe the Shia should be decapitated but the Shia disagree with this theological interpretation. So the one million Shia in Sadr city will likely not agree to be decapitated by the ten thousand or so ISIS insurgents. That’s one of the reasons Baghdad will not “fall” to ISIS in the foreseeable future.
[quote]
What of Iranian Kurdistan in northwest Iran and Turkish Kurdistan in southeastern Turkey?[/quote]
I advocate a Kurdish state in Iran, Syria and Iraq. Turkey would not be happy about losing part of their country and having their borders redrawn. Neither would Iran, Iraq or Syria but in those cases it doesn’t matter.
Barack Hussein Al-Amriki issues fatwa and sends US troops to Iraq:
and:
U.S. officials with access to the latest U.S. intelligence on Iraq told Fox News it “appears likely/probable” that U.S.-made Stinger missiles have fallen into the hands of Sunni insurgents.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Barack Hussein Al-Amriki issues fatwa and sends US troops to Iraq:
and:
U.S. officials with access to the latest U.S. intelligence on Iraq told Fox News it “appears likely/probable” that U.S.-made Stinger missiles have fallen into the hands of Sunni insurgents.
[/quote]
Well I support his decision to not leave another US Embassy to get blown up and people killed. At least there won’t be a second Benghazi. If that’s what all this is about–really–then that is acceptable. It is a variant of what both you and I said should have been done before Benghazi and in response to the initial attack. So you can criticize Obama for going back on his statement that “no more US soldiers will go back to Iraq” but it’s an evac mission (at least nominally) and it is evac for people we left to die the last time. 275 soldiers is not enough to do anything in that city besides the stated purpose…that I know of at least.
On the flip side I think talking with Iran is a terrible idea.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Barack Hussein Al-Amriki issues fatwa and sends US troops to Iraq:
and:
U.S. officials with access to the latest U.S. intelligence on Iraq told Fox News it “appears likely/probable” that U.S.-made Stinger missiles have fallen into the hands of Sunni insurgents.
[/quote]
Well I support his decision to not leave another US Embassy to get blown up and people killed. At least there won’t be a second Benghazi. If that’s what all this is about–really–then that is acceptable. It is a variant of what both you and I said should have been done before Benghazi and in response to the initial attack. So you can criticize Obama for going back on his statement that “no more US soldiers will go back to Iraq” but it’s an evac mission (at least nominally) and it is evac for people we left to die the last time. 275 soldiers is not enough to do anything in that city besides the stated purpose…that I know of at least.
On the flip side I think talking with Iran is a terrible idea.[/quote]
I agree. But let’s wait and see if military “advisers” are sent next. The media are also reporting that special forces may be sent. I thought Marines protect US embassies not special forces. But we may not actually find out what’s going on. After all, who the hell knows what was going on in Libya?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Barack Hussein Al-Amriki issues fatwa and sends US troops to Iraq:
and:
U.S. officials with access to the latest U.S. intelligence on Iraq told Fox News it “appears likely/probable” that U.S.-made Stinger missiles have fallen into the hands of Sunni insurgents.
[/quote]
I wonder is they mistakenly found their way to Ali-Bama’s beloved Sunnis thru Bengahzi???
Hmmm???
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Barack Hussein Al-Amriki issues fatwa and sends US troops to Iraq:
and:
U.S. officials with access to the latest U.S. intelligence on Iraq told Fox News it “appears likely/probable” that U.S.-made Stinger missiles have fallen into the hands of Sunni insurgents.
[/quote]
I wonder is they mistakenly found their way to Ali-Bama’s beloved Sunnis thru Bengahzi???
Hmmm???
[/quote]