I’m going to see what my experience is like with Royal…because it’s what I can afford upfront right now. If I have a bad experience, I will be sure to let others know.
Likewise, I will also mention the benefits of the treatment as well if things go smoothly. I can already tell you some of the things I worry about regarding Royal, namely the “to good to be true” initial cost for treatment, but I will see firsthand what they offer and where they may or may not be a good service for guys in my financial bind. These clinics aren’t perfect but neither is TRT at this time. Believe me, I will let you guys know the contrast between this and what I’ve heard about and explored. I won’t say much about it until I get the big picture. It’s definitely for people in a bind like myself, we’ll see if it’s more or less than that.
Defy was originally my first choice since I’ve heard so much from some of the guys here on how great a service they are for the price.
If nothing else, seeking another avenue will give some insight into alternative options.
No doubt that we get what we pay for the majority of the time. I’m hoping this is worth it.
Low-T Nation has also been a resource for a wealth of information. I respect Dr Nichols a great deal as well. I’ve followed TOT revolution, which is insightful with all the different doctors on Jay’s show, but I can barely stand Jay talking…like most folks in this industry, he’s highly money motivated but helpful nonetheless.
Right on, let us know how it goes. I have a consult with Defy & Entourage so I’m going to see which one I like the most and go from there. Thanks again for all the help, made me confident i’m pursuing the right option with my current levels.
Yeah brother, let me know about your experience as well. I may have to utilize their services if this doesn’t work out.
He makes money via passion. He’s effective that way. He can’t spread a good message to help others if he is broke 
He’s helped me tremendously without any incentive. Trust me he truly cares.
Are you referring to Dr Nichols or Jay?
Jay c
With LOW T Nation you don’t speak to a doctor when questions arise. They have a guy who tries to answer and decipher. You just spin your wheels and get nowhere. Thus my move to a doctor who has the answers … no longer need to rely on myself to do this properly.
Ah, Jay. Yes, I know what you mean. I think he’s made this his career and should get paid like the others who dedicate themselves to this practice. I just get a weird salesman like vibe from the guy…like he’s pushing to hard and sometimes steers the doctors in the direction he wants…look, it could totally be me enackers. I could be way off. Something about him just seems off to me. I’m probably one of the few who are bothered by his persona. I used to work in a shark tank sales environment selling corporate drug rehab facilities to individuals who were very wealthy and he just reminds me of some of the guys who pushed really hard on their clients. Some of them did well…just bothers me…dunno why.
One thing you could try is looking into the docs on staff. Once in a while there will be a guy that has an interest in this area. He may even be supplementing deficient levels.
After working with these guys (as a patient) for at least 20 years, I can tell you that explaining something to them won’t work. Virtially every patient has just checked the internet and is ready to grab the guy RX pad. I can tell you as a scientific consultant that I have clients tell me every day they have researched this and that and 90 percent of the time they aren’t even on the right planet. Occasionally someone will know what they are talking about and in this case, I listen carefully. If I can learn something new it’s a great day.
If you go in there uninformed and then try and explain why they are wrong, there is no incentive for them to do anything but what they know.
On the other hand, if you are thoughtful, articulate in explaining why you are there and what you want, you may have an opportunity to same something. Keep in mind that monologuing is just irritating to most people (sort of like I do here).
They are in the the business to help, you simply need to make it impossible for them not to help you.
I am saying the following because it’s obvious you have low levels ot T. Remember that the lab’s referance range is based on the lab’s refrerance group. This is a group of patients that should represent a normal population. Of course it doesn’t because healthy individuals avoid needles. So the lab runs some calcs, comes up the the 95 percent confidence interval and there it is - a referance range. Kaiser’s lower than typical low end of the range is simply a testament to their efficiency. They do a good job of sending ill patients for blood work and those that don’t need it don’t get it. This pushes the absurdly low range practically into the prepubescent territory. If you understand this and can explain well, you mihgt get one crack at selling your position.
or…
Review the Endocrine Society’s practice guidelines. Pay very careful attention to the key words used in defining the history or a deficient male. You must have most of these with levels as low as yours. If you present a textbook case of hormone deficiency, then the response should be textbook, else they are ignoring the standard of practice - something they will not do because of the liabiltiy.
PLEASE NOT THAT I AM NOT IN ANY WAY SUGGESTING THAT YOU MANUFACTURE SYMPTOMS OR MISLEAD THE DOC. Rather I am helping you refine your message when you clearly have a problem. I think it’s safe to stop here.
Have you ever seen anyone of TRT authority straight up call him out out and challenge him on an idea? If so, how did he concede to the argument? I would like to see him challenge an authority figure and not take a backdoor out of the debate. There’s plenty of debate in TRT and doctors disagree directly with each other but respectfully disagree without any support from another doctor…that I find interesting and it says a lot about their character when they take the high road and bow out openly and gracefully. Winning an argument is easy if a person is skilled in verbal sparring. Losing an argument is hard when outright defeat is admitted.
I went back and reviewed a thread called “All you AI preachers out there”, it wasn’t pretty. An authoritative man in this community appeared to leave the community after being on the recieving end of criticism. That man seemed to be crushed by his own ego…I didn’t get to chat with him on this forum but it seems like he put a lot of heart into what he had to say and had a lot to offer even if his ideas were somewhat questionable.
He still had a lot to offer this community if he was willing to concede and learn but challenging others takes balls and admitting your outnumbered takes bigger ball. Sticking around after feeling a loss takes the biggest balls of all. Of course I’m saying all this as a guy with peanuts for testicles right now 
Yes I agree that it’s all based on the presentation. When you go to a doctors office and feel they aren’t up to date there is a way to go about it.
Go buy the trt bible or download it and print it out. Tell the doc this book was co authored by hormone specialists some being endos and etc.
I can see how doctors get annoyed by patients thinking they know everything. If the issue is related to a mainstream issue like diabetes and etc. not with trt. Most endos do not seem to be having up to date knowledge. They cause more harm then good.
I’m confident the majority if endos today already know they don’t know shit about trt. They have not researched it further and stayed on top of information. In the back of there mind they know this. Yet they still get frustrated with the patient who did research? If they had stayed updated, they would of run across the knowledge were having.
My good friend is a physician and he told me they do not teach much about hormones. It’s coveded briefly. An endo who starts there career is in residency learning about every other disease and sick care you can imagine. Not trt. Unless there lucky. It’s just not mainstream.
Trt is not sick care for docs and that’s why they don’t spend time on it.
Patients must be armed with evidence and care for themselves when it comes to trt.
Do to those studies associating TRT with prostate cancer 60 years ago and the fact they still teach it in medical school, most doctor refuse to even take the first step and would rather not be associated with or have any of their patients on it.
Valid point, all 3 of you. Docs definitely don’t like being told what do. It’s hard to persuade most doctors anyway other than their way. They are in the business of not being wrong. When they feel the least bit anxious about a patient presenting information, most of them quickly exit into what feels comfortable…in this case the idea that TRT is harmful because (insert X problem here). There is an argument against most medical practices. My NP got overwhelmed by me asking for a SHBG and E2 blood Panel. She was out of her depths and could sense I was aware of it. That was the event horizon of my treatment with her ending.
Yup and I think in this case the docs jsut frustrated because he’s totally out of his depth and trying his best. He’s probably just thinking “when’s he gonna find a doc who specializes in this”.
Thanks for the response here. I definitely could have probably gone about the last appointment a little bit better I was just so frustrated I let that dictate my response. Thanks for the feedback on all this information.
I’m interested to see Entourage Medical ordered my blood work and I got it tested today so it’s the FIRST time any doctor included LH & FSH so i’ll finally find out if it’s primary or secondary in 5-7 days. Which would realistically be important for my PCP if it requires additional testing they may not perform as a telemedicine clinic, so i’ll work on my delivery if it comes to that.
Just wanted to update on the Entourage front. Decided to go with them initially since it’s a little cheaper, and I already paid them for labs & the first month. Right out the gate the doctor was responsive. I explained why labcorp isn’t an option living in Hawaii, so they sent me a lab request which was accepted by the labs here no problem within 24 hours. I have my initial appointment in two weeks with the doctor so i’ll see how that goes. Depending on how things shake out with entourage i’ll either stick with them if i’m happy with the service and system or i’ll check out defy since they’re tried and true. Thanks again for everyones advice you’ve been great.
Great news brother. Awesome!
I have been with Entourage since December. They are alright but they only care about that monthly payment.
Defy doesn’t have that monthly payments, it’s pay as you go. So every 6 months when labs are required, you pay for labs, consults and any medicine.
Heard. More money better treatment, more options, more availability. I’ve heard of guys flying into other states for treatment, some fly into South America. Why South America? Curious myself, but one service out of South America touted itself as service for the “Rich and Famous”, while another service said flying into South American countries was a way for people to save money.
Why all these services exist? No doubt there is a market. One thing’s sure, there’s no shortage of companies in this industry for the money, the service I use is no different.