Hey, Fletch. Do you remember the title of the book we were supposed to start our book club with?
I just remembered that.
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
Hey, Fletch. Do you remember the title of the book we were supposed to start our book club with?
I just remembered that.[/quote]
I’ll have to look back into atheism-o-phobia 2. So no, but it’s in there somewhere. Do you remember if that was more towards the middle or the end?
yeah… i’m too lazy to go back through that
[quote]pookie wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think once you are married, and on top of that have two young children there should be a strong commitment to the family that you created. That commitment should take precedent over your desire to have sex with another woman or man. I am against divorce except for very specific reasons. One reason the divorce rate is as high as it is because everyone feels their needs are more important than anyone else’s. “Boo hoo poor me I must be happy.” Human beings are indeed selfish at heart.
And does the world help when a couple is hurting? No, a secular marriage councilor many times will not provide the sort of advice that keeps couples together.[/quote]
And what sort of advice would?
Yes, it should be a lot of fun. Not for you, though.
Let’s look at some of the most atheistic societies in the world today… let’s see. Northern European/Scandinavian countries are extremely secular, and have populations where a large proportion (varying from 40% to 80% depending on how the polls are worded) of people consider themselves agnostics/atheists. Many are still members of a church, but mostly out of tradition, and attendance is very low.
Now, let’s look at divorce rates in those countries… hmmm. Among the lowest in the world. How about abortions? Low too. Much lower than in god-lovin’ god-fearin US of A. Crime rate? Lower. Teen pregnancies? Lower. Portion of population in prison? Much lower. Discrepancy between rich and poor? Way less than the US. Social programs? Generous and freely accessible to all. Universal health care. Six weeks or more paid vacations (so that you can actually spend time with your family instead of looking at their picture on your office desk). A paid sabbatical year once in your career. Institutionalized discrimination against gays? None. Education levels? High.
In fact, on almost every measurable aspect that you can apply to measure quality of life, highly secular nations outperform highly religious nations. Ok, tax rates are sky-high, but Christians, it is well known, love to share wealth with the needy, so that is not even a problem.
Having fun yet?
[/quote]
I was referring to the US and it’s current culture. I don’t believe there can be a fair comparison made with Scandinavia, or any place else. Now if you said 60 years ago in the US when less people attended church and less people called themselves Christians the divorce rate was lower, abortion rates lower, crime rates lower bla bla bla, that would be impressive. But of course we all know that 60 years ago more people called themselves Christian and church attendance was up. And…divorce rates were lower, crime rates were lower, abortion rates were practically non existent as it was illegal. Yeah you should have made that comparison as we do have a unique Christian heritage and culture.
Anyway, just for the heck of it I did a little checking on Scandinavian divorce rates and it appears that they now do quite a lot of “cohabitating” without bothering to get married. But here’s the clincher, you won’t like this at all. Even with more people cohabitating the divorce rates in Scandinavian countries are still on the rise!
Yeah I’m having fun how about you?
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
yeah… i’m too lazy to go back through that
[/quote]
Do you have any books or mind or can you think of any… To be honest, I’m pretty illiterate concerning readings to do with atheism, faith, and spirituality.
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
My point was to call out Zeb’s hypocrisy in complaining about insults against Christians, while dishing out some of the most hateful, personal vitriol I’ve seen in 5 years on these boards. Most of the Christians I talk with seem like pretty cool people, and don’t lower themselves to that level.
I’ll say this one last time, for the record.
My wife and I made a mutual decision to divorce. She felt as strongly that it was the right decision as I did. We spent a full year talking, doing research on mixed orientation marriages, and attending counseling before making our decision. I never once cheated on her. I’ve stayed very close to my kids, and am still on good terms with my ex-wife. This week, she, I, and my partner sat together at the holiday concerts for both of my kids. We continue to feel that we made the right decision. [/quote]
Good for you.
I had a close friend in NYC who went through the same thing. His two daughters are some of the most well-adjusted, young adults I’ve ever met. [/quote]
Thanks man, that’s good to hear.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
yeah… i’m too lazy to go back through that
[/quote]
Do you have any books or mind or can you think of any… To be honest, I’m pretty illiterate concerning readings to do with atheism, faith, and spirituality.[/quote]
Okay. i just found it: A Refutation of Moral Relativism by Peter Kreeft. I’m gonna’ try to pick up a copy next week… won’t have time this weekend.
The best bookstore in town is a Hastings and I quit that job with no intention of going back there lol. Guess I’ll order online from Amazon. I’ll be looking for a new thread from you on PWI.
well, crap… I never should have brought it up 
I just got a copy of Entanglement at my library, a book on quantum mechanics that I’ve been hoping to read. Oh, well. My training and school schedules should be pretty light for the next few months.
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
yeah… i’m too lazy to go back through that
[/quote]
Do you have any books or mind or can you think of any… To be honest, I’m pretty illiterate concerning readings to do with atheism, faith, and spirituality.[/quote]
Okay. i just found it: A Refutation of Moral Relativism by Peter Kreeft. I’m gonna’ try to pick up a copy next week… won’t have time this weekend. [/quote]
Sounds interesting, let us know what you think. If it’s good, I may check it out.
[quote]pookie wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I have no problem with honest disagreement. It’s the name calling, things like referring to my faith as a “fairy tale” calling God a “sky wizard”. This is not just immature, but incredibly insensitive to those of us who believe in God. I brought this up to Cap in one of our arguments and Cap was mature enough to agree. Since that time I have not seen him post anything of the kind. And my respect for him has risen because of that. And we’ve all been insensitive regarding another;s belief’s. Disagreement is fine. How we disagree with each other is usually the problem, and it’s not just this thread. [/quote]
You believe in dumb things. Why should people who realize how dumb your beliefs are show any respect? Would you respect a pedophile who explains to you his belief in sex with children? How about a neo-nazi who preaches racial purity? I can use a bunch of bible verses to justify slavery and child abuse… You believe things that were invented by primitive men and that are used by modern ignorant bigots to justify their hate of women, gays, foreigners, education, etc.
If you want your religion to be respected, pick one that promotes ideas worthy of respect.[/quote]
“Faith is the voluntary suspension of disbelief. This deserves no more respect than someone deciding to hit themselves with a hammer.”
But you do hit the nail on the head, Pookie. Christians believe a man walked on water, magical talking snakes and magical knowledge-giving fruit, eternal life granting fruit, rods being turn into snakes, men parting seas by lifting a staff, people with unhuman strength who lose that strength when they cut off their hair, four faced animals that have the face of an ox a man and two other things, etc, etc. And the MORE ridiculous the claim, the more it affirms their faith instead of challenging it.
The point I agreed with Zeb on is that its never the right thing to do to be intentionally offensive. I can get the point of “You believe in things that are impossible” across by saying that instead of “Well sky wizard can just use his sky magic through his selfson magician boy.”
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
My point was to call out Zeb’s hypocrisy in complaining about insults against Christians, while dishing out some of the most hateful, personal vitriol I’ve seen in 5 years on these boards. Most of the Christians I talk with seem like pretty cool people, and don’t lower themselves to that level.
I’ll say this one last time, for the record.
My wife and I made a mutual decision to divorce. She felt as strongly that it was the right decision as I did. We spent a full year talking, doing research on mixed orientation marriages, and attending counseling before making our decision. I never once cheated on her. I’ve stayed very close to my kids, and am still on good terms with my ex-wife. This week, she, I, and my partner sat together at the holiday concerts for both of my kids. We continue to feel that we made the right decision. [/quote]
Good for you.
I had a close friend in NYC who went through the same thing. His two daughters are some of the most well-adjusted, young adults I’ve ever met. [/quote]
People like Zeb who have a problem with what Forlife did have no concern for him, his wife, his kids, or society at large. Zeb is concerned with Zeb.
See, Zeb gets a lot of benefits from being a part of a dominant culture. The dominant culture in America is one of straight monogamous christians (among other things). Zeb likes the idea that “Everyone should be straight christians forming binary heterosexual unions and procreating”, because it fits his worldview and he gets lots of tangible and intangible benefits from being a part of that dominant culture.
Situations like Forlifes threaten his culture, because members of that culture need to spread and keep thriving the idea that acting outside the norm of that culture is “bad”. Gays are bad. Polyamory is bad. Divorce is bad. If you do any of these things society will fall apart and everybody will slaughter each other and wont someone please think of the children, you selfish assholes?
So Forlife should pretend to be straight, stay unhappily in a marriage, and create a stressful unhealthy environment for himself, his wife, and his kids – so Zeb can feel good that Forlife is doing the “right” thing.
Conversely, if Forlife leaves his marriage, admits his sexuality and practices it, and he, his now ex-wife, and kids are happier and better off for it, suddenly the dominant culture story (where doing those things brings about the end of the world) is disproved. Rather than turn to lives of drugs and crime and prostitution because they didn’t have a “proper upbringing”, the kids grow up learning to accept people of different orientations and situations, that not all divorce is failure, and that your life doesnt have to follow a prescribed path for you to be happy or a good person.
Forlifes decision proving to be the best thing he could have done represents a very personal threat to Zeb.
[quote]pookie wrote:
<<< Having fun yet?
[/quote]I am. Please go on making my point by comparing the moral cesspool of the present “religious” United States with highly secular nations. We are a decaying corpse of our former selves. We took the exact wrong paths in addressing the grievous shortcomings that remained in our national fabric and laid ourselves wide open to exactly the critiques you offer. It wasn’t always so. We were catapulted in absolutely meteoric fashion to the preeminent superpower of the world and are plunging even more rapidly into pathetic irrelevance as more and more of this countries conscience reweaves itself in your godless image. We are falling. The countries you mention never were an example to anybody. I have no illusions about how you’ll respond to this, but go ahead.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pookie wrote:
<<< Having fun yet?
[/quote]I am. Please go on making my point by comparing the moral cesspool of the present “religious” United States with highly secular nations. We are a decaying corpse of our former selves. We took the exact wrong paths in addressing the grievous shortcomings that remained in our national fabric and laid ourselves wide open to exactly the critiques you offer. It wasn’t always so. We were catapulted in absolutely meteoric fashion to the preeminent superpower of the world and are plunging even more rapidly into pathetic irrelevance as more and more of this countries conscience reweaves itself in your godless image. We are falling. The countries you mention never were an example to anybody. I have no illusions about how you’ll respond to this, but go ahead.
[/quote]
Maybe we’re “falling” because its impossible for a country to sustain a state of such “superpower” status in relation to all the other counties in the world?
Perhaps we became such a “superpower” based on the labor of millions of slaves and the violent and unethical acquisition of land from Native Americans?
Or are you going to suggest the US became a superpower because so many people where Christians, and Americans moving away from religious fanaticism is the root of American’s “decline”?
Because if so, your viewpoint isn’t really worth of serious consideration. It’s a false connection.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
My point was to call out Zeb’s hypocrisy in complaining about insults against Christians, while dishing out some of the most hateful, personal vitriol I’ve seen in 5 years on these boards. Most of the Christians I talk with seem like pretty cool people, and don’t lower themselves to that level.
I’ll say this one last time, for the record.
My wife and I made a mutual decision to divorce. She felt as strongly that it was the right decision as I did. We spent a full year talking, doing research on mixed orientation marriages, and attending counseling before making our decision. I never once cheated on her. I’ve stayed very close to my kids, and am still on good terms with my ex-wife. This week, she, I, and my partner sat together at the holiday concerts for both of my kids. We continue to feel that we made the right decision. [/quote]
Good for you.
I had a close friend in NYC who went through the same thing. His two daughters are some of the most well-adjusted, young adults I’ve ever met. [/quote]
People like Zeb who have a problem with what Forlife did have no concern for him, his wife, his kids, or society at large. Zeb is concerned with Zeb.
See, Zeb gets a lot of benefits from being a part of a dominant culture. The dominant culture in America is one of straight monogamous christians (among other things). Zeb likes the idea that “Everyone should be straight christians forming binary heterosexual unions and procreating”, because it fits his worldview and he gets lots of tangible and intangible benefits from being a part of that dominant culture.
Situations like Forlifes threaten his culture, because members of that culture need to spread and keep thriving the idea that acting outside the norm of that culture is “bad”. Gays are bad. Polyamory is bad. Divorce is bad. If you do any of these things society will fall apart and everybody will slaughter each other and wont someone please think of the children, you selfish assholes?
So Forlife should pretend to be straight, stay unhappily in a marriage, and create a stressful unhealthy environment for himself, his wife, and his kids – so Zeb can feel good that Forlife is doing the “right” thing.
Conversely, if Forlife leaves his marriage, admits his sexuality and practices it, and he, his now ex-wife, and kids are happier and better off for it, suddenly the dominant culture story (where doing those things brings about the end of the world) is disproved. Rather than turn to lives of drugs and crime and prostitution because they didn’t have a “proper upbringing”, the kids grow up learning to accept people of different orientations and situations, that not all divorce is failure, and that your life doesnt have to follow a prescribed path for you to be happy or a good person.
Forlifes decision proving to be the best thing he could have done represents a very personal threat to Zeb. [/quote]
What would you do if I ever left T Nation Cap? You’d have darn little material, you just mentioned me in two posts in a row. Thank you very much, I’m flattered…really.
Seriously, you may not believe this but the primary problem with forlife leaving his wife and kids has less to do with divorce being wrong (and it is and we are better without it usually) and more to do with forlife’s incredibly poor decision making ability.
He get’s married, presumably in his 20’s, father’s two children (gay men can enjoy sex with women-isn’t that something?) and then suddenly wakes up one day decides he’s a homosexual and off he goes to live the gay lifestyle. From a societal stand-point that is not much different than a man who knows he’s a philanderer, gets married anyway and then a few years later leaves his family because he just decided that he wants to chase women. The intelligent decision making process is missing.
As to divorce, in most cases it helps no one and tears our society apart. Children growing up without two parents, more mothers on welfare. It’s clearly painful and helps no one, not even the Godless.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
What would you do if I ever left T Nation Cap? You’d have darn little material, you just mentioned me in two posts in a row. Thank you very much, I’m flattered…really.
[/quote]
Aw. <3
The intelligent decision making progress is impeded by the constant pressure to make one set of decisions over another. Forlife grew up in America (near as I can tell) where he was told, mostly implicitly, that he “should” have sex with women, he “should” get married, he “should” have kids. So he attempted to live out the life story his culture told him is the “right” one.
“He wakes up one morning and decides he is a homosexual” – seriously, do you really think that was his experience? I ask that only 20% contemptuously and 80% seriously.
You’re just proving my point. “It tears our society apart! Mothers will end up on welfare!”
Except that its exactly the opposite of reality in Forlifes situation. But you keep beating the “you must do as we say or the world will collapse” drum.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Or are you going to suggest the US became a superpower because so many people where Christians, and Americans moving away from religious fanaticism is the root of American’s “decline”? >>>[/quote]That’s exactly why and your not getting that is simply to be expected. The founders did get that and the national conscience was riddled through with Christian principles. God does honor with common grace a land that honors His name in the world. Even Stalin understood this stating that we would never be defeated while our spirituality, which was in the vast preponderance Christian, remained. That’s OK, I love my country and I mourn her almost certain demise, but my God transcends and is King over all nations. His kingdom, which is not of this world, remains forever.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Or are you going to suggest the US became a superpower because so many people where Christians, and Americans moving away from religious fanaticism is the root of American’s “decline”? >>>[/quote]That’s exactly why and your not getting that is simply to be expected. The founders did get that and the national conscience was riddled through with Christian principles. God does honor with common grace a land that honors His name in the world. Even Stalin understood this stating that we would never be defeated while our spirituality, which was in the vast preponderance Christian, remained. That’s OK, I love my country and I mourn her almost certain demise, but my God transcends and is King over all nations. His kingdom, which is not of this world, remains forever.
[/quote]
And making all those dark skinned folk work their whole lives for no money had nothing to do with the success of the United States? Where exactly does the issue of human slave ownership fit into your nonsense fantasy of US history? Weren’t all those slave owning Christians commiting a grevious sin against other human beings? Why then would your just and loving God not only allow slavery, but allow HIS followers to own slaves, and BLESS their country for it?
Lobotomized religious fanatic indeed.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< And making all those dark skinned folk work their whole lives for no money had nothing to do with the success of the United States? Where exactly does the issue of human slave ownership fit into your nonsense fantasy of US history? Weren’t all those slave owning Christians commiting a grevious sin against other human beings? Why then would your just and loving God not only allow slavery, but allow HIS followers to own slaves, and BLESS their country for it?
Lobotomized religious fanatic indeed.[/quote]Here we go again. Do a little research pal. The conscience of this nation as a whole was expunging slavery from it’s midst right from day one. If the southern colonies hadn’t been absolutely needed to win the war, the DOI would have itself condemned slavery as it was in the initial drafts. Christians worked like dogs to help free slaves right up through and beyond the civil war. I’m not doin this with you. Nobody has been tougher on this than I have and even my detractors here will, if honest be forced to recognize that. We were growing in the generally right direction on this front until LBJ instituted slavery 2.0.
The founders were clear, even the pagans. They were depending on Christian morality to give teeth to their concept of very limited government. They would not recognize this communist whorehouse that still flies their flag.
Slavery 2.0?