[quote]forlife wrote:
Just making a point. You can rationalize faith however you want, but it doesn’t make the object of your faith real. See Thomas Jefferson’s quote that I provided earlier.[/quote]
My faith doesn’t make the Son, Jesus Christ, real. I simply have faith that he is real. Much like I have faith that the evil of rape is real, and not subjective matter of human opinion or emotion.[/quote]
Do you care if Jesus is actually who you claim him to be? Does it matter if he was merely a teacher vs. the son of a supernatural being? You can have faith in literally anything, but without reliable, repeatable evidence your faith is misguided. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia, the identical faith process you currently trust in would have led you to believe in Allah instead.
And please try to define it in a way that doesn’t make “I believe this relationship will last” and “I believe aliens are watching everything I do and recording it for when they abduct me” the same thing.
Do you care if Jesus is actually who you claim him to be? Does it matter if he was merely a teacher vs. the son of a supernatural being?[/quote]
Yes.
Believe what you will. If I’m misguided, I’d never know. If I’m not, I’ll know that. Besides, to you, I can’t be misguided. Maybe I’m exactly what I have to be, no? Maybe this is the way my dominos fall. Perhaps I’m a creature of faith on onehand, with an apprection for scientific knowledge on the other, while you’re limited to one outlook. I mean, here you are, the product of non-choice, non-free will, struggling to convert another creature of non-choice, non-free will.
[quote]forlife wrote:
the identical faith process you currently trust in would have led you to believe in Allah instead.[/quote]You never fail me either. You are a walking talking testimony of the unshakable unalterable truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Reading you guys is almost like reading the Bible itself. Exactly what you’re supposed to do.
[quote]forlife wrote:
the identical faith process you currently trust in would have led you to believe in Allah instead.[/quote]You never fail me either. You are a walking talking testimony of the unshakable unalterable truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Reading you guys is almost like reading the Bible itself. Exactly what you’re supposed to do.
[/quote]
Gasp. A christian says you’re supposed to read the christian bible.
Tirib, you’re a walking testimony of the “heads I win, tails you lose” game.
If someone else agrees that christianity is right? Proof, to you, that its right!
If someone else disagrees that christianity is right? Proof, to you, that its right!
If you pray and get what you want? Proof that prayer works and god exists!
If you pray and dont get what you want? Proof that god exists but what you wanted wasnt his plan!
If historical or scientific evidence matches what the bible says? Proof the bible is right!
If historical or scientific evidence refustes what the bible says? Proof science is wrong and the bible is right!
I could go on, but I really hope you’re starting to see the point. No matter what the outcome or evidence, either way a situation goes, you simply force the result to support your desired conclusion.
Sloth, how would you know whether or not you’re misguided? Faith isn’t knowledge, so where is your evidence?
My point on Saudi Arabia was that muslims use the identical faith process you use to justify their own beliefs. Without evidence, you have no basis for claiming your beliefs are any more accurate than theirs. Do you disagree, and if so, why?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth, how would you know whether or not you’re misguided? Faith isn’t knowledge, so where is your evidence?
My point on Saudi Arabia was that muslim use the identical faith process you use to justify their own beliefs. Without evidence, you have no basis for claiming hour beliefs are any more accurate than theirs. Do you disagree, and if so, why? [/quote]
This actually brings up an interesting topic.
Have any studies been done on religious conversions? How many people have converted, what religion they’ve converted to/from, when, how many times, for what reasons, geographic location, etc?
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Tirib, you’re a walking testimony of the “heads I win, tails you lose” game.
If someone else agrees that christianity is right? Proof, to you, that its right!
If someone else disagrees that christianity is right? Proof, to you, that its right!
If you pray and get what you want? Proof that prayer works and god exists!
If you pray and dont get what you want? Proof that god exists but what you wanted wasnt his plan!
If historical or scientific evidence matches what the bible says? Proof the bible is right!
If historical or scientific evidence refustes what the bible says? Proof science is wrong and the bible is right!
I could go on, but I really hope you’re starting to see the point. No matter what the outcome or evidence, either way a situation goes, you simply force the result to support your desired conclusion.[/quote]
Exactly. Science calls this the rubber sheet fallacy, because it can be stretched to fit any claim, and thus tells you nothing about what is actually true.
Why do people think they can just randomly believe in something, and it will magically come true? It’s the Santa Claus system for making sense of the universe, and while it doesn’t represent reality, it makes you feel good.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth, how would you know whether or not you’re misguided? Faith isn’t knowledge, so where is your evidence?[/quote]
I have FAITH that I’m not misguided. I don’t beat around the bush about it. Nor, am I ashamed of it. I, and have, flat out stated that I practice a faith.
My faith is based on private revelation, consideration of theology and how those answers satisfied my questions, how morality and theology interface with living in a world of limits…and faith. I make a foundation, unapologetically, out of that faith. Again, it is the same sort of foundation that strengthens me to proclaim the evil of robbery and infidelity without mealy-mouthed caveats such as “in my opinion…” Or, “well, I feel like…” Hardly the most scientific way to produce “morality,” anyways. And, hey, who cares what a pattern of dominos ‘feels?’ That’s just how the dominos have to fall in that particular pattern.
Faith builds society and community. Mealy-mouthed language with no faith in it builds dysfunctional homes, anchorless morality, and pleasure addicted non-communities.
But hey, maybe that’s just how my dominos fall. As they must. In which case, I am as I’m supposed to be, and wouldn’t know otherwise upon my death.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth, how would you know whether or not you’re misguided? Faith isn’t knowledge, so where is your evidence?
My point on Saudi Arabia was that muslim use the identical faith process you use to justify their own beliefs. Without evidence, you have no basis for claiming hour beliefs are any more accurate than theirs. Do you disagree, and if so, why? [/quote]
This actually brings up an interesting topic.
Have any studies been done on religious conversions? How many people have converted, what religion they’ve converted to/from, when, how many times, for what reasons, geographic location, etc?[/quote]
Not sure, but there is a classic early 20th century book by William James called “Varieties of Religious Experience” that discusses the deeply personal experiences people from all religions have, and how they use these experiences to justify their particular beliefs.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth, how would you know whether or not you’re misguided? Faith isn’t knowledge, so where is your evidence?[/quote]
I have FAITH that I’m not misguided. I don’t beat around the bush about it. Nor, am I ashamed of it. I, and have, flat out stated that I practice a faith.
My faith is based on private revelation, consideration of theology and how those answers satisfied my questions, how morality and theology interface with living in a world of limits…and faith. I make a foundation, unapologetically, out of that faith. Again, it is the same sort of foundation that strengthens me to proclaim the evil of robbery and infidelity without mealy-mouthed caveats such as “in my opinion…” Or, “well, I feel like…” Hardly the most scientific way to produce “morality,” anyways. And, hey, who cares what a pattern of dominos ‘feels?’ That’s just how the dominos have to fall in that particular pattern.
Faith builds society and community. Mealy-mouthed language with no faith in it builds dysfunctional homes, anchorless morality, and pleasure addicted non-communities.
But hey, maybe that’s just how my dominos fall. As they must. In which case, I am as I’m supposed to be, and wouldn’t know otherwise upon my death. [/quote]
If your faith is based on private revelation, how do you explain the millions of equally sincere people whose private revelation produces beliefs that directly contradict your own? Clearly, private revelation can’t be relied upon to tell you what is actually true, since if that were the case everyone would get the same answer.
Given that you have no actual evidence for your beliefs, why would you still choose to have faith that they are real?
[quote]forlife wrote:
If your faith is based on private revelation, how do you explain the millions of equally sincere people whose private revelation produces beliefs that directly contradict your own?Given that you have no actual evidence for your beliefs, why would you still choose to have faith that they are real?[/quote]
I’m not a witness to their revelation, nor their sincerity. I can only speak to my own. Just as the conman has his own personal feelings about the morality of his exploits, I stand on faith and can, sincerely, announce the evil of his actions without caveat.
[quote]forlife wrote:
If your faith is based on private revelation, how do you explain the millions of equally sincere people whose private revelation produces beliefs that directly contradict your own?Given that you have no actual evidence for your beliefs, why would you still choose to have faith that they are real?[/quote]
I’m not a witness to their revelation, nor their sincerity. I can only speak to my own. Just as the conman has his own personal feelings about the morality of his exploits, I stand on faith and can, sincerely, announce the evil of his actions without caveat.[/quote]
Do you agree that people can have deeply personal spiritual experiences which contradict the experiences of others?
If so, why are you willing to trust these experiences, knowing that they lead to contradictory conclusions?
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Ya’ll looked at the one bad example while ignoring the rest of post… I’m disappointed now :([/quote]
Ok. Define “faith”. [/quote]
faith- belief in that which cannot be proved or belief in that for which there is little to no evidence supporting it.[/quote]
Good definition.
Given that, please explain why someone would believe in something for which there is no evidence? How can you convince yourself that you’re praying to a real person when you know there’s no evidence that this hypothetical person is real? How is that any different from believing in Santa Claus?
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Ya’ll looked at the one bad example while ignoring the rest of post… I’m disappointed now :([/quote]
Ok. Define “faith”. [/quote]
faith- belief in that which cannot be proved or belief in that for which there is little to no evidence supporting it.[/quote]
Then… PUHHHHHllllleeeeeaaaassssseeee don’t ever use faith to describe the reasonable suspicion that our planet will continue into tomorrow its orbit of the sun.
[quote]forlife wrote:
If your faith is based on private revelation, how do you explain the millions of equally sincere people whose private revelation produces beliefs that directly contradict your own?Given that you have no actual evidence for your beliefs, why would you still choose to have faith that they are real?[/quote]
I’m not a witness to their revelation, nor their sincerity. I can only speak to my own. Just as the conman has his own personal feelings about the morality of his exploits, I stand on faith and can, sincerely, announce the evil of his actions without caveat.[/quote]
Do you agree that people can have deeply personal spiritual experiences which contradict the experiences of others?
If so, why are you willing to trust these experiences, knowing that they lead to contradictory conclusions? [/quote]
No, I don’t agree. The only one I can experience is mine, which leads to one conclusion.
