Are you all that different from Ephrem? The only difference between you and him is that he hates one less religion than you do.
Hey!
[quote]forlife wrote:
Are you all that different from Ephrem? The only difference between you and him is that he hates one less religion than you do.[/quote]
You mean, hates one more religion?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Hey![/quote]
Hush. The subject can’t speak while his evaluation is underway.
Now, to answer forlife. In general, I don’t hate other religions. In fact, I can even respect their search. If anything I’m indifferent to them, most of the time. Unlike the atheist in doubt, I don’t bat an eye at what the Hindu, Buddhist, Jew, Jehovah Witness, or the Animist believes about my faith, or the destination of the soul upon death. I’m not into the whiny “No, I want more than peaceful toleration, you must recognize me as interchangeable with yourself and your faith. We must see each other like ice cream flavors at the local Baskin Robbins! You get strawberry, and I’ll get vanilla. Or I’ll get vanilla and you get strawberry, it doesn’t matter! Weeee!”
[quote]florelius wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
As predicted, you’re now claiming that you really do have evidence for your god. This happens every time you corner someone on their claim that faith is all you need, and I take it as an admission that faith really isn’t sufficient for your belief in a god. When forced to confront the facts, believers intuitively recognize that randomly choosing to believe in something makes zero sense, unless there is reliable evidence to back up that belief.[/quote]
What you should be saying is “Zeb how can you believe without proof?” The scripture talks of a man who said “tell me of Jesus so that I might believe in him too”. One must be introduced to the scripture, be confronted with the truth. There must be something there first before one believes. But you know all this I’m sure. You’re just trying to twist things (that’s what Satan does too)I wonder why does this give you pleasure? You have fallen away and you must get other to do so? Satan also fell away and try’s to get others to do so. You’re not keeping very good company my friend.
[quote]So the question is this: where is the reliable evidence for your beliefs?
Obviously, the bible is insufficient evidence and religious experiences are insufficient evidence, because they lead people to contradictory conclusions. Logically, you can’t all be right because your beliefs directly contradict one another.
So where is the reliable, repeatable evidence for YOUR beliefs?[/quote]
Bible Prophecy: As you may or may not know the Bible is in fact a conglomeration of 66 books. With a very large gap of about 400 years between the last book in the OT Malachi and the first book in the NT, Matthew. There were over 300 predictions of “the Christ” in the OT. There were also many other predictions by the prophets in the OT which also came true. To my knowledge no other sacred writing has such perfectly accurate predictions of the future.
Dead Sea Scrolls: The Dead Sea scrolls discovered in 1947 is evidence that the Bible was translated accurately. We do hear a lot of people screaming about its accuracy and this to my mind puts that issue to rest. These manuscripts were 1000 years older than the oldest copy of the Bible.
Archaeological Digs: I have read of numerous digs often by non Christians which turn up further evidence that the various stories of the Bible are in fact true. Things like the Wall of Jericho, King David, The Wall of Jerusalem, Sodom & Gomorrah, The Giants of Nephilim (this one is very cool the skeletons of those dudes were like 14 feet long). There have been hundreds of digs which verify the Bible as being truthful.
The reliability of the New Testament: There has been extensive research performed by both believers and non believers on the validity of the NT. It was determined that the NT is even more accurate than any of the ancient writings of Plato, Socrates and others.
Finally, I have studied a wide array of other religions and philosophies, none of which have measured up to the Christian Bible and the rich history and sound factual information that it presents. I have web sites to back up everything that I’ve written above. But I have a feeling that nor anything else that I post will make a difference to you. You have an agenda and that means you have a closed mind.
One way or the other someday you will know that there is a God and his son Jesus Christ died on the cross for true believers.
[/quote]
do you have a link to that giant fossile? If thats real, it would be cool to see it.[/quote]
I believe they have found structures but, I am pretty sure all those giant skeletons they have found have been shown to be photoshopped/fake. It would be awesome if they were real though.
what’s funny about the giant human skeletons is that the exact same photos has been used to “prove” different antique stories
when they come from Israel they prove the Nephilim of the OT
when they have been found in Saudi Arabia, they prove the A’ads of the Quran
sometimes the same bones come from India, and prove some story in the Mahabharata
these fossils are not giant, they are ubiquitous.
quite impressive indeed.
I believe they’re called dinosaurs?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Archaeological Digs: I have read of numerous digs often by non Christians which turn up further evidence that the various stories of the Bible are in fact true. Things like the Wall of Jericho, King David, The Wall of Jerusalem, Sodom & Gomorrah, The Giants of Nephilim (this one is very cool the skeletons of those dudes were like 14 feet long). There have been hundreds of digs which verify the Bible as being truthful.
[/quote]
The Bible is a collection of different books. There are historical accounts (like Kings), law (Leviticus if I recall correctly), prophecies, etc. If there is archeological evidence to support some of the stories in the Bible, how does that prove it is correct? I believe that Jesus was a real person, and I think the gospels are based on real events, but there is no evidence that the supernatural claims are true.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Are you all that different from Ephrem? The only difference between you and him is that he hates one less religion than you do.[/quote]
Only if you assume that no one is right. I’m betting with my eternal soul that I’m right. And you are betting with your eternal soul that I’m wrong. The good part is that someday we both get to find out who was right.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Zeb, you still haven’t answered my question.[/quote]
I did answer the question that you asked about evidence. But don’t thank me it was fun.
[quote]There are millions of Christians that believe in the same bible you believe in. Those millions of Christians have had religious experiences as profound as your own.
However…
Those millions of Christians have beliefs that DIRECTLY CONTRADICT your own beliefs.
How do you reconcile that?[/quote]
Please be specific as to what has contradicted my own experiences.
If you tell me what experiences that you’re talking about then I could respond.
And apparently you’re satisfied with the evidence that I’ve posted that has at least partially led me to Christianity. Otherwise, I’m sure you would have mentioned something about it. But I hear crickets chirping.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Hey ephrem you and Mak have probably done more for Christianity on this board than any of the rest of could do. I know this will continue as long as you see yourselves as poster boys for atheism.
God uses us all in different ways.
:)[/quote]
Thanks ZEB, if even one person realised that religious hatred is wrong due to what i, or another non-believer, said over the years; it’ll make me happy.
[/quote]
But you don’t say it’s wrong. You hate religion. Indeed, if anything’s clear from your posts, it’s that you hate religion. Your little twist is that you want everyone to hate all religions. [/quote]
Hate is a too strong a word. A “healthy dislike” describes my sentiments much better.
[/quote]
Well, you’re smart guy, and so is forlife and as the Bible says in
[b]Matthew 18:2-4 "
“He called a little child to him and places the child among them. And he said: 'Truly I tell you unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.”[/b]
This scripture is very difficult to accept. Letting go of what you think is correct and following God is not easy. But as I said God uses us all in different ways for his ultimate purpose. I assume that you are a young man. If so you have a long way to go and may change your mind.
God only knows.
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Archaeological Digs: I have read of numerous digs often by non Christians which turn up further evidence that the various stories of the Bible are in fact true. Things like the Wall of Jericho, King David, The Wall of Jerusalem, Sodom & Gomorrah, The Giants of Nephilim (this one is very cool the skeletons of those dudes were like 14 feet long). There have been hundreds of digs which verify the Bible as being truthful.
[/quote]
The Bible is a collection of different books. There are historical accounts (like Kings), law (Leviticus if I recall correctly), prophecies, etc. If there is archeological evidence to support some of the stories in the Bible, how does that prove it is correct? I believe that Jesus was a real person, and I think the gospels are based on real events, but there is no evidence that the supernatural claims are true.[/quote]
And, (as I’ve been saying for most of the thread) that’s where faith comes in. I merely gave some (just some) evidence, that I’ve studied to answer forlife’s question.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
On the subject of psychology and the assumption of self in regards to religion
As Tirubulus pointed out, religion [Christianity[ has nothing to gain from a deeper understanding of self. Psychology may be a “soft” science, but it does allow one to delve deeper into one’s motivations for acting like they do.
Religion offers an answer that gives the believer an excuse to not engage their mental problems, and substitute those problems with a blanket statement, “I’m a sinner”. It’s laziness, plain and simple.
ZEB’s enduring fascination with homosexuality reveals an underlying issue he’s able to skirt by simply pointing at the bible and say, “It’s a sin”, without ever looking deeper into his own psyche for the real reasons.
I believe this mechanism exists with many believers. I know it’s true for my crazy sister who found the J.W.'s, but still is batshit crazy. Religion offers a different path wherein mental issues are projected onto the fabric of that religion making them somewhat manageable, but without real understanding.
And it does not come as a surprise to me that therapy goes against the gospel. A faith can only exist without questioning that faith.
Seen in this light, i think that religion is an obstacle that blocks greater understanding of the human condition, which in turn hinders humanity’s progress on a whole. Let’s release humankind from the burden of religion so we can move forward as a species.
[/quote]
A good example of this is people who say that religion help them overcome an addiction. But if you pay attention, you realize that religion has become an all-consuming focus in their lives. They merely traded one addiction for another. I suppose you can argue that religious zealotry is better than drug use, and I would also agree with that to some extent. However, as ephrem mentioned, this doesn’t address the deeper issue of such a person’s addictive personality. This is kind of what AA does for alcoholics. It tells alcoholics to surrender to a higher power and then has them do a bunch of busy work to keep the focus away from the booze, but the success rate of AA is no better than the person who stops drinking cold turkey. And yes, in many cases a drug or alcohol user’s addiction is more of a psychological dependence rather than a physical one. I was talking to a group of cops at my gym who said that the dirty little secret behind the “don’t do drugs” message is that not everyone who tries drugs will develop a physical addiction. In many cases it’s a psychological dependence. But because no one knows if their physiology will cause them to develop a physical addiction to a particular substance until they try it, it’s safer to tell everyone to avoid drugs.
[/quote]
I’ve been gone for a few days… well, actually I’ve been back since late Friday night, but I had a TON of schoolwork to get done in a short time and a lot of hours at work.
So, I just got to this point in the thread, and I wanted to build on this point:
This guy:
has something like an 85% success rate (well… the doctor who developed the treatment specifically) in treating alcoholism. They use a medicinal intervention, and it is based on the work of a behavioral psychologist.
AA has something like a non-success rate. They can’t even quantify it, it’s so bad. They’ve been in the business of “curing” alcoholism for over 70 years, they’re methods have become the de-facto practice of almost all other treatment groups, yet they suck miserably. They are no more successful than just not treating alcoholism. And, coming as no surprise, AA is almost violently resistant to the treatment outlined in the book I linked to.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Bullshit wishful thinking Sloth. As scientific progress pushes on the case for god grows weaker, and weaker, and weaker.
[/quote]
Nope. The secular grow cold, gray, and barren. They abort and contracept their future. What future it does give birth to, increasingly is born into broken homes. Face it, godless/faithless ‘society’ is bunch of old men and women trying to teeter on an ever shorter supply of young shoulders. You spend off the social capital of your more devout forefathers, increasingly die alone without committed wife or children (relying on the state), and charge off your debt, private and public, to a vanishingly shrinking future generation. The demographic argument has in fact the most powerful pro-immigration argument. And guess who’s been taking up the invitation? Big, devout, religious, families. A double whammy! You’ve already lost. Now we get to watch it unfold. I don’t have any worry about the future of religious belief, it’s so very self-sustaining.[/quote]
Sloth,
I think that perhaps you should spend some time making sure that you know what you think you know. Atheists tend to be upper-middle class and above. I can’t speak to rates of reproduction specifically… but, every “free-thought,” “ethical society” or “atheist group” that I’ve ever been to had a surprisingly dense percentage of married parents with multiple children.
I think the population you are describing above is something different.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
<<< Stone unruly children, don’t forget that.[/quote]Good thing you weren’t born back then =]
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
Sloth,
I think that perhaps you should spend some time making sure that you know what you think you know…Atheists tend to be upper-middle class and above. I can’t speak to rates of reproduction specifically…[/quote]
Ok.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
<<< Stone unruly children, don’t forget that.[/quote]Good thing you weren’t born back then =]
[/quote]
Are you smiling at the thought of a another human being stoned to death? You are just as bloodthirsty as your space genie.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
<<< Stone unruly children, don’t forget that.[/quote]Good thing you weren’t born back then =]
[/quote]
Are you smiling at the thought of a another human being stoned to death? You are just as bloodthirsty as your space genie.[/quote]You really are a goof sometimes man LOL! Are you gonna sit there and tell me you actually took that comment seriously?
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
<<< Good post Tirib, all apparent contradictions and impossibilities are resolved in Christ. >>>[/quote]Absolutely true [quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:When I look at biological processes I can still see the beauty and purpose God has designed them with even though what we observe has been marred with sin. [/quote]Also true and pagans do too as declared in the 1st of Romans though they go out of their way to deny Him. [quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:The furthest one can go with logic is to know that a god exist and some of his inherent properties yet the only way to know God and his character is to have him reveal himself to one. >>>[/quote]That is exactly right. You really oughta read some Van Til. Not so he can straighten you out. I don’t mean it like that. I just think you would love the guy. [quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:I have posted this promise God has recorded in the bible that he reveals himself to those who search after him with all their heart. >>>[/quote]Of course I would say that nobody does that without grace being already at work in their hearts =] [quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:Although I disagree with ZEB about faith being blind >>>>>>[/quote]From the regenerate side of the spiritual grave, faith is anything other than blind as every fact there is including their very factuality is confirmation of the God who first loved us. However, from the standpoint of human logic, faith is by definition blind. I cannot “SEE” the incarnation for instance and only know it’s real because of faith, which is a gift. [quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:like or even how that faith is described in the bible. >>>[/quote]I’m not sure what you mean by this.[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:Faith in God is the most sure thing in the universe yet I disappoint myself in that I do not have enough of it.[/quote]It is indeed and I’m always asking for more as well.