[quote]Sloth wrote:
A father and mother bring children (wills) into the world. Obviously, those children will take action in the world. Therefore, father and mother define what actions are good and desireable. For example, they instruct that rape is an evil.[/quote]
Parents didn’t create the world itself.[/quote]
The world doesn’t make decisions, good or evil. It’s not a factor.[/quote]
What you don’t seem to understand here is that everything in existence, every relationship of the natural world, of the human world, the “unnatural” world etc. is all a product of God. EVERYTHING. Evil is one of those things He created.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
A father and mother bring children (wills) into the world. Obviously, those children will take action in the world. Therefore, father and mother define what actions are good and desireable. For example, they instruct that rape is an evil.[/quote]
Parents didn’t create the world itself.[/quote]
The world doesn’t make decisions, good or evil. It’s not a factor.[/quote]
What you don’t seem to understand here is that everything in existence, every relationship of the natural world, of the human world, the “unnatural” world etc. is all a product of God. EVERYTHING. Evil is one of those things He created.[/quote]
But you’re an atheist. So, you must blame child-bearing and scientific inquiry.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
A father and mother bring children (wills) into the world. Obviously, those children will take action in the world. Therefore, father and mother define what actions are good and desireable. For example, they instruct that rape is an evil.[/quote]
Parents didn’t create the world itself.[/quote]
The world doesn’t make decisions, good or evil. It’s not a factor.[/quote]
What you don’t seem to understand here is that everything in existence, every relationship of the natural world, of the human world, the “unnatural” world etc. is all a product of God. EVERYTHING. Evil is one of those things He created.[/quote]
But you’re an atheist. So, you must blame child-bearing and scientific inquiry.[/quote]
But nothing. Evil and atheism are Gods creations. Who are you to critique His creation?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
A father and mother bring children (wills) into the world. Obviously, those children will take action in the world. Therefore, father and mother define what actions are good and desireable. For example, they instruct that rape is an evil.[/quote]
Parents didn’t create the world itself.[/quote]
The world doesn’t make decisions, good or evil. It’s not a factor.[/quote]
What you don’t seem to understand here is that everything in existence, every relationship of the natural world, of the human world, the “unnatural” world etc. is all a product of God. EVERYTHING. Evil is one of those things He created.[/quote]
But you’re an atheist. So, you must blame child-bearing and scientific inquiry.[/quote]
But nothing. Evil and atheism are Gods creations. Who are you to critique His creation?[/quote]
Didn’t even touch on my point about necessarily having to oppose reproduction of the human species, and the defining of good (thus, the defining of evil). Also note, refused to oppose the further accumulation of scientific knowledge (which has and can be used for evil. Perhaps, eventually, the ultimate evil, human extinction).
Hmm, let’s all lobotomize and sterilize ourselves and let self-aware free will die out with this generation! New Atheists first! Show us your steel, brothers, and lead the way!
[quote]forlife wrote:
Morals aren’t myths. They exist only in the heads of the people that have them. They make no claims about the real world.
[/quote]
Oh, ok. Rape isn’t REALLY evil. Thanks, was wondering how that worked.[/quote]
The moral systems most people have in their heads define rape as evil. To us, rape is morally wrong.
Does that necessitate believing a supernatural scorekeeper will give all rapists their just due come judgment day?
Nope, which makes civil justice and accountabiliity all the more important. We don’t need myths in order to value love and respect for others. See Einstein’s quote earlier in the thread.
[quote]forlife wrote:
<<< you fully acknowledge that your beliefs aren’t supported by logic, intellect, or objective scientific facts. >>>[/quote] Not by fallen, sinful logic and intellect which are comprehensively impervious to OBJECTIVE facts of any kind, scientific or otherwise. I said in YOUR arena you are correct and Christians do err in confronting you there (generally speaking).
2+2=4 is a function of whatever school of snooty erudition the unbelieving participant at hand happens to subscribe to for the moment. To the mind of Christ living in the born again believer 2+2=4 is a finite reflection of the infinite, divine nature. They agree formally regarding the definition of 2, the concept of addition and the mathematical certainty of the conclusion. There the concurrence ends… or should.
[quote]forlife wrote:
At the same time, I firmly believe that logic, intellect, and objective scientific facts are the best defense we have against choosing to believe something is true simply because we want it to be true. Confirmatory bias is a well documented flaw in human reasoning. It is insidious, to the point that people will believe literally anything without even realizing the influence of this bias on their beliefs. Which is precisely why we see millions of people disagreeing on religious claims, despite being equally fervent, committed, and 100% convinced that their particular claims are correct and everyone else is mistaken.
Admitting your ignorance and being willing to go where the objective facts lead you isn’t easy, which is why relatively few actually do it.[/quote]Predictable and understandable. Please see above. There is no objectivity without God. And not just any ol God, but the triune God of the bible. Unprovable in your arena (as is anything else of significance) and entirely self evident in mine.
The moral systems most people have in their heads define rape as evil. To us, rape is morally wrong.
[/quote]
You feel like it’s wrong, but know that it actually isn’t. [/quote]
What do you mean I “know that it actually isn’t”? Since when does morality have to be dictated by a supernatural being in order to be valid? My value system is just as valid as the value system of your hypothetical supernatural being.
[quote]forlife wrote:
<<< you fully acknowledge that your beliefs aren’t supported by logic, intellect, or objective scientific facts. >>>[/quote] Not by fallen, sinful logic and intellect which are comprehensively impervious to OBJECTIVE facts of any kind, scientific or otherwise. I said in YOUR arena you are correct and Christians do err in confronting you there (generally speaking).
2+2=4 is a function of whatever school of snooty erudition the unbelieving participant at hand happens to subscribe to for the moment. To the mind of Christ living in the born again believer 2+2=4 is a finite reflection of the infinite, divine nature. They agree formally regarding the definition of 2, the concept of addition and the mathematical certainty of the conclusion. There the concurrence ends… or should.
[quote]forlife wrote:
At the same time, I firmly believe that logic, intellect, and objective scientific facts are the best defense we have against choosing to believe something is true simply because we want it to be true. Confirmatory bias is a well documented flaw in human reasoning. It is insidious, to the point that people will believe literally anything without even realizing the influence of this bias on their beliefs. Which is precisely why we see millions of people disagreeing on religious claims, despite being equally fervent, committed, and 100% convinced that their particular claims are correct and everyone else is mistaken.
Admitting your ignorance and being willing to go where the objective facts lead you isn’t easy, which is why relatively few actually do it.[/quote]Predictable and understandable. Please see above. There is no objectivity without God. And not just any ol God, but the triune God of the bible. Unprovable in your arena (as is anything else of significance) and entirely self evident in mine.
[/quote]
It may be self-evident to you, but millions of people claim that their own supernatural beliefs are even more self-evident. Which is why an objective, reliable, scientific method for testing hypotheses is superior to what people believe to be self-evident.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Not by fallen, sinful logic and intellect which are comprehensively impervious to OBJECTIVE facts of any kind, scientific or otherwise. I said in YOUR arena you are correct and Christians do err in confronting you there (generally speaking).
[/quote]
It’s surprisingly generous of you to concede that you can’t argue using facts and logic. Now that we’ve thrown them out the window, how exactly do we determine that Christianity is correct? Remember you can’t use any facts or logical deduction to arrive at your conclusion.
[quote]forlife wrote:
What do you mean I “know that it actually isn’t”? [/quote]
You don’t proclaim to know that rape is evil. You say you only feel like it should be seen as this thing called “evil,” while saying that others can say it isn’t with the same amount of scientific evidence, none.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Which is why an objective, reliable, scientific method for testing hypotheses is superior to what people believe to be self-evident.[/quote]
There went your ‘personal universal moral system.’ Good and evil aren’t science. Nuclear theory can develop power plants or lead to a nuclear war. The good or evil of either outcome isn’t determined by science.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Not by fallen, sinful logic and intellect which are comprehensively impervious to OBJECTIVE facts of any kind, scientific or otherwise. I said in YOUR arena you are correct and Christians do err in confronting you there (generally speaking).
[/quote]
<<< concede >>>[/quote]That was more of a declaration than a concession. I do not consider it in any way damaging to God’s credibility that He refuses to reduce himself to your pitiful intellect (or mine). On the contrary, it further highlights his glorious majesty. Of course this does presuppose that one already believes which is THE point. Maybe more later. Really busy with a half dozen computers at the moment.
[quote]forlife wrote:
What do you mean I “know that it actually isn’t”? [/quote]
You don’t proclaim to know that rape is evil. You say you only feel like it should be seen as this thing called “evil,” while saying that others can say it isn’t with the same amount of scientific evidence, none. [/quote]
You’re putting words in my mouth that I’ve never said. I know that rape is evil, based on my moral system and based on the moral systems of most other people.
No scientific evidence is required because, once again, it makes no statement about objective facts in the universe.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Which is why an objective, reliable, scientific method for testing hypotheses is superior to what people believe to be self-evident.[/quote]
There went your ‘personal universal moral system.’ Good and evil aren’t science. Nuclear theory can develop power plants or lead to a nuclear war. The good or evil of either outcome isn’t determined by science.[/quote]
I never said morality was subject to science. To the contrary, I’ve said repeatedly that morals make no assertions about objective facts in the universe.
My reply to Tiribulus was specifically about his religious claims regarding objective facts, like the existence of a beneficent, omnipotent supernatural being.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I know that rape is evil… it makes no statement about objective facts in the universe.[/quote]
[/quote]
Why do you keep confusing moral judgments with objective facts in one post, then contradicting yourself by admitting that morality isn’t subject to scientific inquiry in another post? State your position and stick with it.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I never said morality was subject to science. To the contrary, I’ve said repeatedly that morals make no assertions about objective facts in the universe.
[/quote]
So, again, “rape is evil” is not a fact for you. You do not KNOW that rape is evil. I