Atheism-o-phobia Part 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
781

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

You make claims, such as you can’t prove anything in the Bible, yet don’t back up your claim when the burden of proof is in your hands.

.[/quote]

hey hey hey I almost forgot! When the FUNK have I ever said that? I know you love simplicity and taking everything I say out of context but give me a break…
[/quote]

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

980×1608 59.4 KB

Everyone, meet god. God, this is everyone.

Although this sounds stupid - Unfortunately for you, it is no more or less evidentially based than a lot of the text in the bible. [/quote]

782

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
But the ends do justify the means for your god! With regards to the problem of evil, that is.
[/quote]

I do not follow, what are you talking about? Morality does not allow you to justify the means by the end.

783

[quote]kamui wrote:

probably a typo or a lapsus.
not Arabic, but Aramaic. [/quote]

Yep, thanks for the correction.

784

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
But the ends do justify the means for your god! With regards to the problem of evil, that is.
[/quote]

I do not follow, what are you talking about? Morality does not allow you to justify the means by the end. [/quote]

Pain in this world (means) for salvation/love/creating good/hereafter etc (end)

God justifies his ends by their means

785

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Who says I only go by the Bible? Answer me this, and we’ll continue. Until then it’s just going to be a string of straw man arguments on your part.[/quote]

You’re HEAPS good at jokes. Try disproving my dog is god though…

oo wait DOG turned around it GOD - MIRACLE!!![/quote]

See, you still haven’t shown me where I only go by the Bible. No, sorry you are twisted, you claimed your dog is a god, so the burden of proof is in your hands, still again.[/quote]

Just clarifying at this point whether you have down syndrome or some kind of spectrum disorder?

786

[quote]kamui wrote:
when the words of your dog will have changed our history and give birth to a civilization, i may actually consider reading it.

i just hope His Gospel can be translated in French.[/quote]

LMAO

787

I have been following this and a couple other threads in virtual silence the last week or so just marveling at the exalted truth of the Word of God, living and written.

There may be some who consider me to be on “their side”, even of the general debate on theism, who will take mild offense, but I am continually struck by the utter uselessness of arguing evidence and logic with the world as if the unregenerate were lacking only a sufficiently persuasive intellectual presentation.

1st Corinthians 1:18-31 - caps indicate a quote from the Old Testament as per the NASB translation:[quote]<<< 18-For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

19-For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”

20-Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21-For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22-For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23-but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24-but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25-Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

  26-For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27-but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28-and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29-so that no man may boast before God. 30-But [b]by His doing you are in Christ Jesus,[/b] who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31-so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD." >>>[/quote]Living proof is everywhere in these threads.
788

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
But the ends do justify the means for your god! With regards to the problem of evil, that is.
[/quote]

I do not follow, what are you talking about? Morality does not allow you to justify the means by the end. [/quote]

Pain in this world (means) for salvation/love/creating good/hereafter etc (end)

God justifies his ends by their means[/quote]

I am still not following, how does God cause pain?

789

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Who says I only go by the Bible? Answer me this, and we’ll continue. Until then it’s just going to be a string of straw man arguments on your part.[/quote]

You’re HEAPS good at jokes. Try disproving my dog is god though…

oo wait DOG turned around it GOD - MIRACLE!!![/quote]

See, you still haven’t shown me where I only go by the Bible. No, sorry you are twisted, you claimed your dog is a god, so the burden of proof is in your hands, still again.[/quote]

Just clarifying at this point whether you have down syndrome or some kind of spectrum disorder?
[/quote]

I really don’t get your arguing style. Oh, yes I do. It’s called personally attacking me instead of focusing on my point. Got it, okay. I’m going to ignore you now, because you obviously can’t come up with anything useful.

790

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I have been following this and a couple other threads in virtual silence the last week or so just marveling at the exalted truth of the Word of God, living and written.

There may be some who consider me to be on “their side”, even of the general debate on theism, who will take mild offense, but I am continually struck by the utter uselessness of arguing evidence and logic with the world as if the unregenerate were lacking only a sufficiently persuasive intellectual presentation.

1st Corinthians 1:18-31 - caps indicate a quote from the Old Testament as per the NASB translation:[quote]<<< 18-For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

19-For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”

20-Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21-For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22-For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23-but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24-but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25-Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

  26-For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27-but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28-and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29-so that no man may boast before God. 30-But [b]by His doing you are in Christ Jesus,[/b] who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31-so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD." >>>[/quote]Living proof is everywhere in these threads.

[/quote]

I enjoy many of your posts, but quite frankly this one sounds like something I would hear in bible study. Basically, I’m saying you’re preaching to the choir.

791

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
But the ends do justify the means for your god! With regards to the problem of evil, that is.
[/quote]

I do not follow, what are you talking about? Morality does not allow you to justify the means by the end. [/quote]

Pain in this world (means) for salvation/love/creating good/hereafter etc (end)

God justifies his ends by their means[/quote]

I am still not following, how does God cause pain?[/quote]

Oh, I forgot. We’ve all done this before. Fuck it - ignore my point.

792

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
But the ends do justify the means for your god! With regards to the problem of evil, that is.
[/quote]

I do not follow, what are you talking about? Morality does not allow you to justify the means by the end. [/quote]

Pain in this world (means) for salvation/love/creating good/hereafter etc (end)

God justifies his ends by their means[/quote]

I am still not following, how does God cause pain?[/quote]

Oh, I forgot. We’ve all done this before. Fuck it - ignore my point.[/quote]

Absolutely no sarcasm intended: What is your point, exactly? Would you mind elaborating upon your question just a bit? The problem of evil is a very good argument, but I’d need to know your assumptions before offering an answer.

For example, and I think this is what Chris was getting at, if you believe God to be the cause of pain and suffering, then you may have some false premises or mistaken assumptions that are leading you to a wrong conclusion (according to what Catholics and most Protestant Christians believe).

793

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
But the ends do justify the means for your god! With regards to the problem of evil, that is.
[/quote]

I do not follow, what are you talking about? Morality does not allow you to justify the means by the end. [/quote]

Pain in this world (means) for salvation/love/creating good/hereafter etc (end)

God justifies his ends by their means[/quote]

I am still not following, how does God cause pain?[/quote]

Oh, I forgot. We’ve all done this before. Fuck it - ignore my point.[/quote]

Absolutely no sarcasm intended: What is your point, exactly? Would you mind elaborating upon your question just a bit? The problem of evil is a very good argument, but I’d need to know your assumptions before offering an answer.

For example, and I think this is what Chris was getting at, if you believe God to be the cause of pain and suffering, then you may have some false premises or mistaken assumptions that are leading you to a wrong conclusion (according to what Catholics and most Protestant Christians believe).
[/quote]

Man… this thread has turned into quite the pissing match…

Anyway, honest question: If you propose God to be essentially the prime mover of the universe, doesn’t it follow to reason that he is responsible for all good and evil?

794

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
But the ends do justify the means for your god! With regards to the problem of evil, that is.
[/quote]

I do not follow, what are you talking about? Morality does not allow you to justify the means by the end. [/quote]

Pain in this world (means) for salvation/love/creating good/hereafter etc (end)

God justifies his ends by their means[/quote]

I am still not following, how does God cause pain?[/quote]

Oh, I forgot. We’ve all done this before. Fuck it - ignore my point.[/quote]

Absolutely no sarcasm intended: What is your point, exactly? Would you mind elaborating upon your question just a bit? The problem of evil is a very good argument, but I’d need to know your assumptions before offering an answer.

For example, and I think this is what Chris was getting at, if you believe God to be the cause of pain and suffering, then you may have some false premises or mistaken assumptions that are leading you to a wrong conclusion (according to what Catholics and most Protestant Christians believe).
[/quote]

Man… this thread has turned into quite the pissing match…

Anyway, honest question: If you propose God to be essentially the prime mover of the universe, doesn’t it follow to reason that he is responsible for all good and evil?[/quote]

Yes Cortes. What Swole asked above. This is my assumption - or rather, this is my view of the assumption that monotheism makes. Very different from a dual force construction of the universe, where a good force may be competing with an evil force at a generally equal level.

However, making god the prime mover means that by definition, everything that exists due to him, is the responsibility of him. Even if evil is couched in the language of “absence of good” it doesn’t detract from the fact that it was god’s decision to ALLOW a leeway for evil (say, the product of a free will)

Now if the above is true (and monotheism generally results in this conclusion) then god does feel that the ends justify the means. However, this last thought only occurred to me a couple of days ago, and I haven’t had the opportunity to think about it fully. It was in response to Brother Chris a few posts back. I was attempting to demonstrate that for god, the ends justify the means, so the problem of evil ties into this.

795

If I created heat, would I be responsible for cold?

796

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If I created heat, would I be responsible for cold?[/quote]

Well… yes. You would be, because the absence of heat is what defines cold. If there had never been such a thing as heat, then there would also never be such a thing as cold.

797

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If I created heat, would I be responsible for cold?[/quote]

False analogy. You have dodged the actual query, and not very well. How about you answer to the situation I described rather than the one you constructed? In your situation, energy already exists. It is of crucial importance that god actually created all the laws/conditions for everything else to exist.

God supposedly created the universe. Therefore he created all within it. Are you suggesting that something existed external to god, without his knowledge or power? I don’t actually have a problem with this view because in my mind, a god doesn’t have to be all powerful.

Why are people so hell bent on making him so? How about a being intelligent and powerful enough to create a “flawed” universe but not perfect? At least there isn’t any logical inconsistency with such a god.

798

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If I created heat, would I be responsible for cold?[/quote]

Well… yes. You would be, because the absence of heat is what defines cold. If there had never been such a thing as heat, then there would also never be such a thing as cold. [/quote]

Damn, I hate clever people. Why couldn’t I have thought to reply this way?

799

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If I created heat, would I be responsible for cold?[/quote]

Well… yes. You would be, because the absence of heat is what defines cold. If there had never been such a thing as heat, then there would also never be such a thing as cold. [/quote]

If there never had been such a thing as heat, then heat is absent. You might not put a word to it, of course. In any case, God creates man with free will. Now, if someone doesn’t believe in free will, don’t bother arguing with me, as I can’t change my mind on this. So, free will. Good is defined by God, since “good” and “evil” don’t exist as mechanisms in a mechanical universe. That’s our supernatural mumbo-jumbo, good and evil. Good, is what’s pleasing to God. So, evil is the absence of being pleasing to God.

You might as well blame me for the evil of murder, since I want murder to be unlawful, or at least seen as evil. Perhaps if we accepted murder as simply an action though, maybe it wouldn’t be evil? Moral, peaceful, people are responsible for evil?!

800

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If I created heat, would I be responsible for cold?[/quote]

In your situation, energy already exists…[/quote]

No, it doesn’t.