Atheism-o-phobia Part 2

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
I will have to check that book out.

You have absoultly no idea who has questioned what, just becuase someone hasnt reached the same conclusion as you dosent mean they have not questioned it.

You should check out Richard Dawkins “The God Delusion”[/quote]

Why do people bother with Dawkins book? His lack understanding of so many subjects makes it a painful read.

As for Strobel’s book: He doesn’t claim to be an expert in any of his books, but rounds up a whole bunch of them and interviews them. I am not a fan of his works either.

Both in my opinion are aiming for the introductory approach to both sides. So If Dawkins, or strobel are the only things you have read. Then I would say you have barely scratched the surface of the subject.

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
I will have to check that book out.

You have absoultly no idea who has questioned what, just becuase someone hasnt reached the same conclusion as you dosent mean they have not questioned it.

You should check out Richard Dawkins “The God Delusion”[/quote]

Why do people bother with Dawkins book? His lack understanding of so many subjects makes it a painful read.

As for Strobel’s book: He doesn’t claim to be an expert in any of his books, but rounds up a whole bunch of them and interviews them. I am not a fan of his works either.

Both in my opinion are aiming for the introductory approach to both sides. So If Dawkins, or strobel are the only things you have read. Then I would say you have barely scratched the surface of the subject.[/quote]

Please make recommendations.

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
I will have to check that book out.

You have absoultly no idea who has questioned what, just becuase someone hasnt reached the same conclusion as you dosent mean they have not questioned it.

You should check out Richard Dawkins “The God Delusion”[/quote]

Why do people bother with Dawkins book? His lack understanding of so many subjects makes it a painful read.

As for Strobel’s book: He doesn’t claim to be an expert in any of his books, but rounds up a whole bunch of them and interviews them. I am not a fan of his works either.

Both in my opinion are aiming for the introductory approach to both sides. So If Dawkins, or strobel are the only things you have read. Then I would say you have barely scratched the surface of the subject.[/quote]

Please make recommendations.[/quote]

For which part of the subject? Historical Jesus, Christ myths, philosophy, reliabilty of the NT, the cannon, etc… ?

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You are trying ro raise the bar of evidence when it comes to the existence of Jesus Christ.[/quote]

No he’s not.

Yes they are.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
As I’ve said many times a message board is a poor place to discuss these things, too much posturing.[/quote]

And yet here you are.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
I always take history with a pinch of salt, the older it is the more salt I pinch. After all history is written by the victors.

But to base your entire life around some history thats 2000 years old really must take some ‘faith’[/quote]

Our Faith doesn’t sit on one event 2000 years ago. [/quote]

One event =/= some history

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
I always take history with a pinch of salt, the older it is the more salt I pinch. After all history is written by the victors.

But to base your entire life around some history thats 2000 years old really must take some ‘faith’[/quote]

Our Faith doesn’t sit on one event 2000 years ago. [/quote]

One event =/= some history[/quote]

Okay, Mak when I flip you off after Mass, yes that is one event. However, I’m referring to the Crucifixion, so by event I mean the whole day and night before that Jesus was taken to be crucified.

Basically what I said was to point out the fact that not all our history is 2000 years ago. You’re forgetting stuff like when Mary appeared in Mexico and France.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
At no point did I assume that you have not questioned your spirtual views, you come accross as very intelligent person (very sarcastic though! or maybe im just reading into your coments too much) [/quote]

I just want to take this opportunity to say that you Raza you are one heck of a poster. I’ve tried to read as many of your posts as possible. Let’s just say that my natural tendencies steer toward getting things accomplished, big or small I like to do things. And for some reason when I get bogged down in a thread like this it just seems like a waste of time.

But again, that’s just me. I can see how someone would find it enjoyable. And I must say I’ve had my share of laughs at one or two posters. The problem is they were serious when they were posting. Welp I don’t want to keep you, I’m sure you have lots of God denying to do before the sun goes down. (See…see? I just can’t help myself…I have to stop this don’t I?)

Okay well you take care now,

Bye.

Zeb[/quote]

I just want to take this opportunity to say that you Zaeb you are one heck of a poster you must have a very boring life to be able to spend as much time posting as you do.

I wouldn’t even want to go to heaven and live for eternity in your company, infact that would be my hell.

But again, that’s just me. Welp I don’t want to keep you, I’m sure you have lots of God loving to do before the sun goes down. (See…see? I just can’t help myself… I can be a total douche bag just like you.)

Okay well you take care now,

Bye.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
I always take history with a pinch of salt, the older it is the more salt I pinch. After all history is written by the victors.

But to base your entire life around some history thats 2000 years old really must take some ‘faith’[/quote]

I can’t understand why people are comfortable in being content with “faith.” Religious faith basically requires a suspension of disbelief. The problem is that once this suspension is achieved then there is nothing to recommend catholicism over protestantism, or christianity over islam because evidence has largely been taken out of the equation.

If you believe in a divine jesus, you may as well believe in prophetic diction to muhammad … or any guy in some backstreet of New York claiming to be a messiah.[/quote]

This is a false dichotomy. Either we believe in God and we’re imbeciles or we don’t believe in God and we’re not imbeciles…you sir have a very open mind. [/quote]

WHAT?! Stop mischaracterising what I’ve said. You weren’t even within 9000xp of the point that I was making.

My point was that if your faith is not evidence-based (notice the IF) then why pick one particular religion over another?

I have absolutely no qualm with anyone believing in god. Nor with them believing in their religion. If however they claim that they know god exists, and it is based only on a “feeling” then how can they transcribe that feeling into a specific god/religion?

This was my point.

Now, if you have evidence, no matter how shaky at least you’ve made an effort.

Please, please, please, stop with the mischaracterisation.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
I always take history with a pinch of salt, the older it is the more salt I pinch. After all history is written by the victors.

But to base your entire life around some history thats 2000 years old really must take some ‘faith’[/quote]

Our Faith doesn’t sit on one event 2000 years ago. [/quote]

One event =/= some history[/quote]

Okay, Mak when I flip you off after Mass, yes that is one event. However, I’m referring to the Crucifixion, so by event I mean the whole day and night before that Jesus was taken to be crucified.

Basically what I said was to point out the fact that not all our history is 2000 years ago. You’re forgetting stuff like when Mary appeared in Mexico and France. [/quote]

When did she appear in Mexico? She could have tried to pay a visit to the rest of the world, no? Or are mexicans special in this regard?

What of mohammad splitting the moon in half and then putting it back together again? People sure claim a lot of stuff!

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

When did she appear in Mexico? She could have tried to pay a visit to the rest of the world, no? Or are mexicans special in this regard?
[/quote]

See Our Lady of Guadalupe. The story and later corroborating evidence (much of it confirmed by non-Christian sources and/or scientists) is nothing short of, well, miraculous. I’ve been to the Basilica in Mexico D. F. twice now and highly, highly recommend everyone, even atheists, go. Even if you won’t believe a damned bit of it, the history, the art, the culture and the beauty of it all are just fantastic.

[quote]Rza UK wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
At no point did I assume that you have not questioned your spirtual views, you come accross as very intelligent person (very sarcastic though! or maybe im just reading into your coments too much) [/quote]

I just want to take this opportunity to say that you Raza you are one heck of a poster. I’ve tried to read as many of your posts as possible. Let’s just say that my natural tendencies steer toward getting things accomplished, big or small I like to do things. And for some reason when I get bogged down in a thread like this it just seems like a waste of time.

But again, that’s just me. I can see how someone would find it enjoyable. And I must say I’ve had my share of laughs at one or two posters. The problem is they were serious when they were posting. Welp I don’t want to keep you, I’m sure you have lots of God denying to do before the sun goes down. (See…see? I just can’t help myself…I have to stop this don’t I?)

Okay well you take care now,

Bye.

Zeb[/quote]

I just want to take this opportunity to say that you Zaeb you are one heck of a poster you must have a very boring life to be able to spend as much time posting as you do.

I wouldn’t even want to go to heaven and live for eternity in your company, infact that would be my hell.

But again, that’s just me. Welp I don’t want to keep you, I’m sure you have lots of God loving to do before the sun goes down. (See…see? I just can’t help myself… I can be a total douche bag just like you.)

Okay well you take care now,

Bye.
[/quote]

Yes you can be a total douche bag but you can’t be an original total douche bag…like me :wink:

Bye bye

Your friend,

Zeb

OG-TDB

Word!

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
I will have to check that book out.

You have absoultly no idea who has questioned what, just becuase someone hasnt reached the same conclusion as you dosent mean they have not questioned it.

You should check out Richard Dawkins “The God Delusion”[/quote]

I am reading it, you should read “The Godless Delusion.”[/quote]

We should compile a “recommended reading list” from this thread… hmm… I just came up with a great idea of how to make this discussion entirely more productive. We could enact something along the lines of a book club.

I propose that every month we pick a book, alternating from various points of view, read it for the first 15 days of the month, then discuss it for the second 15.

I propose we start with Cortes’s recommendation… A refutation of moral relativism … I need to dig back and make sure that’s what it was. [/quote]

Well how could I possibly refuse? :slight_smile:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
At no point did I assume that you have not questioned your spirtual views, you come accross as very intelligent person (very sarcastic though! or maybe im just reading into your coments too much) [/quote]

I just want to take this opportunity to say that you Raza you are one heck of a poster. I’ve tried to read as many of your posts as possible. Let’s just say that my natural tendencies steer toward getting things accomplished, big or small I like to do things. And for some reason when I get bogged down in a thread like this it just seems like a waste of time.

But again, that’s just me. I can see how someone would find it enjoyable. And I must say I’ve had my share of laughs at one or two posters. The problem is they were serious when they were posting. Welp I don’t want to keep you, I’m sure you have lots of God denying to do before the sun goes down. (See…see? I just can’t help myself…I have to stop this don’t I?)

Okay well you take care now,

Bye.

Zeb[/quote]

I just want to take this opportunity to say that you Zaeb you are one heck of a poster you must have a very boring life to be able to spend as much time posting as you do.

I wouldn’t even want to go to heaven and live for eternity in your company, infact that would be my hell.

But again, that’s just me. Welp I don’t want to keep you, I’m sure you have lots of God loving to do before the sun goes down. (See…see? I just can’t help myself… I can be a total douche bag just like you.)

Okay well you take care now,

Bye.
[/quote]

Yes you can be a total douche bag but you can’t be an original total douche bag…like me :wink:

Bye bye

Your friend,

Zeb
[/quote]

Lol!

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
At no point did I assume that you have not questioned your spirtual views, you come accross as very intelligent person (very sarcastic though! or maybe im just reading into your coments too much) [/quote]

I just want to take this opportunity to say that you Raza you are one heck of a poster. I’ve tried to read as many of your posts as possible. Let’s just say that my natural tendencies steer toward getting things accomplished, big or small I like to do things. And for some reason when I get bogged down in a thread like this it just seems like a waste of time.

But again, that’s just me. I can see how someone would find it enjoyable. And I must say I’ve had my share of laughs at one or two posters. The problem is they were serious when they were posting. Welp I don’t want to keep you, I’m sure you have lots of God denying to do before the sun goes down. (See…see? I just can’t help myself…I have to stop this don’t I?)

Okay well you take care now,

Bye.

Zeb[/quote]

I just want to take this opportunity to say that you Zaeb you are one heck of a poster you must have a very boring life to be able to spend as much time posting as you do.

I wouldn’t even want to go to heaven and live for eternity in your company, infact that would be my hell.

But again, that’s just me. Welp I don’t want to keep you, I’m sure you have lots of God loving to do before the sun goes down. (See…see? I just can’t help myself… I can be a total douche bag just like you.)

Okay well you take care now,

Bye.
[/quote]

Yes you can be a total douche bag but you can’t be an original total douche bag…like me :wink:

Bye bye

Your friend,

Zeb
[/quote]

Lol!! To be fair, the best exchange so far.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

When did she appear in Mexico? She could have tried to pay a visit to the rest of the world, no? Or are mexicans special in this regard?
[/quote]

See Our Lady of Guadalupe. The story and later corroborating evidence (much of it confirmed by non-Christian sources and/or scientists) is nothing short of, well, miraculous. I’ve been to the Basilica in Mexico D. F. twice now and highly, highly recommend everyone, even atheists, go. Even if you won’t believe a damned bit of it, the history, the art, the culture and the beauty of it all are just fantastic.
[/quote]

This is a classic example of confirmatory bias at work. Cortes is obviously an intelligent, educated guy who seems to have his life together. However, how many Christians would look at his firm belief in the Guadalupe miracle and conclude it is misguided and out of touch with reality? Cortes really believes the objective evidence for this miracle is compelling, but equally intelligent, educated people may review the same evidence and conclude just the opposite. In retrospect, I can see the same process in my own thinking. Despite having a Ph.D. and being trained in the scientific method, I believed the evidence for my religious convictions was overwhelming. Of course, now I see it differently, and believe that I was biased in my evaluation of the facts, despite failing to see that at the time.

Which is why I take any claims for objective proof of the supernatural with a large grain of salt. People are too fallible, and despite the best training in critical thinking, what we want to be true often determines what we believe to be true, facts notwithstanding.

[i]The apron Juan Diego Cuauhtlatoatzin wore was studied by Philip Serna Callahan in 1981 with infrared rays. He reported that the portions of the face, hands, robe, and mantle had been painted in one step, with no sketches or corrections and no paintbrush strokes.

The Nobel Chemistry prize recipient Richard Kuhn said in 1936 that the colouring was not from a mineral, vegetable, or animal source. Studies started in 1956 and continuing to the present by several ophthalmologists, including Dr. Javier Torroella Bueno (1956) and Dr. José Aste Tonsmann (El Secreto de sus Ojos, 2001), claim to have found images reflected in the eyes of the Virgin after amplifying the photographs 2,500 times. The pupils reflect a group of Native Americans and Franciscans.

Some textile experts have said that they cannot understand how the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe has been conserved since 1531, exposed to dust, heat, humidity, and even a bomb without wearing down and without discoloration. [/i]

In addtion,


On November 14, 1921, a factory worker placed a bomb a few feet away from the apron. The explosion demolished the marble steps of the main altar, blew out the windows of nearby homes and bent a brass crucifix, but the fabric suffered no damage.

I’ve attached a picture of the crucifix. This is just a sampling of the really cool tests that have been performed on the image.

Confirmatory bias? I guess, maybe. But it’s not like the evidence that exists is the kind that any scientific minded person would dismiss, if it were not evidence pointing to the existence of God.

So, I’d just as readily submit “denial bias,” as well.

Oops, forgot the picture.

How about subjecting the material to scientific scrutiny by objective scientists without a preexisting religious bias? For example, the claim that the material is divinely protected from explosive damage is easily tested. Wrap it around a few sticks of dynamite, light the fuse, and see what happens.

Of course, we both know that will never happen.

The same criticism applies to other supernatural claims, like being able to read minds. People appear to have unexplainable psychic abilities, but when you put them in a lab and study their performance under controlled conditions, they are no more accurate than would be expected by chance alone.

I believed there was undeniable, indisputable, rock solid evidence for my religious beliefs back in the day…and now I realize that it was all a crock.

Am I now under a denial bias? Could be, which is why I think the most honest and accurate position toward the supernatural is to say we simply don’t know, and leave it at that.