Ask Moshe

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Further along this line. I understand there the rules that should apply, but that really leaves questions unanswered. I’m assuming that a gentile should still believe in the G-d of Abraham.

[/quote]

Correct.

Well, rule no. 1 (for everyone) is worship of HaShem (the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob) and (related thereto), the lack of idolotry (e.g., pagan idols, witchcraft, etc). Judaism does not pretend that Jewish folk are the only people to have received guidance from G-d. To the contrary, Judaism recognizes in its own scriptures that G-d revealed himself to many different peoples.

So, in short, the “correct” practive would be the practice dictated to that people, which (in whatever form it takes), if a true revelation, will be consistent with the Laws of Noah.

That said, Chabad in the USA sends “seeker” Gentiles (who are not seeking to convert) to various of the Noahadic organizations that are springing up.

Me, I have mixed feelings about that, as it almost seems like a new religion is being made.

[quote]

You mention Christianity is fine with some theological reservations, but what is the proper Jewish theology for a gentile? To essentially believe in everything in the Jewish religion, worship the Jewish god, but not be bound by the same rules?[/quote]

See above. Christianity has a special place in Jewish thought, in that (especially now with ready access to good translations) Christians accept the “Old” Testament to by 100% true and correct. This is unique among other religions — for example, Islam says the Bible is true, but corrupted and full of mistakes, so it must be disregarded.

This shared acceptance of the Torah is huge, and even the most embittered among us, recognize this commonality; in fact, Jewish people are typically taught to not discuss theology with others, but RamBam made an exception for Christians because they (generally) truely love G-d and seek to follow Him.

And, again, Christianity hits all the Laws of Noah just fine.

The adoption of Rabbi Hillel’s summary of the Law as “Love the L-rd they G-d with all they heart . . . .and love thy neighbor as thyself” by Christianity’s founder is a 100% correct summary of the Laws of Mt. Sinai and Moses.

So, in short, there is a huge shared commonality.

I think the big problem (other than the obvious theological ones) stem from the fact that Christians have been the single largest persecutor of Jewish people for the better part of 2,000 years. That’s a pretty shitty track record.[/quote]

So, something like a Jeffersonian Christian?

I know this kinda goes against your framework in this thread, but I find it interesting that some of Jesus’ teaching have been adopted (seemingly) by Jews. Is Rabbi Jesus included in Jewish tradition as a Rabbi (short of any claims of divinity)?

102

This is a really cool thread. Thanks, Jewbacca.

103

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

So, something like a Jeffersonian Christian?
[/quote]

I don’t know what that is.

[quote]

I know this kinda goes against your framework in this thread, but I find it interesting that some of Jesus’ teaching have been adopted (seemingly) by Jews. [/quote]

Not exactly. His teachings were restatements of the teachings Rabbi Hillel The Elder who lived from 110 BCE, died 10 CE. For example, Hillel first wrote the “Golden Rule.”

They were correct when stated by Hillel and re-stated by Yeshua.

Or to rephrase your statement, Rabbi Hillel’s teachings were adopted by Yeshua.

No. References to him are not flattering and would not be constructive here.

104

What an amazing thread.

I apologize if i ramble or am random, I am typing while my FEA models load/save.

I dated a jewish girl for about 5 years, and what you are saying is inconsistent with what she and her family taught me/practice in many aspects. It also disagrees with a theology teacher from my undergrad. I am not claiming you are incorrect in anything you have said, you seem amazingly knowledgable and genuine.

1- The old gf parents firmly believed that I was a hethon/non-believer/whatever and that believing in Jesus was Idolitry. Are there sects of the faith that believe this or something like it?

2- Is ‘goyem’ (sp?) a derogatory term?

3- My theology prof (and the book, I believe) said there was no way to convert. Not that it was frowned upon or considered unnecessary, but that it was not allowed. My old gf parents believed the same thing, which is why they were brow beating her brother to marry a Jewish girl, they didnt want their grandchildren to be lost causes. Were they absolutely wrong, or are there those in the faith that believe this, as well?

4- Is the idea of forgiveness/salvation widespread in the faith? When the old gf and i would talk about faith, she was intrigued by the concept of salvation.

I dont mean to disagree with anything you are saying, please do not take it that way. It is just so different from what (little) I was taught about the faith.

105

Jefferson created his own version of the bible where he essentially removed all the supernatural stuff from the New Testament.

106

[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:

1- The old gf parents firmly believed that I was a hethon/non-believer/whatever and that believing in Jesus was Idolitry. Are there sects of the faith that believe this or something like it?

[/quote]

Yes, there are sects of the faith that believe this. Ironically, it’s typically the Reform Jewish people who are harder on Christians than Orthodox. Orthodox tend to worry about their own behavior first.

Again, I am not saying that Orthodox Jewish belief is that Christianity is correct. More like, “it’s OK for gentiles.”

The parents also were probably mad that you were dating their Jewish daughter (as would I be), which is a big problem, unless you converted.

I am sure this colored the discussion, in that you were a potention father to Jewish children.

No, “goyim” just means “non-Jewish peoples or nations” in Hebrew. Same thing as “gentiles.” In fact, to be truly grammatically correct, while the phrase usually means “non-Jewish people,” Jewish people are also a “goy,” just Jewish goy.

I suppose if you say “goyim” nasty it can be derogatory, just like saying “Jew” nasty can be derogatory.

He needs to be fired, then. All of the Jewish people converted at Mt. Sinai.

Abraham and Sarah were the first converts.

The procedure and equal treatment of converts is black-letter Jewish law, not up for dispute.

I think they just didn’t like you. It’s just stupidly wrong. I am happy to supply links.

The only time a “convert” status comes into play is with women, and then a “first generation” convert can’t marry a Cohen, if the Cohen wishes to maintain his status as a Cohen (priest).

Just as I detailed above.

No worries. Whereever there are two Jewish people gathered, there are three opinions.

It sounds like your “teachers” were Reform. They know little about their own faith.

107

[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
My theology prof (and the book, I believe) said there was no way to convert. [/quote]

From “WhoisaJew.com”

  1. IS IT POSSIBLE FOR NON-JEWS TO CONVERT TO JUDAISM?

Most definitely, yes!

  1. HOW DOES A NON-JEW CONVERT TO JUDAISM?

Conversion to Judaism involves two basic steps on the part of the would-be convert:

  1. Acceptance of the principles, the teachings and the practices of the Jewish faith; and

  2. circumcision and immersion in a mikveh (ritual pool) for male converts, and immersion in a mikveh for female converts.

These two steps must be undertaken with the guidance and supervision of authorized representatives of the Jewish people (a qualified Bet-din - to be defined and explained below, nos. 11 and 12)."

http://www.whoisajew.com/

The more I think about it, it IS wrong to convert for someone else – e.g., a potential spouse. You should convert for yourself. Perhaps this is where they were going.

108

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Jefferson created his own version of the bible where he essentially removed all the supernatural stuff from the New Testament.

[/quote]

Ah, like the Lutheran Bible created by the Nazis with the Jewish people removed. I think it was 10 pages long.

109

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

The more I think about it, it IS wrong to convert for someone else – e.g., a potential spouse. You should convert for yourself. Perhaps this is where they were going.

[/quote]

I’m still a bit wishy washy on all of this. There are correct personal reasons to convert?

It just seems to me that if a gentile was doing the “right” thing and believed in the teachings of the Jewish religion, wouldn’t that person naturally desire conversion?

It would be like believing in democracy and not voting.

I was also hoping you could be more specific about God reveling himself to other peoples outside of Judaism.

110

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Jefferson created his own version of the bible where he essentially removed all the supernatural stuff from the New Testament.

[/quote]

Ah, like the Lutheran Bible created by the Nazis with the Jewish people removed. I think it was 10 pages long.[/quote]

HAH! Please tell me they deleted Jesus.

I was more referring to a small group of people who follow have followed Jesus as a teacher but reject the claims of divinity as being postmortem additions.

111

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I’m still a bit wishy washy on all of this. There are correct personal reasons to convert?

[/quote]

Sure. I was taught that sometimes a Jewish soul is “trapped” in a Gentile body, and this is the reason for conversion. As a practical matter, given the dispersion of the 10 tribes and the forced convesions of Jewish people by the Roman Catholic church — a large number of gentiles are are Jewish, and don’t know it. (For example, at one time during the Roman Empire, 1 in 4 people in what is now Italy was Jewish)

Well, no. All the goyim (including Jewish people) have a purpose. Think of us like a body. If the Jewish people were the heart and the German people the lungs, could we survive if the lungs wanted to be the heart? No, each has a job to do.

Cut-and-pasted from CHABAD:

“Need I convert to Judaism if I share its beliefs?”

No!

Belief in G-d, while a Jewish contribution, is by no means a Jewish monopoly.

All of mankind ought to believe in G-d, and, as a matter of fact, Judaism encourages it. There is no exclusive “Jewish belief” in G-d–there is the One G-d in whom Jews believe and teach all others to believe.

In addition, G-d gave the Torah, with its 613 Mitzvahs, to the Jewish People. Again, he also gave the non-Jewish peoples a parallel moral code: the Seven Noahide Laws. He expects every (non-Jewish) human being and society to live by these.

The Sages tell us that a non-Jew who fulfills these laws can anticipate much reward in the World-to-Come1. Therefore, under Jewish belief, there is no need for a non-Jew to convert to Judaism in order for him or her to enjoy a personal relationship with G-d.

If, however, a non-Jew wishes to convert to Judaism, he or she can do so by going through the same process that the Jewish People went through when they became Jews.

But regardless of religion, we are all on “Team G-d,” and the “sport” we are “playing” is making this world a better place. In Judaism, there’s no human being who has no place, purpose or importance.

I would also note this book:

The Path of the Righteous Gentile

[quote]

I was also hoping you could be more specific about God reveling himself to other peoples outside of Judaism.[/quote]

Well, the Bible has a number of examples of non-Jewish prophets and other notables.

Job, for example as the best-of-the-best.

Balaam, for a gentile prophet who abused his relationship with G-d.

The Talmud says there were at least seven non-Jewish prophets.

Rashi, a foremost commentator on the Torah, explains that it would be unfair to expect people to live by G-dly standards without giving them the opportunity of prophecy

112

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:

1- The old gf parents firmly believed that I was a hethon/non-believer/whatever and that believing in Jesus was Idolitry. Are there sects of the faith that believe this or something like it?

[/quote]

Yes, there are sects of the faith that believe this. Ironically, it’s typically the Reform Jewish people who are harder on Christians than Orthodox. Orthodox tend to worry about their own behavior first.

Again, I am not saying that Orthodox Jewish belief is that Christianity is correct. More like, “it’s OK for gentiles.”

The parents also were probably mad that you were dating their Jewish daughter (as would I be), which is a big problem, unless you converted.

I am sure this colored the discussion, in that you were a potention father to Jewish children.
[/quote]
haha, they did hate me something fierce. I am sure cuz i was a dirty Christian, but also because I am from the midwest and they are east coast snobs. thanks for the insight.

That is what she thought, and I as well. It was her parents that didnt like her using the term. She called me goy and I called her wej (Jew backwards). Very silly and likely insulting, but done innocently. when she called me goy her parents threw a fit. Probably because it made it blatantly obvious I wasnt Jewish to any onlookers.

I am pretty sure her dad was, which makes sense, I guess. Thanks for your thoughts.

ps - i dont feel like straightening out the quote stuff right now…

113

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Jefferson created his own version of the bible where he essentially removed all the supernatural stuff from the New Testament.

[/quote]

Ah, like the Lutheran Bible created by the Nazis with the Jewish people removed. I think it was 10 pages long.[/quote]

HAH! Please tell me they deleted Jesus.

I was more referring to a small group of people who follow have followed Jesus as a teacher but reject the claims of divinity as being postmortem additions.[/quote]

114

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I’m still a bit wishy washy on all of this. There are correct personal reasons to convert?

[/quote]

Sure. I was taught that sometimes a Jewish soul is “trapped” in a Gentile body, and this is the reason for conversion. As a practical matter, given the dispersion of the 10 tribes and the forced convesions of Jewish people by the Roman Catholic church — a large number of gentiles are are Jewish, and don’t know it. (For example, at one time during the Roman Empire, 1 in 4 people in what is now Italy was Jewish)

Well, no. All the goyim (including Jewish people) have a purpose. Think of us like a body. If the Jewish people were the heart and the German people the lungs, could we survive if the lungs wanted to be the heart? No, each has a job to do.

Cut-and-pasted from CHABAD:

“Need I convert to Judaism if I share its beliefs?”

No!

Belief in G-d, while a Jewish contribution, is by no means a Jewish monopoly.

All of mankind ought to believe in G-d, and, as a matter of fact, Judaism encourages it. There is no exclusive “Jewish belief” in G-d–there is the One G-d in whom Jews believe and teach all others to believe.

In addition, G-d gave the Torah, with its 613 Mitzvahs, to the Jewish People. Again, he also gave the non-Jewish peoples a parallel moral code: the Seven Noahide Laws. He expects every (non-Jewish) human being and society to live by these.

The Sages tell us that a non-Jew who fulfills these laws can anticipate much reward in the World-to-Come1. Therefore, under Jewish belief, there is no need for a non-Jew to convert to Judaism in order for him or her to enjoy a personal relationship with G-d.

If, however, a non-Jew wishes to convert to Judaism, he or she can do so by going through the same process that the Jewish People went through when they became Jews.

But regardless of religion, we are all on “Team G-d,” and the “sport” we are “playing” is making this world a better place. In Judaism, there’s no human being who has no place, purpose or importance.

I would also note this book:

The Path of the Righteous Gentile

[quote]

I was also hoping you could be more specific about God reveling himself to other peoples outside of Judaism.[/quote]

Well, the Bible has a number of examples of non-Jewish prophets and other notables.

Job, for example as the best-of-the-best.

Balaam, for a gentile prophet who abused his relationship with G-d.

The Talmud says there were at least seven non-Jewish prophets.

Rashi, a foremost commentator on the Torah, explains that it would be unfair to expect people to live by G-dly standards without giving them the opportunity of prophecy[/quote]

So, would you allow your daughter to marry a lung? Specifically a righteous one.

I’ll give that book a look.

115

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

So, would you allow your daughter to marry a lung? Specifically a righteous one.

I’ll give that book a look.[/quote]

My daughters would not marry non-Jewish men, and a righteous gentile would not seek to marry any of them, as that would cause said daughter to violate the mitzvah against marrying a non-Jewish man.

Now, I would have zero issue with any of my daughters marrying a man who converted independently of his courtship of her. In fact, my second-eldest is seriously dating a young man who immigrated to Israel very young (of Paternal Jewish descent; mother Russian) who underwent an Orthodox conversion prior to joining the IDF.

116

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

So, would you allow your daughter to marry a lung? Specifically a righteous one.

I’ll give that book a look.[/quote]

My daughters would not marry non-Jewish men, and a righteous gentile would not seek to marry any of them, as that would cause said daughter to violate the mitzvah against marrying a non-Jewish man.

Now, I would have zero issue with any of my daughters marrying a man who converted independently of his courtship of her. In fact, my second-eldest is seriously dating a young man who immigrated to Israel very young (of Paternal Jewish descent; mother Russian) who underwent an Orthodox conversion prior to joining the IDF.[/quote]

Personally, I would say, doing it for your wife IS doing it for yourself. Did you not convert to Hasidic for your wife?

Ruth was a gentile. I at least don’t remember reading of her even converting. But I digress.

117

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Personally, I would say, doing it for your wife IS doing it for yourself. Did you not convert to Hasidic for your wife?
[/quote]

I didn’t “convert” to Hasdic. I’m Orthodox of a similar group. Be like “converting” from Lutheran to Methodist.

Indeed, a Moabite princess.

[quote]
I at least don’t remember reading of her even converting. But I digress.[/quote]

"Wherever you go I will go; wherever you lodge I will lodge. Your nation is my nation; and your G-d is my G-d.â??

That’s the epitome of a sincere conversion.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2052/jewish/Mother-of-Royalty.htm

118

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
My theology prof (and the book, I believe) said there was no way to convert. [/quote]

From “WhoisaJew.com”

  1. IS IT POSSIBLE FOR NON-JEWS TO CONVERT TO JUDAISM?

Most definitely, yes!

  1. HOW DOES A NON-JEW CONVERT TO JUDAISM?

Conversion to Judaism involves two basic steps on the part of the would-be convert:

  1. Acceptance of the principles, the teachings and the practices of the Jewish faith; and

  2. circumcision and immersion in a mikveh (ritual pool) for male converts, and immersion in a mikveh for female converts.

These two steps must be undertaken with the guidance and supervision of authorized representatives of the Jewish people (a qualified Bet-din - to be defined and explained below, nos. 11 and 12)."

http://www.whoisajew.com/

The more I think about it, it IS wrong to convert for someone else – e.g., a potential spouse. You should convert for yourself. Perhaps this is where they were going.

[/quote]

Haha, source citation and everything. Awesome.

I can see where you are coming from with converting only genuinely for yourself. It does seem somewhat superficial or less genuine if you are doing it ‘just’ for a spouse.

119

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
This is a really cool thread. Thanks, Jewbacca. [/quote]

You’re welcome. But as noted, it relies upon people like you asking questions.

120

I heard if you eat pork, you guys melt? If this is not the case, though I assume it is, what do you hypothesize is the reason for not eating pork?