Ask Moshe

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
401

Great thread.

What’s your take on King Soloman? I’ve heard him referred to as “Wise” but he seemed to me to be an incredibly shitty leader, unlike his father David. I don’t have my Bible with me, otherwise I would back up my position with quotes from specific books and chapters, but I recall a few points to back up my position:

-Had a thousand wives which must have been hugely expensive and a great economic burden on his people. As I recall most of the tribes of Isreal rebelled against his successor becuase he refused to ease the yoke that Soloman placed on his people. Supporting such a lavish lifestyle was probably a major part of that yoke.

-Later in life he sacrificed to Baal, under the influence of one of his foriegn wives. Which constitues two sins, sacrifing to another god, and marrying a foriegn woman.

Sure he built the Temple, but only becuase David was not allowed to becuase of the blood on his hands, so that honor naturally fell to Soloman by virtue of being next in line. I also recall that God was against giving the tribes of Israel a king, and frequently warned his people that if the chose a king it would turn out badly. But as often happened they failed to listen.

402

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
I have two questions:

  1. Why circumcision for Jews?

  2. I am dating a teacher who (I discovered last weekend) is Jewish. Pretty seriously dating, for me. As in she is nice, smart, beautiful, very athletic, tall, and loves my horses and can tolerate my mother. Met her parents last weekend; can’t say they cared for me, although I am a personable guy, Army Vet, college grad, reasonably wealthy (as in I could sit on my ass from here until I die, if I was that kind of guy), but also a business owner and gainfully employed. In fact, they were pretty rude, if not hostile. What should I know about dating Jewish girls?[/quote]

These are huge questions that I do not have the time to answer. They are also good, important, questions and I want to give them their due.

403

[quote]treco wrote:
What are your thoughts on the current backlash on being able to skip military service while being schooled for religious studies?
[/quote]

I think 90% who complain are complete shmucks and milking the welfare system. I am Orthodox, a Levite, and a Cohanim, and I did my part.

I would also say the tide is turning in the IDF to protect the relgious rights of Orthodox (e.g., religious units), so the issue is resolving itself.

Tere is a complex layer to this, relating to the fact that a small, but loud, minority of Orthodox Jews disagree with the establishment of the secular state of Israel and this was part of the compromise to gain cooperation.

In short, this was an exception for a small group that a much larger group is using to milk the system.

[quote]

Would the devout community consider their spiritual leaders as the nation’s true conduit for protection as the ministers of G-D? In other words - a spiritual hedge of protection surrounding Israel.[/quote]

I don’t doubt this is true, both that they believe it and that it is a powerful protection. By all logical means, we should have been overrun many, many times. If you want proof of G-d’s power, just the mere fact of my existence when by all logic I should have never been born is pretty darn good.

That said, the most vervent and effective prayers (IMHO) are from soldiers and their mothers, not professionals.

404

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
Great thread.

What’s your take on King Soloman? I’ve heard him referred to as “Wise” but he seemed to me to be an incredibly shitty leader, unlike his father David. I don’t have my Bible with me, otherwise I would back up my position with quotes from specific books and chapters, but I recall a few points to back up my position:

-Had a thousand wives which must have been hugely expensive and a great economic burden on his people. As I recall most of the tribes of Isreal rebelled against his successor becuase he refused to ease the yoke that Soloman placed on his people. Supporting such a lavish lifestyle was probably a major part of that yoke.

-Later in life he sacrificed to Baal, under the influence of one of his foriegn wives. Which constitues two sins, sacrifing to another god, and marrying a foriegn woman.

Sure he built the Temple, but only becuase David was not allowed to becuase of the blood on his hands, so that honor naturally fell to Soloman by virtue of being next in line. I also recall that God was against giving the tribes of Israel a king, and frequently warned his people that if the chose a king it would turn out badly. But as often happened they failed to listen.
[/quote]

Wisdom does not equte to will.

Many of the best proverbs and the like were written by Shlomo. They remain brilliant advise for living life today, for Jewish person or no. So Shlomo knew what was right, but chose to not do so.

That’s much worse than the fool who does things unknowingly. Still, he would ultimately repent, but the consequences of his sin were great and echo today.

For example, he was an extremely successful, worldly, king. There are his buildings all over Israel. Or rather, ruins of his buildings.

For his sins still echo today.

His last great (or last recorded) sin was the marriage to an Eqyptian princess. If you follow the tale forward through time (and it’s easy to use secular history to do this), that union eventually leads to the Roman Empire which, in turn, destroys the Second Temple and the Diaspora of the Jewish people that we suffer today.

So, not a fan.

405

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
I have two questions:

  1. Why circumcision for Jews?

  2. I am dating a teacher who (I discovered last weekend) is Jewish. Pretty seriously dating, for me. As in she is nice, smart, beautiful, very athletic, tall, and loves my horses and can tolerate my mother. Met her parents last weekend; can’t say they cared for me, although I am a personable guy, Army Vet, college grad, reasonably wealthy (as in I could sit on my ass from here until I die, if I was that kind of guy), but also a business owner and gainfully employed. In fact, they were pretty rude, if not hostile. What should I know about dating Jewish girls?[/quote]

That no doubt they tracked you down, found out that you are on T-Nation and realized you have admitted that you are cheating on their daughter with a crazy sex craved bitch from Hell. They are good at tracking people…

I hope you understand I am saying this in good fun:)
And I have an apology ready if I misread on of your posts:)

406

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
I have two questions:

  1. Why circumcision for Jews?

  2. I am dating a teacher who (I discovered last weekend) is Jewish. Pretty seriously dating, for me. As in she is nice, smart, beautiful, very athletic, tall, and loves my horses and can tolerate my mother. Met her parents last weekend; can’t say they cared for me, although I am a personable guy, Army Vet, college grad, reasonably wealthy (as in I could sit on my ass from here until I die, if I was that kind of guy), but also a business owner and gainfully employed. In fact, they were pretty rude, if not hostile. What should I know about dating Jewish girls?[/quote]

These are huge questions that I do not have the time to answer. They are also good, important, questions and I want to give them their due.[/quote]

For #2 you could substitute Mormon, Catholic, Hindi, Buddist ect. for Jewish.

That question is as old as time…I have run into the exact same scenario with LDS families. It’s to be expected

408

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Okay, but I asked for an example of a woman refusing marriage after being chazaq-ed. I want to know if women were really allowed to refuse marriage, or if it was just an “on paper” kind of right, if that.

Tamar must have been one homely broad if Ammon would sooner die than be forced to wake up next to her every mourning. Sort of makes you wonder why he’d want to rape her in the first place.[/quote]

The fact that you make such a glaring error regarding what Tamar looked like shows you have not bothered to read 2 Samuel or put any effort into this.

I’m not going to spoon feed you, or hunt through the Gemara, etc., for the recorded cases and give you cites unless you make the basic effort to read the documents that are widely availble, online, in English. It’s almost Shabbos, and I am a busy guy.

I’m not going to waste time on a mocker who has no real intention of learning when there are actual, interested, people.

Here are some basic questions for you to answer, to show you are worth teaching:

  1. Who was Tamar? Who was her mother? What did she look like?

  2. What emotion or tendancy led to Amnon’s sin (or “bad act” if you prefer)?

  3. How did Amnon trick Tamar?

  4. What was David’s fault in all this? What could he have done differently?

  5. After the rape, Amnon attempted to send Tamar away. She responded “No, my brother; for this is wrong in sending me away is greater than the other that you did to me.” What did she mean? How is Deuteronomy 22:28 referenced here?

  6. Amnon came to a bad end. What was it?

  7. Does the fact that Amnon was punished confirm the mitzvah burdened him and not Tamar? If so, how?

  8. Would Ammon Still have been punished if the mitzvah to marry was Tamar’s and not his? Why? What was his other crime?

Give me good faith answers to these, and I will continue to help you.[/quote]

… Wow, you got really defensive there.

I was joking about Tamar. Obviously I don’t actually think a man would choose death over marriage simply because of his bride’s appearance. That’s the joke, and I know you’re smart enough to catch this, which tells me something about you.

I do seriously want to know if there are actual accounts of women exercising their right to not marry their rapists, but this post here pretty much answers that question for me.

For what it’s worth, I will look into these questions to satisfy my own curiosity on the matter, but I see no reason to continue this line of questioning. You’ve made the answer abundantly clear.

409

To prove that I’m not simply backing away from your question, I will answer as many of them as I can with what little I do know and understand on the topic.

  1. Daughter of David. Maacah. I’m not sure if you mean what Maacah looks like or Tamar, but I’m assuming Tamar. From what I’ve read, she’s built up to be a model daughter: beautiful, obedient, chaste. Whether this is actually factual or simply a literary device to make the story of her eventual rape more horrifying, I don’t know.

  2. Again, this is just from what I understand, but it looks like he started out just being a good brother and eventually his feelings for her grew into lust.

  3. It wasn’t his plan, it was his friend’s (Jonadab, and yes, I just looked up his name now =p). Basically, he faked sick, had her get him food, then asked for sex, which she denied. Not really much of a trick if you ask me, but hey people have fallen for lesser tricks.

  4. I’m not sure about this one. There is a two year gap between the rape and when Amnon is killed, this tells me that David wasn’t planning on doing anything about it. I can’t say what he should have done differently, but he could have upheld the law and forced Amnon to marry Tamar. My guess is he didn’t want to risk Amnon saying “no” because David would then be forced to have his eldest son killed.

  5. Tamar is referencing Amnon’s obligation to marry her now that he’s had sex with her. By saying “No, my brother; for this is wrong in sending me away is greater than the other that you did to me.” she is saying that not marrying her after raping her is a more heinous crime than having sex with your sister, which is also a crime.

  6. Absalom ordered his servants to kill Amnon when he was drunk. Absalom did this because he was Tamar’s brother and so he hated Amnon for raping her.

  7. Perhaps. He was the one who refused, so if anyone should die over it, it’s him. If the situation was reversed and Tamar denied her brother in marriage, would she have been killed? I guess that’s what I’m trying to find out.

8.This is also what I’m trying to find out. By “other crime” are you referring to the fact that on top of refusing to marry her after raping her, Tamar was his his sister?

Hmm. this wasn’t as time-consuming as I thought it would be.

This is the translation I used >> 2 Samuel 12 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

410

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
I have two questions:

  1. Why circumcision for Jews?

  2. I am dating a teacher who (I discovered last weekend) is Jewish. Pretty seriously dating, for me. As in she is nice, smart, beautiful, very athletic, tall, and loves my horses and can tolerate my mother. Met her parents last weekend; can’t say they cared for me, although I am a personable guy, Army Vet, college grad, reasonably wealthy (as in I could sit on my ass from here until I die, if I was that kind of guy), but also a business owner and gainfully employed. In fact, they were pretty rude, if not hostile. What should I know about dating Jewish girls?[/quote]

These are huge questions that I do not have the time to answer. They are also good, important, questions and I want to give them their due.[/quote]

Thanks, and the topic of conversion came up with the parents. I’m Roman Catholic and would be willing to convert, I think.

411

Hey Jewbacca I have a question. What is the significance of Melchizedek in Judaism? I see him mentioned only in Genesis and then once in the Psalms. Yet, for someone of who so little is written, he seems to be very significant. So what is his significance and is he mentioned in more detail in other texts such as the Talmud?

Thanks!

412

[quote]pat wrote:
Hey Jewbacca I have a question. What is the significance of Melchizedek in Judaism? I see him mentioned only in Genesis and then once in the Psalms. Yet, for someone of who so little is written, he seems to be very significant. So what is his significance and is he mentioned in more detail in other texts such as the Talmud?

Thanks! [/quote]

Well, I disagree that there is so little written about him.

He’s Shem, the grandfather of Abram (later Abraham), through Shem’s son, Arpachshad.

Shem was given the priesthood by receipt of his father Noah’s blessing “G-d beatified Yefeth-and will dwell in the house of Shem.” — he will merit to serve and host G-d as a Kohen.
(Genesis 9:27)

Shem skipped (or was caused to skip) his less-desirable sons/grandchildren when passing along the priesthood, just like Abraham, Issac, and Jacob did.

Jacob (with his many sons) divided out the kingly duties from the kohen duties, which is the source of confusion for many.

Also, it’s not clear (to me) the guy in Psalms is the same guy. In Genesis, it’s one word, in Psalms, two.

413

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
To prove that I’m not simply backing away from your question, I will answer as many of them as I can with what little I do know and understand on the topic.

  1. Daughter of David. Maacah. I’m not sure if you mean what Maacah looks like or Tamar, but I’m assuming Tamar. From what I’ve read, she’s built up to be a model daughter: beautiful, obedient, chaste. Whether this is actually factual or simply a literary device to make the story of her eventual rape more horrifying, I don’t know.

  2. Again, this is just from what I understand, but it looks like he started out just being a good brother and eventually his feelings for her grew into lust.

  3. It wasn’t his plan, it was his friend’s (Jonadab, and yes, I just looked up his name now =p). Basically, he faked sick, had her get him food, then asked for sex, which she denied. Not really much of a trick if you ask me, but hey people have fallen for lesser tricks.

  4. I’m not sure about this one. There is a two year gap between the rape and when Amnon is killed, this tells me that David wasn’t planning on doing anything about it. I can’t say what he should have done differently, but he could have upheld the law and forced Amnon to marry Tamar. My guess is he didn’t want to risk Amnon saying “no” because David would then be forced to have his eldest son killed.

  5. Tamar is referencing Amnon’s obligation to marry her now that he’s had sex with her. By saying “No, my brother; for this is wrong in sending me away is greater than the other that you did to me.” she is saying that not marrying her after raping her is a more heinous crime than having sex with your sister, which is also a crime.

  6. Absalom ordered his servants to kill Amnon when he was drunk. Absalom did this because he was Tamar’s brother and so he hated Amnon for raping her.

  7. Perhaps. He was the one who refused, so if anyone should die over it, it’s him. If the situation was reversed and Tamar denied her brother in marriage, would she have been killed? I guess that’s what I’m trying to find out.

8.This is also what I’m trying to find out. By “other crime” are you referring to the fact that on top of refusing to marry her after raping her, Tamar was his his sister?

Hmm. this wasn’t as time-consuming as I thought it would be.

This is the translation I used >> 2 Samuel 12 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

[/quote]

Good faith answer. Haven’t forgotten about you.

Bit more reading before we get into it: just before these events, David got Uriah the Hitite (who was presumably a Jew-by-choice, and thus highly regarded by G-d) killed because he wanted to get a between the legs of Bathsheba.

What did G-d do in response to David’s treachery? How is that a source of this cluster-f–k?

414

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
I have two questions:

  1. Why circumcision for Jews?

  2. I am dating a teacher who (I discovered last weekend) is Jewish. Pretty seriously dating, for me. As in she is nice, smart, beautiful, very athletic, tall, and loves my horses and can tolerate my mother. Met her parents last weekend; can’t say they cared for me, although I am a personable guy, Army Vet, college grad, reasonably wealthy (as in I could sit on my ass from here until I die, if I was that kind of guy), but also a business owner and gainfully employed. In fact, they were pretty rude, if not hostile. What should I know about dating Jewish girls?[/quote]

These are huge questions that I do not have the time to answer. They are also good, important, questions and I want to give them their due.[/quote]

Thanks, and the topic of conversion came up with the parents. I’m Roman Catholic and would be willing to convert, I think.[/quote]

I figured as much. I have serious answers to your questions. But it’s an “hour” thing and I have a few minutes.

415

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Hey Jewbacca I have a question. What is the significance of Melchizedek in Judaism? I see him mentioned only in Genesis and then once in the Psalms. Yet, for someone of who so little is written, he seems to be very significant. So what is his significance and is he mentioned in more detail in other texts such as the Talmud?

Thanks! [/quote]

Well, I disagree that there is so little written about him.

He’s Shem, the grandfather of Abram (later Abraham), through Shem’s son, Arpachshad.

Shem was given the priesthood by receipt of his father Noah’s blessing “G-d beatified Yefeth-and will dwell in the house of Shem.” — he will merit to serve and host G-d as a Kohen.
(Genesis 9:27)

Shem skipped (or was caused to skip) his less-desirable sons/grandchildren when passing along the priesthood, just like Abraham, Issac, and Jacob did.

Jacob (with his many sons) divided out the kingly duties from the kohen duties, which is the source of confusion for many.

Also, it’s not clear (to me) the guy in Psalms is the same guy. In Genesis, it’s one word, in Psalms, two.[/quote]

Correct me if I am wrong but several other religions hold Melchizedek in very high esteem…the Mormons even label their highest priesthood as the Melchizedek priesthood.

416

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Hey Jewbacca I have a question. What is the significance of Melchizedek in Judaism? I see him mentioned only in Genesis and then once in the Psalms. Yet, for someone of who so little is written, he seems to be very significant. So what is his significance and is he mentioned in more detail in other texts such as the Talmud?

Thanks! [/quote]

Well, I disagree that there is so little written about him.

He’s Shem, the grandfather of Abram (later Abraham), through Shem’s son, Arpachshad.

Shem was given the priesthood by receipt of his father Noah’s blessing “G-d beatified Yefeth-and will dwell in the house of Shem.” — he will merit to serve and host G-d as a Kohen.
(Genesis 9:27)

Shem skipped (or was caused to skip) his less-desirable sons/grandchildren when passing along the priesthood, just like Abraham, Issac, and Jacob did.

Jacob (with his many sons) divided out the kingly duties from the kohen duties, which is the source of confusion for many.

Also, it’s not clear (to me) the guy in Psalms is the same guy. In Genesis, it’s one word, in Psalms, two.[/quote]

Correct me if I am wrong but several other religions hold Melchizedek in very high esteem…the Mormons even label their highest priesthood as the Melchizedek priesthood.[/quote]

The Mormons also say I’m (and other Apache) a lost tribe of Israel or some crap.

417

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Hey Jewbacca I have a question. What is the significance of Melchizedek in Judaism? I see him mentioned only in Genesis and then once in the Psalms. Yet, for someone of who so little is written, he seems to be very significant. So what is his significance and is he mentioned in more detail in other texts such as the Talmud?

Thanks! [/quote]

Well, I disagree that there is so little written about him.

He’s Shem, the grandfather of Abram (later Abraham), through Shem’s son, Arpachshad.

Shem was given the priesthood by receipt of his father Noah’s blessing “G-d beatified Yefeth-and will dwell in the house of Shem.” — he will merit to serve and host G-d as a Kohen.
(Genesis 9:27)

Shem skipped (or was caused to skip) his less-desirable sons/grandchildren when passing along the priesthood, just like Abraham, Issac, and Jacob did.

Jacob (with his many sons) divided out the kingly duties from the kohen duties, which is the source of confusion for many.

Also, it’s not clear (to me) the guy in Psalms is the same guy. In Genesis, it’s one word, in Psalms, two.[/quote]

Interesting. I will look that up. What is his significance in Judaism as a figure? I know he was a high priest, but beyond taking Abram’s sacrifice.
I will be rereading Genesis soon, so I will look for these signs and tie ins you describe. Thanks Jewbacca.

418

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Hey Jewbacca I have a question. What is the significance of Melchizedek in Judaism? I see him mentioned only in Genesis and then once in the Psalms. Yet, for someone of who so little is written, he seems to be very significant. So what is his significance and is he mentioned in more detail in other texts such as the Talmud?

Thanks! [/quote]

Well, I disagree that there is so little written about him.

He’s Shem, the grandfather of Abram (later Abraham), through Shem’s son, Arpachshad.

Shem was given the priesthood by receipt of his father Noah’s blessing “G-d beatified Yefeth-and will dwell in the house of Shem.” — he will merit to serve and host G-d as a Kohen.
(Genesis 9:27)

Shem skipped (or was caused to skip) his less-desirable sons/grandchildren when passing along the priesthood, just like Abraham, Issac, and Jacob did.

Jacob (with his many sons) divided out the kingly duties from the kohen duties, which is the source of confusion for many.

Also, it’s not clear (to me) the guy in Psalms is the same guy. In Genesis, it’s one word, in Psalms, two.[/quote]

Correct me if I am wrong but several other religions hold Melchizedek in very high esteem…the Mormons even label their highest priesthood as the Melchizedek priesthood.[/quote]

The heresies that have evolved from mis-reading and mis-application of Jewish scriptures are very great. This 'tis but one.

419

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

He’s Shem, the grandfather of Abram (later Abraham), through Shem’s son, Arpachshad.

[/quote]

What is his significance in Judaism as a figure?[/quote]

Well, Shem is the father of all Semites. His Latinzed name is where the term “semites” comes from. {Semite meaning (in part) “descendants of Shem”}.

So, he’s rather significant, in that our identity as a people stems from him. Similarly, as Abraham’s grandfather, Abraham’s right to the priesthood flows through him (and hence the sacrifice you discuss).

Less is known about him that various patriarchs, but that does not make him less significant.

420

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Hey Jewbacca I have a question. What is the significance of Melchizedek in Judaism? I see him mentioned only in Genesis and then once in the Psalms. Yet, for someone of who so little is written, he seems to be very significant. So what is his significance and is he mentioned in more detail in other texts such as the Talmud?

Thanks! [/quote]

Well, I disagree that there is so little written about him.

He’s Shem, the grandfather of Abram (later Abraham), through Shem’s son, Arpachshad.

Shem was given the priesthood by receipt of his father Noah’s blessing “G-d beatified Yefeth-and will dwell in the house of Shem.” — he will merit to serve and host G-d as a Kohen.
(Genesis 9:27)

Shem skipped (or was caused to skip) his less-desirable sons/grandchildren when passing along the priesthood, just like Abraham, Issac, and Jacob did.

Jacob (with his many sons) divided out the kingly duties from the kohen duties, which is the source of confusion for many.

Also, it’s not clear (to me) the guy in Psalms is the same guy. In Genesis, it’s one word, in Psalms, two.[/quote]

Correct me if I am wrong but several other religions hold Melchizedek in very high esteem…the Mormons even label their highest priesthood as the Melchizedek priesthood.[/quote]

The Mormons also say I’m (and other Apache) a lost tribe of Israel or some crap.[/quote]

Well, you are a member of a “tribe.” Just not the “Tribe.” Understandable confuddlement. :wink:

(And, yes, still haven’t forgot about your questions. Think Wednesday.)