Do you think Moses, being the gifted general, instituted and produced (best special effects them days) the holy of holies and all the quackery involved with the mystic powers he said was yehova in order to get the mass of hebrews he led out of Egypt, ransack the egyptians, and defeat the unorganized poorly trained peoples they overthrew in the wilderness? I do. The consolidation of hebrews clearly points to the organization of an army and the people to support the cause. I believe the story of wandering because the lord wanted to weed out the bad hebrews and rabble is just a convenient way to explain the hebrews indecision on where to settle or their inability to conquer any faster than 40 years in the desert. Moses and his brother were master planners and so the story is filled with accurate portrayals as well as fantastic fabrications that millions call truth.
What say you? Baruch Hashem (yeah right!!!)
[quote]gorillavanilla wrote:
Do you think Moses, being the gifted general, instituted and produced (best special effects them days) the holy of holies and all the quackery involved with the mystic powers he said was yehova in order to get the mass of hebrews he led out of Egypt, ransack the egyptians, and defeat the unorganized poorly trained peoples they overthrew in the wilderness? I do. The consolidation of hebrews clearly points to the organization of an army and the people to support the cause. I believe the story of wandering because the lord wanted to weed out the bad hebrews and rabble is just a convenient way to explain the hebrews indecision on where to settle or their inability to conquer any faster than 40 years in the desert. Moses and his brother were master planners and so the story is filled with accurate portrayals as well as fantastic fabrications that millions call truth.
What say you? Baruch Hashem (yeah right!!!)[/quote]
lol.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Do you have an example of a woman refusing marriage after being chazaq-ed?
[/quote]
Yes, but they are private matters and I am not at liberty to talk about them.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
JB:
Much like the Soldiers of WW-II are dying in large numbers now…so is the “Old Guard” of Israel. (“Old Guard” is sort of the term I use for the those whom fought in the Pre-Jewish State Underground; survived the Holocaust, but often lost many family and friends; saw the establishment of Israel; and often were Israel’s early leaders whom saw to the establishment of, and security of, Israel). To me, these people were crusty, battle-worn, tough badasses whom saw the establishment of a Dream.
Yitzhak Shamir died today. I consider him one of the “Old Guard”.
- How are these “Old Warrior’s” viewed today; or like American Youth, are they just viewed as people in a History Book by young Israelis?
[/quote]
Well, there not viewed as people in history books because Israel is too small.
I met Yitzhak Shamir the first time in the Ben-Gurion Airpot. Specifically, he was using the urinal next to me. Almost everyone, at some time, has met these people, heard them speak in person, or goes to shul with them.
Benjamin Netanyahu personally greeted my wife when she came to Israel to make aliyah.
There is a certain amount of rose-colored glasses with all these guys. Times were desperate, but then the choices were a lot cleaner and easier to make simply because the path was clear.
Now, the decisions (like withdrawing from a given town because it is too dangerous) are muddy, not necessarily clear choices, and much more easier to dispute.
So, it’s not really fair to make comparisons: different times.
[quote]gorillavanilla wrote:
Do you think Moses, being the gifted general, instituted and produced (best special effects them days) the holy of holies and all the quackery involved with the mystic powers he said was yehova in order to get the mass of hebrews he led out of Egypt[/quote]
How did he make it hail and kill all those cattle? Good trick, that.
I don’t know the count of cattle these days that are killed by hail but I’m sure it’s happened and is not an otherworldly event. Since we are recounting fairy tale events based on what cannot be proven I will assume the trick is not the hail killing cattle but mesmerizing the hordes in to believing that a [(Yud, Yud)] actually had anything to do with the event.
Its as if we don’t even have meteorologist or dopler or satellites or global weather tracking or almost complete understanding of our weather patterns explained in detail. Science explains natural events these days that 3500 or more years ago would definitely have been considered the hand of some deity. What will the bible have to say when organisms on another planet are identified? Oh I know god meant it to be that way.
Believe it or not I respect that you want to believe. Here’s the rub, I want every religion to admit that the answers are not known and that faith is okay for those that have it but leave people to come to their own conclusions. The answer is to live and love and fight and beyond that one does not need another answer.
Isreal be Isreal, and Rome be Rome, and Zen be Zen, and Islam-whatever, but everybody stop condemning everybody else and claiming to be special and different. My blood is red and so is the red blood of every human on this earth.
Judaism is a religion and not a race so why do so many jews act as if they belong to one people(race) and repulse others for their beliefs or race? Instead of teaching my child that she is something I will teach my child to think and become the person whom exists inside.
Peace!
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Do you have an example of a woman refusing marriage after being chazaq-ed?
[/quote]
Yes, but they are private matters and I am not at liberty to talk about them.[/quote]
All right Mr. Jokes, an example from the time of the OT, if you have it.
[quote]gorillavanilla wrote:
I don’t know the count of cattle these days that are killed by hail but I’m sure it’s happened and is not an otherworldly event. Since we are recounting fairy tale events based on what cannot be proven I will assume the trick is not the hail killing cattle but mesmerizing the hordes in to believing that a [(Yud, Yud)] actually had anything to do with the event.
Its as if we don’t even have meteorologist or dopler or satellites or global weather tracking or almost complete understanding of our weather patterns explained in detail. Science explains natural events these days that 3500 or more years ago would definitely have been considered the hand of some deity. What will the bible have to say when organisms on another planet are identified? Oh I know god meant it to be that way.
Believe it or not I respect that you want to believe. Here’s the rub, I want every religion to admit that the answers are not known and that faith is okay for those that have it but leave people to come to their own conclusions. The answer is to live and love and fight and beyond that one does not need another answer.
Isreal be Isreal, and Rome be Rome, and Zen be Zen, and Islam-whatever, but everybody stop condemning everybody else and claiming to be special and different. My blood is red and so is the red blood of every human on this earth.
Judaism is a religion and not a race so why do so many jews act as if they belong to one people(race) and repulse others for their beliefs or race? Instead of teaching my child that she is something I will teach my child to think and become the person whom exists inside.
Peace![/quote]
Summary:
The little brown-eyed Jewish girl in 7th grade wouldn’t go to the prom with Gorrilla and broke his whittle heart.
Then he was too stupid to get into any of the gifted & taleneted classes starting in 8th grade and never saw her or her fellow Jews again, and he’s held a grudge ever since.
[quote]gorillavanilla wrote:
I don’t know the count of cattle these days that are killed by hail but I’m sure it’s happened and is not an otherworldly event. Since we are recounting fairy tale events based on what cannot be proven I will assume the trick is not the hail killing cattle but mesmerizing the hordes in to believing that a [(Yud, Yud)] actually had anything to do with the event.
Its as if we don’t even have meteorologist or dopler or satellites or global weather tracking or almost complete understanding of our weather patterns explained in detail. Science explains natural events these days that 3500 or more years ago would definitely have been considered the hand of some deity. What will the bible have to say when organisms on another planet are identified? Oh I know god meant it to be that way.
Believe it or not I respect that you want to believe. Here’s the rub, I want every religion to admit that the answers are not known and that faith is okay for those that have it but leave people to come to their own conclusions. The answer is to live and love and fight and beyond that one does not need another answer.
Isreal be Isreal, and Rome be Rome, and Zen be Zen, and Islam-whatever, but everybody stop condemning everybody else and claiming to be special and different. My blood is red and so is the red blood of every human on this earth.
Judaism is a religion and not a race so why do so many jews act as if they belong to one people(race) and repulse others for their beliefs or race? Instead of teaching my child that she is something I will teach my child to think and become the person whom exists inside.
Peace![/quote]
Somebody forgot to take their paragraph med’s this morning.
I wonder what regular jackass member created ol’ gorillas profile to irritate the masses.
It’s obvious that the last two intellects are full of all the answers or something much more profound. I’ve said my peace and no one can argue worth the skin on their back except to make childish insults with no basis. Yes, I want to irritate because offending is what is needed when the realm of real knowledge is obfuscated with lies and fabrications.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Do you have an example of a woman refusing marriage after being chazaq-ed?
[/quote]
Yes, but they are private matters and I am not at liberty to talk about them.[/quote]
All right Mr. Jokes, an example from the time of the OT, if you have it.[/quote]
I am uncertain of what humor you are finding.
The Law (and the interpretation of it) remains the same now, as then.
Currently, it is common to voluntarily submit this type of matter to a binding tribunal within the Hasidic community (legally, an arbitration). They continue to follow the law and the cases heard over some thousands of years. In short, what is effectively a dowrey is paid, and the woman declines or accepts the marriage right. In general, this is in the situation where two young folks do what young folks of the opposite sex do when left alone.
If you want ancient examples, you can look directly to the son of David, Ammon who raped his step-sister (or half-sister, can’t recall) Tamar. She asserted her marriage rights, Ammon refused, and Ammon was ultimately put to death for his refusal. (It’s in 2 Samuel.)
[quote]gorillavanilla wrote:
I don’t know the count of cattle these days that are killed by hail but I’m sure it’s happened and is not an otherworldly event. Since we are recounting fairy tale events based on what cannot be proven I will assume the trick is not the hail killing cattle but mesmerizing the hordes in to believing that a [(Yud, Yud)] actually had anything to do with the event.
Its as if we don’t even have meteorologist or dopler or satellites or global weather tracking or almost complete understanding of our weather patterns explained in detail. Science explains natural events these days that 3500 or more years ago would definitely have been considered the hand of some deity. What will the bible have to say when organisms on another planet are identified? Oh I know god meant it to be that way.
Believe it or not I respect that you want to believe. Here’s the rub, I want every religion to admit that the answers are not known and that faith is okay for those that have it but leave people to come to their own conclusions. The answer is to live and love and fight and beyond that one does not need another answer.
Isreal be Isreal, and Rome be Rome, and Zen be Zen, and Islam-whatever, but everybody stop condemning everybody else and claiming to be special and different. My blood is red and so is the red blood of every human on this earth.
Judaism is a religion and not a race so why do so many jews act as if they belong to one people(race) and repulse others for their beliefs or race? Instead of teaching my child that she is something I will teach my child to think and become the person whom exists inside.
Peace![/quote]
I have no idea what you are saying. All I get is you disaree with Judaism and think that Jewish people think they are better. In response:
-
Jewish people do not think they are better. While we are a people, largely genetically descended from one man born circa 3500AD, according to genetic analysis, anyone is free to join the tribe (which is also a religion). As I’ve offered before, I have a flint knife, and my hands don’t shake too bad if you want to join.
-
You disagree with Judaism and think it is false. Well, that’s OK by me, too. You’re not Jewish. I don’t ask or care what you believe or don’t believe. Judaism is not a evangelical religion – we do not seek converts.
Non-Jewish people are free to take their own path, and I wish you well.
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
Summary:
The little brown-eyed Jewish girl in 7th grade wouldn’t go to the prom with Gorrilla and broke his whittle heart.
Then he was too stupid to get into any of the gifted & taleneted classes starting in 8th grade and never saw her or her fellow Jews again, and he’s held a grudge ever since.[/quote]
Sadly, probably true.
I have two questions:
-
Why circumcision for Jews?
-
I am dating a teacher who (I discovered last weekend) is Jewish. Pretty seriously dating, for me. As in she is nice, smart, beautiful, very athletic, tall, and loves my horses and can tolerate my mother. Met her parents last weekend; can’t say they cared for me, although I am a personable guy, Army Vet, college grad, reasonably wealthy (as in I could sit on my ass from here until I die, if I was that kind of guy), but also a business owner and gainfully employed. In fact, they were pretty rude, if not hostile. What should I know about dating Jewish girls?
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
If you want ancient examples, you can look directly to the son of David, Ammon who raped his step-sister (or half-sister, can’t recall) Tamar. She asserted her marriage rights, Ammon refused, and Ammon was ultimately put to death for his refusal. (It’s in 2 Samuel.)[/quote]
What do you mean, “Ammon refused”? If Tamar was asserting her right to not marry her rapist, then what was Ammon refusing?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
If you want ancient examples, you can look directly to the son of David, Ammon who raped his step-sister (or half-sister, can’t recall) Tamar. She asserted her marriage rights, Ammon refused, and Ammon was ultimately put to death for his refusal. (It’s in 2 Samuel.)[/quote]
What do you mean, “Ammon refused”? If Tamar was asserting her right to not marry her rapist, then what was Ammon refusing? [/quote]
She asked for her marriage right, to be married. Amnon refused and was put to death (rather delayed because he was part of the royal family).
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
If you want ancient examples, you can look directly to the son of David, Ammon who raped his step-sister (or half-sister, can’t recall) Tamar. She asserted her marriage rights, Ammon refused, and Ammon was ultimately put to death for his refusal. (It’s in 2 Samuel.)[/quote]
What do you mean, “Ammon refused”? If Tamar was asserting her right to not marry her rapist, then what was Ammon refusing? [/quote]
She asked for her marriage right, to be married. Amnon refused and was put to death (rather delayed because he was part of the royal family). [/quote]
Okay, but I asked for an example of a woman refusing marriage after being chazaq-ed. I want to know if women were really allowed to refuse marriage, or if it was just an “on paper” kind of right, if that.
On a separate note, Tamar must have been one homely broad if Ammon would sooner die than be forced to wake up next to her every mourning. Sort of makes you wonder why he’d want to rape her in the first place.
What are your thoughts on the current backlash on being able to skip military service while being schooled for religious studies?
Would the devout community consider their spiritual leaders as the nation’s true conduit for protection as the ministers of G-D? In other words - a spiritual hedge of protection surrounding Israel.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Okay, but I asked for an example of a woman refusing marriage after being chazaq-ed. I want to know if women were really allowed to refuse marriage, or if it was just an “on paper” kind of right, if that.
Tamar must have been one homely broad if Ammon would sooner die than be forced to wake up next to her every mourning. Sort of makes you wonder why he’d want to rape her in the first place.[/quote]
The fact that you make such a glaring error regarding what Tamar looked like shows you have not bothered to read 2 Samuel or put any effort into this.
I’m not going to spoon feed you, or hunt through the Gemara, etc., for the recorded cases and give you cites unless you make the basic effort to read the documents that are widely availble, online, in English. It’s almost Shabbos, and I am a busy guy.
I’m not going to waste time on a mocker who has no real intention of learning when there are actual, interested, people.
Here are some basic questions for you to answer, to show you are worth teaching:
-
Who was Tamar? Who was her mother? What did she look like?
-
What emotion or tendancy led to Amnon’s sin (or “bad act” if you prefer)?
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How did Amnon trick Tamar?
-
What was David’s fault in all this? What could he have done differently?
-
After the rape, Amnon attempted to send Tamar away. She responded “No, my brother; for this is wrong in sending me away is greater than the other that you did to me.” What did she mean? How is Deuteronomy 22:28 referenced here?
-
Amnon came to a bad end. What was it?
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Does the fact that Amnon was punished confirm the mitzvah burdened him and not Tamar? If so, how?
-
Would Ammon Still have been punished if the mitzvah to marry was Tamar’s and not his? Why? What was his other crime?
Give me good faith answers to these, and I will continue to help you.