Ask Moshe

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
301

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

The Romans, interestingly, were so horrified by the Ammonites that they finished what we Jewish folk started and completely destroyed Carthage and its people.

[/quote]

And as an aside, the Romans were full of it. Much of their historic documentation would be more correctly called propaganda. They said similar things about the Celts and Druids which is now considered completely Bogus. Not that the Ammonites weren’t horrible people, I just cringe every time I see Roman “history”.

302

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

It seems a hypocritical to end the sacrificing of children by slitting the throats of those same children.

[/quote]

It may seem hypocritical, but it’s not. They were a source of terror and horror for generations to themsleves and others. It had to be put to a stop.

I mean, when you get pagan Romans AND ancient Jewish people agreeing something is evil, you pretty much need to take it as a given.

Would I shoot one person to stop the murder of 18 and the serious wounding of 4 plus an unborn child? In a heartbeat. (If you are doing the math, the unwounded was me who was tying my shoe and thus bent behind a seat.)

Would I prefer to rip off the bomb and throw it away harmlessly with mental powers? Sure, but, Jew or not, I’m not Magneto.

Not unless they poised a clear and present danger to myself or others, no.

HaShem does not impose that punishment. He warns that he repurcussions of certain sins reverberate over generations. Child abuse, for example.

Unfortunately, it’s 2000 years of history spanning the late Stone Age/early Bronze Age to the early/mid Iron Age. To not go point-by-point oversimplifies things far too much.

Yes, I disagree. It’s the same. The times have changed; the religion has not.

Well, as I understand it the Temple will probably not be rebuilt until the Mosiach appears and it may or may not be necessary to have offerings at that time, in that peace will reign on the Earth, and all men will turn to G-d.

Let us be lucky enough to have to worry about such problems.

303

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

The Romans, interestingly, were so horrified by the Ammonites that they finished what we Jewish folk started and completely destroyed Carthage and its people.

[/quote]

And as an aside, the Romans were full of it. Much of their historic documentation would be more correctly called propaganda. They said similar things about the Celts and Druids which is now considered completely Bogus. Not that the Ammonites weren’t horrible people, I just cringe every time I see Roman “history”.[/quote]

If you do not trust the Romans (or the accounts in the Torah), you can go look at Tophet, which contains the remains of over 20,000 ritually sacrificed children:

304

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Yes, I disagree. It’s the same. The times have changed; the religion has not.
[/quote]

Okay, you have me a little confused. I was getting the message that things and justifications are much the same as they were. There are societies sacrificing their children in much the same way, but here you seem to admit the differences.

What has changed about the times?

305

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

HaShem does not impose that punishment. He warns that he repurcussions of certain sins reverberate over generations. Child abuse, for example.
[/quote]

Again to reiterate I’m reading out of the old testament, but that isn’t how I read numerous cases. Original sin. Cain’s curse. And later under Moses.

“You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me”

306

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Would I shoot one person to stop the murder of 18 and the serious wounding of 4 plus an unborn child? In a heartbeat. (If you are doing the math, the unwounded was me who was tying my shoe and thus bent behind a seat.)
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that’s just an impasse. I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t murder a 3 year old Hitler.

My heart just plain tells me that’s wrong.

But again, this gets back to my original question. If even the murder of a child can be relatively justified, what absolutes can there really be?

307

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

The Romans, interestingly, were so horrified by the Ammonites that they finished what we Jewish folk started and completely destroyed Carthage and its people.

[/quote]

And as an aside, the Romans were full of it. Much of their historic documentation would be more correctly called propaganda. They said similar things about the Celts and Druids which is now considered completely Bogus. Not that the Ammonites weren’t horrible people, I just cringe every time I see Roman “history”.[/quote]

If you do not trust the Romans (or the accounts in the Torah), you can go look at Tophet, which contains the remains of over 20,000 ritually sacrificed children:

Not doubting you, just taking the opportunity to knock the Romans down a peg.

308

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

HaShem does not impose that punishment. He warns that he repurcussions of certain sins reverberate over generations. Child abuse, for example.
[/quote]

Again to reiterate, I’m reading out of the old testament, but that isn’t how I read numerous cases. Original sin. Cain’s curse. And later under Moses.

“You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me”[/quote]

You’re reading the Torah like a Christian.

There is no “original sin” concept anywhere in Judaism.

You’re also reading a translation that inherantly takes in the Christian concepts.

It’s better to read that “your children will suffer for your sins for 4 generations.”

Think of a woman on crack – her children are affected by her sin, for example, and probably her grandchildren. Generations of opportunity destroyed by the sins of a grandparent.

309

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I wouldn’t murder a 3 year old Hitler.
[/quote]

That’s not a comprable situation.

[quote]
If even the murder of a child can be relatively justified, what absolutes can there really be?[/quote]

Shooting a child who is about to murder 18 and commit suicide is not “murder.”
Protection of the life of others is ample reason to take a life, even of someone not in his or her right mind.

310

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
You’re reading the Torah like a Christian.

[/quote]

HAH. I’m not sure how to take that.

By original sin, I just meant the curse of men and women and casting out of the garden. They aren’t cursed in the Jewish versions of Genesis?

I had kind of always thought they were the same books. What is a non-christianized version? I guess I should actually go and get a torah.

311

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
What has changed about the times?[/quote]

Well, it’s not the bronze age, to start.

312

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

By original sin, I just meant the curse of men and women and casting out of the garden. They aren’t cursed in the Jewish versions of Genesis?

[/quote]

“Original sin” is a Christian teaching that the sin of Adam was transferred to all future generations.

Jews agree that Adam sinned (and was cast out of the GOE), but Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam’s sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.

[quote]

I had kind of always thought they were the same books. What is a non-christianized version? I guess I should actually go and get a torah.[/quote]

Well they are the same books, theoretically. But a translation is a translation.

JPS puts out what I understand to be the best English translation of the Tanakah.

313

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I wouldn’t murder a 3 year old Hitler.
[/quote]

That’s not a comprable situation.

[quote]
It can be in the hypothetical situation that you know and see the danger as clearly as the bomb child. which would be true in an omnipotent god or divine revelation situation.[/quote]

[quote]
If even the murder of a child can be relatively justified, what absolutes can there really be?[/quote]

Shooting a child who is about to murder 18 and commit suicide is not “murder.”
Protection of the life of others is ample reason to take a life, even of someone not in his or her right mind.[/quote]

It isn’t the right mind, it’s culpability. A drunk person is still responsible for themselves, a child is not.

I’m hung up on Dune imagery in this argument. I’m reading through the series right now. Not sure if you are familiar with it, but there is a really powerful guy with prescience who wages a jihad sterilizing and wiping out worlds in an attempt to save humanity because he can see the alternatives that are worse.

I’m going to end this line of questioning though. I cannot walk far enough in your shoes to feel like anything but a prick with what I’ve already said. My apologies.

314

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
What has changed about the times?[/quote]

Well, it’s not the bronze age, to start.
[/quote]

But the use of steel didn’t change Jewish practice…

What changes were responsible for the shift in the way Israel/Judaism/Jewish people interact with the world?

315

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
What has changed about the times?[/quote]

Well, it’s not the bronze age, to start.
[/quote]

But the use of steel didn’t change Jewish practice…

What changes were responsible for the shift in the way Israel/Judaism/Jewish people interact with the world?[/quote]

I’m not sure I understand the question.

Do the laws of physics change now that we know how to crack the atom? Or are the laws of physics just as they were, but we now can do something about it?

Like the laws of physics, the Torah has not changed, but the world around us has, so interactions are different.

316

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
What has changed about the times?[/quote]

Well, it’s not the bronze age, to start.
[/quote]

But the use of steel didn’t change Jewish practice…

What changes were responsible for the shift in the way Israel/Judaism/Jewish people interact with the world?[/quote]

I’m not sure I understand the question.

Do the laws of physics change now that we know how to crack the atom? Or are the laws of physics just as they were, but we now can do something about it?

Like the laws of physics, the Torah has not changed, but the world around us has, so interactions are different.[/quote]

I’m trying to figure out how to explain better without just repeating myself.

“but the world around us has, so interactions are different.” ← I understand this. What I don’t get are the specifics of what changed in the world that resulted in those changes in interaction. Technology? Communication? Warfare? Weapons? Politics? Skepticism? Education?

317

I’m headed home, but just wanted to thank you for humoring me. I know more about the world today than I did yesterday. Your efforts in educating the gentile masses are much appreciated.

318

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
It isn’t the right mind, it’s culpability. A drunk person is still responsible for themselves, a child is not.
[/quote]

It’s not about punishment. I agree that the child who murdered my wife was a victim of his family. I’ve prayed for him often.

It’s about saving life and a clear and present danger.

Sometimes innocents are going to get hurt in this world due to the actions of others.

The only the we can do about this is go after the puppetmasters to save the next innocent child.

++++++++++++++

There was a story my mother used to tell me about a golum (like a wooden/clay robot) that went awry. He was in the village throwing all the children off the bridge into the river.

All the men in the village were busy in the river swiming to save the children.

One man, the son of the Rabbi, walked off from the river. He was the best swimmer in the village. The women were screaming at him to come back and save the children. Instead, he went to the blacksmith shop to get the hammer and tongs.

He marched up the bank of the river, past his own wife screaming for him to save his own son who was in the river.

Imstead, he ran to the golum and knocked off his head, saving hundreds of children remaining in the village.

In the happy ending version, his son was miraculously saved by holding onto the head of the golum. In my dad’s version, his son died.

But the point of the story is this: sometimes you have to walk past things and let harm occur to get to the root of the problem.

We live in a broken world and have the obligation to repair it.

319

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

“but the world around us has, so interactions are different.” ← I understand this. What I don’t get are the specifics of what changed in the world that resulted in those changes in interaction. Technology? Communication? Warfare? Weapons? Politics? Skepticism? Education?
[/quote]

Yes! All of that. The rules are the same, but the pieces are different.

320

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
It isn’t the right mind, it’s culpability. A drunk person is still responsible for themselves, a child is not.
[/quote]

It’s not about punishment. I agree that the child who murdered my wife was a victim of his family. I’ve prayed for him often.

It’s about saving life and a clear and present danger.

Sometimes innocents are going to get hurt in this world due to the actions of others.

The only the we can do about this is go after the puppetmasters to save the next innocent child.

++++++++++++++

There was a story my mother used to tell me about a golum (like a wooden/clay robot) that went awry. He was in the village throwing all the children off the bridge into the river.

All the men in the village were busy in the river swiming to save the children.

One man, the son of the Rabbi, walked off from the river. He was the best swimmer in the village. The women were screaming at him to come back and save the children. Instead, he went to the blacksmith shop to get the hammer and tongs.

He marched up the bank of the river, past his own wife screaming for him to save his own son who was in the river.

Imstead, he ran to the golum and knocked off his head, saving hundreds of children remaining in the village.

In the happy ending version, his son was miraculously saved by holding onto the head of the golum. In my dad’s version, his son died.

But the point of the story is this: sometimes you have to walk past things and let harm occur to get to the root of the problem.

We live in a broken world and have the obligation to repair it.[/quote]

lol, like a true Christian I read that story as supporting my stance. Just depends on what you are considering the golum. The hero allows harm to his own.

You are so open and matter of fact with such powerful parts of your life, in discussions with you I lose sight of my own inexperience and weakness. I end up discussing it as a hypothetical. I’ll live some more life and get back to you.