Arrested For Not Showing License

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]tedro wrote:
So chasing somebody out the door, through a parking lot, and holding their car door open isn’t an abuse of perceived authority and a power trip?

rainjack wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:
And then again, maybe they are just a bunch of panty-waisted morons that like to make mountains out of molehills.

You know, all the employee and manager had to do was say “ok, have a nice day” and none of this would have happened either.

[/quote]

It’s their property. Their ball, their rules.

If they suspect you might be carting something out that you didn’t pay for, it is their responsibility to make sure that is not the case. Could they be wrong? Yep. Is that a viloation of your rights? Not at all.

If you don’t want your receipt checked - don’t go to that store.

How hard is that?

142

Its a very interesting contrast of ideas between this thread and “Bush:New Orleans and Iraq” thread as far as how people(particularly in the U.S) view moral obligation,values, and rights. Seriously makes me think about what it means to be a “unified” country. Just thought I’d toss that in.

143

[quote]rainjack wrote:
It’s their property. Their ball, their rules.
[/quote]

Where did this idea come from that one loses all their rights on private property? How about I post a sign that says I can shoot all shoplifters on sight, or smack everybody that asks a stupid question upside the head. No big deal, my property, my rules. If they don’t like it they can shop somewhere else, right?

No, it’s their responsibility to make sure that IS the case, only then can they legally detain you.

Is it a violation of your rights for them to accuse you of stealing? No. Is it a violation for them to search you before you leave and then detain you for refusing the search? Absolutely, unless they have probable cause.

The problem is these receipt checks are becoming more and more common, and they are an infringement of rights. See “Slippery Slope Theory”, or if that’s too difficult, just reread Johnnyblaze’s frog analogy. Throw in the fact that Walmart is the only large retailer within 30 minutes of me, and choices are pretty limited.

To bring up another point, what can the employees do if the receipt doesn’t match the contents? I’ll let you think about that for a while before I respond.

144

[quote]tedro wrote:
rainjack wrote:
It’s their property. Their ball, their rules.

Where did this idea come from that one loses all their rights on private property? How about I post a sign that says I can shoot all shoplifters on sight, or smack everybody that asks a stupid question upside the head. No big deal, my property, my rules. If they don’t like it they can shop somewhere else, right?[/quote]

That’s absolutely right. I’d stop short of the shooting. If you don’t like the rules, don’t shop at the store.

Ever seen the “Soup Nazi” episode of Seinfeld?

[quote]If they suspect you might be carting something out that you didn’t pay for, it is their responsibility to make sure that is not the case.

No, it’s their responsibility to make sure that IS the case, only then can they legally detain you.[/quote]

Cite the law that states this.

[quote] Could they be wrong? Yep. Is that a viloation of your rights? Not at all.

Is it a violation of your rights for them to accuse you of stealing? No. Is it a violation for them to search you before you leave and then detain you for refusing the search? Absolutely, unless they have probable cause.[/quote]

Once again - please cite the law you think applies to this. No one was searched, which seems to escape all you rebels out their.

[quote]If you don’t want your receipt checked - don’t go to that store.

How hard is that?

The problem is these receipt checks are becoming more and more common, and they are an infringement of rights. See “Slippery Slope Theory”, or if that’s too difficult, just reread Johnnyblaze’s frog analogy. Throw in the fact that Walmart is the only large retailer within 30 minutes of me, and choices are pretty limited.

To bring up another point, what can the employees do if the receipt doesn’t match the contents? I’ll let you think about that for a while before I respond.[/quote]

SO you need to be a rebel because Wal-Mart is the only store you can go to? I live over an hour from any store, big or small but that does not mean I can make up my own bill of rights.

Please cite the law that protects you from being asked to show your receipt on private property. You have no right to enter the store property. You are allowed to enter the property.

If the receipt doesn’t match - the stolen property is removed from the possession of the would-be thief, and he is banned from the store for life. Now that is if the merchandise is recovered INSIDE the store.

Outside the store, the thief is detained until law enforcement arrives to arrest him.

If a snot-nosed whelp like you were to show up at my store and pull this rebel bullshit, you would be banned from the store, and any future attempt to enter my property would be met with trespassing charges. That is my right as a property owner, and there is nothing you can do about that.

private property rights are a bitch, huh?

How about you and the panty-waist brigade set up a protest on the Circuit City parking lot? How long would that last? And you would probably bitch about not being able to exercise your right to assemble.

145

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Ever seen the “Soup Nazi” episode of Seinfeld?
[/quote]

The “Soup Nazi” refuses service and shouts at customers. Nothing wrong with that. You can ask anybody to leave your property and you’ll be within your rights.

That’s absolutely not the same thing as detaining a person and demanding to search their pockets without a shred of evidence that the guy stole anything.

146

[quote]tedro wrote:
rainjack wrote:
It’s their property. Their ball, their rules.

Where did this idea come from that one loses all their rights on private property? How about I post a sign that says I can shoot all shoplifters on sight, or smack everybody that asks a stupid question upside the head. No big deal, my property, my rules. If they don’t like it they can shop somewhere else, right?
…[/quote]

You and others keep setting up these strawman arguments. The shopper does not lose all rights. No one claims he does. He merely has to prove purchase of the item. If he does not and he is supected of theft the store has the right to detain him until police arrive. They do not have the right to assault him.

147

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Ever seen the “Soup Nazi” episode of Seinfeld?

The “Soup Nazi” refuses service and shouts at customers. Nothing wrong with that. You can ask anybody to leave your property and you’ll be within your rights.

That’s absolutely not the same thing as detaining a person and demanding to search their pockets without a shred of evidence that the guy stole anything.[/quote]

You don’t need evidence. If you did, there would be tons of lawsuits being filed.

Private property. Deal with it.

Please cite the law that prohibits a property owner from asking to see a receipt.

Short of that, shut the fuck up, and go back to building IED’s.

148

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Ever seen the “Soup Nazi” episode of Seinfeld?

The “Soup Nazi” refuses service and shouts at customers. Nothing wrong with that. You can ask anybody to leave your property and you’ll be within your rights.

That’s absolutely not the same thing as detaining a person and demanding to search their pockets without a shred of evidence that the guy stole anything.[/quote]

Who demanded to search pockets? The store asked the shopper show a receipt of purchase. His refusal to do so gave them probable cause to suspect he was stealing.

Evidence is not required to initiate action merely reasonable probable cause. Evidence is required to convict someone of a crime.

149

[quote]rainjack wrote:

SO you need to be a rebel because Wal-Mart is the only store you can go to? I live over an hour from any store, big or small but that does not mean I can make up my own bill of rights.

Please cite the law that protects you from being asked to show your receipt on private property. You have no right to enter the store property. You are allowed to enter the property.

If the receipt doesn’t match - the stolen property is removed from the possession of the would-be thief, and he is banned from the store for life. Now that is if the merchandise is recovered INSIDE the store.

Outside the store, the thief is detained until law enforcement arrives to arrest him.

[/quote]

If you read my first post I did say the store has the right to refuse service to anyone they choose, so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with that.

As for the receipt that doesn’t match, how do you know the item was stolen? Is there not a significant chance the cashier misscanned something. Again, this is not probable cause of shoplifting and the store cannot detain somebody just because the receipt doesn’t match. All they can do is reclaim the item and ask the customer if they want to pay for it, unless of course he was actually seen stealing it.

Most of these receipt checks are actually to protect the company against dishonest or just plain dumb casheirs.

Here are a few links:
Security Expert:

Kansas (my state) statute for officer detaining a person:
http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-statutes/getStatuteFile.do?number=/12-4211.html
‘c’ and ‘d’ are pertinent

Kansas statute one criminal restraint:
http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-statutes/getStatuteFile.do?number=/21-3424.html
C pertains to merchants.

Chris McGoey again, this time on bag checking:

Note the repeated use of the word ‘voluntary’.

150

[quote]rainjack wrote:
You don’t need evidence. If you did, there would be tons of lawsuits being filed.

Private property. Deal with it.

Please cite the law that prohibits a property owner from asking to see a receipt.

Short of that, shut the fuck up, and go back to building IED’s. [/quote]

Nobody said they can’t ask to see a receipt. They can ask, and I can decline. Are you even reading the posts? Or just spouting off ridiculous insults?

151

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Please cite the law that prohibits a property owner from asking to see a receipt. [/quote]

Nothing prohibits the store from asking to see a receipt, and nothing forces the customer to show it either. In France, it’s common knowledge. I’m amazed at the ignorance of some Americans.

Anyway, unless the store had a sign at the entrance or before the cashiers that stated the “store’s policy”, it’s never ever going to hold in court. Of course, if you got a membership in the store, you probably signed something up which mentioned that, but in this case Michael wasn’t a member.

On a side note, this blog is worth checking out.

152

[quote]tedro wrote:
I fail to see how Righi is an asshole for not giving in to the power trip of the store manager.[/quote]

To me, the assholy part is not his arguing with the manager; it’s escalating the whole thing to the point where he gets arrested, while his kids are crying their heads off in the car.

I can see doing something like that if he’d been ask to strip and spread’em, but over showing a receipt? If I’m going to get arrested in front of my family, I’m at least going to do so over a real issue, not this kind of “principled” stupidity.

153

In advance, I apologize that I did not have time to read all of the posts under this thread. Maybe what I am going to say has been said already.

While it varies from state to state(in mine, you would have to produce some form of ID if you had any on you), generally speaking, it is not a good idea to resist a law enforcement officer’s request for ID at the scene of an incident. Sounds like the store guys may have been way overzealous, but this happens quite often and then they call us to deal with their mess.

Therefore, I need to know who I am dealing with at least. I’m sorry, but your word about your name and date of birth really isn’t good enough. You probably won’t be surprised that I have dealt with some very nasty characters who have tried to misrepresent themselves to me to avoid me finding out who they really are. This is the problem we have with illegal immigrants all the time. There is no way of knowing who they are.

I try to be respectful of the person I am requesting ID from. Much of it comes down to the individual officer’s handling.

I know a lot of guys scream about a police state and Nazism and all sorts of things, but lets be honest, this is quite a stretch in these types of circumstances. If you allow yourself to use an ounce of common sense, you will realize that most people who decline to identify themselves have a reason for doing so. Why would you subject yourself to heightened suspicion and scrutiny if you have done nothing wrong? I certainly wouldn’t.

154

[quote]tedro wrote:
rainjack wrote:

SO you need to be a rebel because Wal-Mart is the only store you can go to? I live over an hour from any store, big or small but that does not mean I can make up my own bill of rights.

Please cite the law that protects you from being asked to show your receipt on private property. You have no right to enter the store property. You are allowed to enter the property.

If the receipt doesn’t match - the stolen property is removed from the possession of the would-be thief, and he is banned from the store for life. Now that is if the merchandise is recovered INSIDE the store.

Outside the store, the thief is detained until law enforcement arrives to arrest him.

If you read my first post I did say the store has the right to refuse service to anyone they choose, so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with that.

As for the receipt that doesn’t match, how do you know the item was stolen? Is there not a significant chance the cashier misscanned something. Again, this is not probable cause of shoplifting and the store cannot detain somebody just because the receipt doesn’t match. All they can do is reclaim the item and ask the customer if they want to pay for it, unless of course he was actually seen stealing it.

Most of these receipt checks are actually to protect the company against dishonest or just plain dumb casheirs.

Here are a few links:
Security Expert:

Kansas (my state) statute for officer detaining a person:
http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-statutes/getStatuteFile.do?number=/12-4211.html
‘c’ and ‘d’ are pertinent

Kansas statute one criminal restraint:
http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-statutes/getStatuteFile.do?number=/21-3424.html
C pertains to merchants.

Chris McGoey again, this time on bag checking:

Note the repeated use of the word ‘voluntary’.
[/quote]

I ask for specific laws, and you give me suggested ideas, and one law pertaining to LE.

Try again, or follow the advice a I gave lixy.

You guys on the shortside of the stick need to give up. You haven’t proved anything other than you think you have rights that don’t exist.

155

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Please cite the law that prohibits a property owner from asking to see a receipt.

Nothing prohibits the store from asking to see a receipt, and nothing forces the customer to show it either. In France, it’s common knowledge. I’m amazed at the ignorance of some Americans.

Anyway, unless the store had a sign at the entrance or before the cashiers that stated the “store’s policy”, it’s never ever going to hold in court. Of course, if you got a membership in the store, you probably signed something up which mentioned that, but in this case Michael wasn’t a member.

On a side note, this blog is worth checking out.

I guess you are out of IED’s, huh?

you are a fucking clueless moron.

156

[quote]JD430 wrote:
Why would you subject yourself to heightened suspicion and scrutiny if you have done nothing wrong? [/quote]

Because you can, because you don’t want a de facto abolishment of your rights, and because a lot of cops abuse their position.

That said, we’re now debating the store’s unlawful imprisonment of the customer. Like many people pointed out, the cop case is quite tricky in these Patriot Act times and the laws change from place to another. The right of a customer to refuse receipt checking however, is universally accepted and a couple of morons are still trying to argue against it.

157

[quote]lixy wrote:
The right of a customer to refuse receipt checking however, is universally accepted and a couple of morons are still trying to argue against it.[/quote]

In your opinion, how should a store proceed when they suspect a customer might have stolen something by putting it in his bag and he refuse to submit to receipt verification?

158

[quote]lixy wrote:
JD430 wrote:
Why would you subject yourself to heightened suspicion and scrutiny if you have done nothing wrong?

Because you can, because you don’t want a de facto abolishment of your rights, and because a lot of cops abuse their position.

That said, we’re now debating the store’s unlawful imprisonment of the customer. Like many people pointed out, the cop case is quite tricky in these Patriot Act times and the laws change from place to another. The right of a customer to refuse receipt checking however, is universally accepted and a couple of morons are still trying to argue against it.[/quote]

What unlawful imprisonment? Standing in front of a car door?

159

[quote]lixy wrote:
Nothing prohibits the store from asking to see a receipt, and nothing forces the customer to show it either. In France, it’s common knowledge. I’m amazed at the ignorance of some Americans.
[/quote]

Lixy: French law is not United States law. French jurisprudence is not United States’ jurisprudence. The French constitution is not the US Constitution. I just don’t understand why you keep appealing to European understanding of rights and law.

160

[quote]pookie wrote:
In your opinion, how should a store proceed when they suspect a customer might have stolen something by putting it in his bag and he refuse to submit to receipt verification? [/quote]

If they got proof that you stole something, they could call the cops and throw the thief in jail for all I care. However, the store cannot on a “hunch”. It’s all about probable cause and it’s codified in law books. A hunch isn’t probable cause to check a receipt. If they’re doing it systematically, that’s another story, and the store might get away with it in court. But in this particular right, the customer has every right to decline submitting to a search.

I’m repeating myself here, but if the employee with such an issue before or had been properly trained, he would have let the guy go. I have no problems with showing my receipt at stores when asked politely and with a smile. Otherwise, if I feel like the employee is mistaking people’s voluntary cooperation for some “store’s right”, I remind him of what’s what and walk out.