Here’s another you can read after that. Let me know when you’re done with those.
The role of estradiol in male reproductive function - PMC.
If you don’t like to read and want a video explaining ALL the studies on the subject, just watch this one single video:
Now you can provide YOUR evidence.
This study has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
From a clinical perspective, the current evidence supports the use of testosterone as the treatment of choice in male hypogonadism, rather than aromatase inhibitors (which raise testosterone and lower E2), selective androgen receptor modulators and selective estrogen receptor modulators (with insufficiently understood tissue-specific estrogenic effects).
From Gynecomastia: Etiology, Diagnosis, and Treatment - Endotext - NCBI Bookshelf
Parallel to female breast development, estrogen, GH, and IGF-1 are required for breast growth in males. Since a balance exists between estrogen and androgens in males, any disease state or medication that can increase circulating estrogen or decrease circulating androgen, causing an elevation in the estrogen to androgen ratio, can induce gynecomastia.
I’m not going to spend all day trading links. My claim is not controversial.
For me with existing gyno, they are MUCH better off using a SERM like Tamoxifen to block any hormonal activity at the breast receptor site instead of blocking aromatase throughout the body. Once it is reduced, if their hormonal profile is optimized, it typically doesn’t return. Never, ever use Arimidex. Not to mention it is toxic!
Again, you as a layman are advising as to the usage of medicines in an absolute manner. This is irresponsible. Tamoxifen is not a free ride.
Exactly! Growth Hormone, IGF-1, and countless other factors are at play here. You first need to be genetically predisposed to get it anyway. Keeping serum levels as stable as possible reduce these issues. Weekly dosing and injection frequency are key to make this happen. You do NOT need an AI. If you’re taking one, you just haven’t found the right protocol for you or you have an underlying condition (liver dysfunction, etc.).
I don’t think we’re having the same discussion.
I’m repeating the exact same thing every single physician on the YouTube channel has explained.
Therefore you shouldn’t be speaking whatsoever because every single word you use is a word you learned from someone else.
Watch any single video I’ve done with any single physician who has appeared, all saying the exact same thing and have demonstrated this in their own practice with their own patients. They all used to use an AI and they have stopped. How about you message them and tell them they are causing harm to their tens of thousands of patients?
But I don’t believe that. Why would I make that claim?
Since a balance exists between estrogen and androgens in males, any disease state or medication that can increase circulating estrogen or decrease circulating androgen, causing an elevation in the estrogen to androgen ratio, can induce gynecomastia.
I never said Tamoxifen is a free ride. However, they HAVE prescribed Tamoxifen to be used TEMPORARILY to reduce onset of gyno. This is shortly stopped once hormonal profile is optimized. Can I provide you with their contact info and you can discuss it straight with them? This is much better course of action than blocking aromatization completely in the body.
This was your original bro-science claim. Nobody is more sensitive to gyno than I am, I can assure you. Vitamins, minerals, herbs, supplements, soy, you name it and my gyno swells up to the size of a golf ball. If I found a way to not need it any more I’ll bet you the keys to my Lincoln Navigator that you don’t need it anymore either with some tweaks to your protocol, just as I have done over 1000 times at this point with every other Tom, Dick, and Harry claiming they have high E2 issues.
I’m saying this with 100% certainty based on the medical literature, on the anecdotal evidence from thousands of guys I’ve spoken to, and first hand info I get from a multitude of physicians doing the same in their practice. There is TOO MUCH evidence here. You’d need to provide something of astonishing importance to change my mind at this point. You’re free to try!
This is not bro-science, Danny. Be serious for a minute. My claim aligns with Cleveland and Mayo.
You are adivising as to the usage of SERMs with real-world health implications in the short/medium term on a highly-trafficked forum read by thousands of people. You’re making claims contrary to the most reputable medical clinics in the world.
I am frankly surprised this sort of thing is allowed here. It’s inadvisable.
So if the physicians who have stated this very same thing in a public forum are allowed, does that mean I’m not allowed to repeat it and refer to said videos?
What are you even talking about? Go look for yourself! Do you need links?
Here’s a good one. Start with this and I’ll send more. Dr. Jordan Grant, a urologist and prescribing physician with TRT patients. Shall I tell him he’s wrong?
Let me know how many more physicians you’d like to hear from:
Link to the evidence he refers to:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Ml3jnxdxpBTc3kKIIpW3KT5CqrwIdjuG
By the way, you have provided NOTHING in regards to evidence other than talking about Mayo Clinic.
Do you have anything? Anything at all? Currently, your credibility is nil. Just sayin’.
Well, enough is enough. I get the idea that you have a weird thing for arguing. I’m not into it.
You should consider being more careful with the claims you’re making.
I’m not doing this with you anymore. You know how to use Google.
So here we go again @Chris_Colucci
This is why this place is frustrating. I make a claim. They say the claim is wrong. I provide studies, evidence, papers, explanations, literature, physicians names. I then ask them for their own evidence to which they reply: “You know how to use Google.”
So I provide a wealth of information to them, but I have to go find THEIR magical research papers that don’t exist by using Google.
This is why bro science runs rampant in this forum. Nobody can ever back up anything they say.
But I’m the asshole lol
You’re making false claims, Danny. I have provided a link to a study and suggested to consider the guidance of Mayo and Cleveland clinic. Here you are claiming I haven’t.
You’re not even an honest debater.
You mean the study you posted that states this?:
“Thus, neither estrogen alone nor estrogen plus progesterone can sustain breast development without other mediators, such as GH and IGF-1”
Why aren’t you taking an anti-GH and and anti-IGF-1 while you’re at it?
Yes, that’s the one. You claimed I haven’t provided any evidence when I have and you know it. It also finds that:
Since a balance exists between estrogen and androgens in males, any disease state or medication that can increase circulating estrogen or decrease circulating androgen, causing an elevation in the estrogen to androgen ratio, can induce gynecomastia.
But since you’ve fixated on the part about IGF-1, let’s address that head-on: the abstract doesn’t qualify the statement and you’re behaving as if it does.
I’m not inclined to debate a man further that doesn’t even treat the debate with honesty.
So I’m being dishonest now. Lol!
I’ll say it once more. Your statement was you are sensitive to E2 issues and they cause gyno which requires an AI.
I have tens of thousands of references who will laugh at that statement. It’s literally, genuinely, sincerely, demonstrably false. If you want to believe it and keep taking your AI, go ahead. It’s toxic. But you must know it is toxic due to your extensive research and can tell me how you mitigate the toxicity.
Take that pill and keep blocking aromatase, by all means. You believe E2 is the cause. There are a TON of factors involved including insulin resistance, thyroid function, liver function, and the list goes on. But keep blocking that E2! That’s the only thing that causes gyno. I’ll wait for my boobs to grow back now that my E2 is six times higher than it used to be.
It’s astonishing that this is even still up for debate at this point. I know you won’t watch the video. I know you won’t look at any of the studies. You won’t look up any of the physicians talking about it, because your confirmation bias compels you to believe a study from Mayo clinic is the be all, end all and you won’t look into this matter any further.
I’ll keep reading up on the subject on a daily basis. I’ll continue to speak to over a dozen physicians on a weekly basis. You can preach the bro science. Actually, you might as well because as soon as we rid the world of bro science I won’t have anything left to say!
Tell you what. Watch that ONE video from Dr. Jordan Grant. Then share your thoughts and I’ll send your comments directly to him and I’ll post his reply here. Fair enough? This way you can eliminate the ‘layman’ from the equation. I can provide the same question to a dozen or so and I’ll post all their replies as well. Cool?