Are all Lives Equal?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:
Interesting responses so far.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”

Does this no longer apply?[/quote]

It was never really true in America, given that slavery was still legal when Independence was declared! [/quote]

All men being created equal, and all men being equal in value are two very different ideas.

I very seriously doubt that Bill Gates would be willing to greet people at
Wal-Mart for $100,000/year; however, most Wal-Mart greeters would be overjoyed to make $50,000/year doing that.[/quote]

A lot of people seem to attach the value of a person to economics. I don’t think that’s the real question.

Let’s play hypothetical. There are two people in front of you one of whom you have to kill or you will be killed. One is a man who makes $50k per year. The other is a billionaire. In this case you receive no benefit from preserving either life, it’s just something you have to do. Who gets to die and why?

22

you don’t have to answer age old philosophical questions to answer this one.

It’s actually rather simple :
the value of [a man] is strictly equal to “not [yours] to decide”.

And since this equation is verified for any instance of [a man] and any instance of [yours], all lives are indeed equal.

23


Value is really determined by supply and demand. Right now there are more humans on our planet than ever before. In 50 or 100 years, there will be so many people that we won’t be able to even feed everyone.

So I would say that human life is not very valuable at all right now, and will continue to decrease in value and in fact become a liability before too long.

The problem is that these population densities are increasing in countries that are not very developed and have limited opportunity for all those damn people. That’s gonna become a pretty big problem before too long as they begin to compete for dwindling resources.

24

[quote]kamui wrote:
you don’t have to answer age old philosophical questions to answer this one.

It’s actually rather simple :
the value of [a man] is strictly equal to “not [yours] to decide”.

And since this equation is verified for any instance of [a man] and any instance of [yours], all lives are indeed equal.

[/quote]

Well, of course I agree. I was just saying that the question is rooted in age old philosophical questions.
I should know, I misread some philosophy on the internet and have hence become an expert.

P.S. can you send me some real Absinth?

25

In terms of EQUALITY, then I dare say there is no comparing an East Indian peasant who can’t even feed himself and who thinks it’s perfectly OK to gang rape a village girl because she likes someone from a different tribe to even an AVERAGE middle class citizen of any developed country.

They are most certainly NOT “equal”… Not even close!

26

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Value is really determined by supply and demand. Right now there are more humans on our planet than ever before. In 50 or 100 years, there will be so many people that we won’t be able to even feed everyone.

So I would say that human life is not very valuable at all right now, and will continue to decrease in value and in fact become a liability before too long.

The problem is that these population densities are increasing in countries that are not very developed and have limited opportunity for all those damn people. That’s gonna become a pretty big problem before too long as they begin to compete for dwindling resources.[/quote]

What’s the average dollar amount a human life is worth?

27

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
NO.

Stupid people who DRAIN resources with out contributing have less value than people who CONTRIBUTE to society in a positive way.

Countries who have populations of religious fanatics with barbaric beliefs and practices are populations of LESS VALUE than those of countries who’s population have civilized beliefs and practices.

[/quote]

Interesting. How do you define civilized beliefs and practices?[/quote]

In broad brush strokes, civilized countries have equal rights between men and women, a stable and mostly consistent judicial system, a non-repressive government and access to higher education for all of it’s citizens. GENERALLY.

28

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:
Interesting responses so far.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”

Does this no longer apply?[/quote]

That only applies to US citizens. Anyone who is not a US citizen is with the terrorists and is therefore an “unlawful enemy combatant” and should be placed in stress positions A and C for two hours prior to water boarding.[/quote]

Exactly. That’s just the US Constitution. Has nothing to do with reality - even in the US.

29

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Value is really determined by supply and demand. Right now there are more humans on our planet than ever before. In 50 or 100 years, there will be so many people that we won’t be able to even feed everyone.

So I would say that human life is not very valuable at all right now, and will continue to decrease in value and in fact become a liability before too long.

The problem is that these population densities are increasing in countries that are not very developed and have limited opportunity for all those damn people. That’s gonna become a pretty big problem before too long as they begin to compete for dwindling resources.[/quote]

What’s the average dollar amount a human life is worth?[/quote]

How should I know? I’m not in the business of selling humans. But I dare say a young nubile attractive 15 year old girl would fetch a better price than a broken down illiterate old man.

Osama Bin Laden’s life was worth BILLIONS, cuz that’s what we spent to take it. Your average criminal? Not so much…

It’s all relative.

30

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Stupid people who DRAIN resources with out contributing have less value than people who CONTRIBUTE to society in a positive way. [/quote]

By your reasoning, human life depends on its social usefulness.

On an internet forum, it’s fine and dandy, as an innocuous display of delusional elitism.

It’s another story when a socialist government proclaims itself the judge, jury and executioner of social usefulness.

gender equality
consistent judicial system
higher education for all

all of these things only exists because, at some point, we decided that “all men are created equal”.
despite all empirical evidences of the contrary.

In other words, and by your own admission : civilized countries are civilized (and as such, superior) because they actively deny the very ideas you’re advocating here…

31

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Stupid people who DRAIN resources with out contributing have less value than people who CONTRIBUTE to society in a positive way. [/quote]

By your reasoning, human life depends on its social usefulness.

On an internet forum, it’s fine and dandy, as an innocuous display of delusional elitism.

It’s another story when a socialist government proclaims itself the judge, jury and executioner of social usefulness.

gender equality
consistent judicial system
higher education for all

all of these things only exists because, at some point, we decided that “all men are created equal”.
despite all empirical evidences of the contrary.

In other words, and by your own admission : civilized countries are civilized (and as such, superior) because they actively deny the very ideas you’re advocating here…
[/quote]

WHOAAAAA, hold on there, cowboy - I’m not ADVOCATING anything. I’m merely OBSERVING what is REAL on planet earth and not what goes on in liberal fantasy land. I can’t speak for ANYONE other than myself and I place my values in this order: my family, myself, my friends, my union brothers, other American citizens, hot chicks I have a chance of fucking, citizens of American allies, people of the world who are NOT religious fanatics, people of the world who can feed themselves with out our assistance, and pretty much everyone else I don’t really give a fuck about.

If a society can pull together and put aside their STUPID human differences and become CIVILIZED, then that society has more VALUE than a society that thinks it’s perfectly fine to stone women to death for <<>>.

I have no problem with a bunch of hateful religious fanatics dying. AT ALL. The world is better off without their hate, stupidity and the pain they bring to others.

32

That’s quite debatable.
Judgement of fact and judgement of value are two different things.
You can safely say that performances and contributions are vastly unequal. That’s is indeed a fact.
But concluding on inequal value is another step, which is hardly a philosophically or politically neutral one.

You put “other American citizens” before “hot chicks” ?
Yes, i’m sure you can’t speak for ANYONE other than yourself :slight_smile:

[quote]If a society can pull together and put aside their STUPID human differences and become CIVILIZED, then that society has more VALUE than a society that thinks it’s perfectly fine to stone women to death for <<>>.

I have no problem with a bunch of hateful religious fanatics dying. AT ALL. The world is better off without their hate, stupidity and the pain they bring to others. [/quote]

I don’t know.
Speaking about killing its own members, i’m afraid that abortions are much more frequent and prevalent than women stonings.

33

[quote]kamui wrote:

That’s quite debatable.
Judgement of fact and judgement of value are two different things.
You can safely say that performances and contributions are vastly unequal. That’s is indeed a fact.
But concluding on inequal value is another step, which is hardly a philosophically or politically neutral one.

You put “other American citizens” before “hot chicks” ?
Yes, i’m sure you can’t speak for ANYONE other than yourself :slight_smile:

[quote]If a society can pull together and put aside their STUPID human differences and become CIVILIZED, then that society has more VALUE than a society that thinks it’s perfectly fine to stone women to death for <<>>.

I have no problem with a bunch of hateful religious fanatics dying. AT ALL. The world is better off without their hate, stupidity and the pain they bring to others. [/quote]

I don’t know.
Speaking about killing its own members, i’m afraid that abortions are much more frequent and prevalent than women stonings.
[/quote]

Learn how to read, dude: I put hot chicks I HAVE A CHANCE OF FUCKING (I hold my personal reproductive value as fairly important) before citizens of American ALLIES. As in, I place AMERICAN CITIZENS before hawt chicks I have a chance of fucking. Hey - at least I’m honest.

And now you want to talk about abortion… What do you say we just find one of the dozen or so abortion threads and post a link? Rather than beat that dead fucking horse AGAIN…

34

all human lives are equal

35

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
all human lives are equal [/quote]

What about human fetuses?

36

[quote]pat wrote:
A lot of people seem to attach the value of a person to economics. I don’t think that’s the real question.

Let’s play hypothetical. There are two people in front of you one of whom you have to kill or you will be killed. One is a man who makes $50k per year. The other is a billionaire. In this case you receive no benefit from preserving either life, it’s just something you have to do. Who gets to die and why?[/quote]

Their lives would both have an equal value that would be less than MINE. Like I said, NOBODY believes all lives are equal. I receive the benefit from preserving my own life. Of course, in that scenario, I am STEALING the life of another.

A better question would probably be something like, how much money would Person A have to give the person closest to you for you to allow Person A to take your life? I dare say that amount would vary for each individual.

Merriam-Webster’s definition of ‘value’:
1

: a fair return or equivalent in goods, services, or money for something exchanged

2

: the monetary worth of something : market price

3

: relative worth, utility, or importance

4

: a numerical quantity that is assigned or is determined by calculation or measurement

5

: the relative duration of a musical note

6

a : relative lightness or darkness of a color : luminosity

b : the relation of one part in a picture to another with respect to lightness and darkness

7

: something (as a principle or quality) intrinsically valuable or desirable <sought material values instead of human values â?? W. H. Jones>
37

Everyone born is equal. It’s ones behavior and acts that makes them less.

38

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Value is really determined by supply and demand. Right now there are more humans on our planet than ever before. In 50 or 100 years, there will be so many people that we won’t be able to even feed everyone.

So I would say that human life is not very valuable at all right now, and will continue to decrease in value and in fact become a liability before too long.

The problem is that these population densities are increasing in countries that are not very developed and have limited opportunity for all those damn people. That’s gonna become a pretty big problem before too long as they begin to compete for dwindling resources.[/quote]

What’s the average dollar amount a human life is worth?[/quote]

http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1808049,00.html

39

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
Of course every human life is equal.

Obviously the American capitalist mindset distorts this and encourages people to believe they are superior on the basis of the inequality they create: everyone is inherently unequal and in debt, and the more you have over someone else the better you are. [/quote]

The American liberal mindset allows for the killing of millions of innocents every year.[/quote]

What innocents are those?

40

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
Of course every human life is equal.

Obviously the American capitalist mindset distorts this and encourages people to believe they are superior on the basis of the inequality they create: everyone is inherently unequal and in debt, and the more you have over someone else the better you are. [/quote]

The American liberal mindset allows for the killing of millions of innocents every year.[/quote]

What innocents are those?
[/quote]

Abortions.