Yes i know.
However the REAL vale tudo has no protection at all.
When kyokushin started it was basically vale tudo.
I wish it still was like that.
[quote]blazindave wrote:
I’m 20.[/quote]
Hmm, well I was thinking if you were young enough you could just join the HS wrestling teacm. Even in college though, sometimes you can find some friendly college students who wouldn’t mind teaching you the ropes. My college wrestling coach even let a beginner wrestler practice in our wrestling room, though he was obviously the last priority on the team.
…still good experience and worth asking about.
[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
MightMaus:
Are you actually serious about the Aikido? It’s fun to watch people play stunt double but I have never seen that BS work in a real fight before.[/quote]
Then you’ve never seen the real thing. I’ve used it and flattened people in bar/street fights. it works best against guys who used to wrestle and come at you in that classic stance trying to rush you and take you down.
[quote]chitown34 wrote:
x2 on the ? after Aikido. I can’t vouch for it’s effectiveness “in the street” but as far as mma and grappling are concerned I think you would be better off with wrestling/judo/bjj. Live sparring against resisting opponents is an integral part of any combat sport, and aikido doesn’t have it.[/quote]
I can’t say about MMA, because my experience is from 5 years of international Kumite in the late 80’s & early 90’s + 10 years of bouncing in some of the worst bars you can imagine in the south. But I can say it does work in street fights and against grapplers if you go to the right school.
Real Aikido schools have long, intense sparring against single and multiple opponents as an integral part of training. 10% of instruction should be introduction to technique and the other 90% should be practice under conditions as “real world” as possible.
The Aikido Dojo I attended in Japan used real weapons, including sharp knives as part of daily sparring. They also eschewed the “Do it in slow motion 20 times, then speed it up” way of teaching and went straight to full on, real world situations as fast as they really happen.
There are Dojos like this in the USA in most cities if you look hard. The YoSieKan sect practices old-school like this.
Here in Montreal most guys bounce between training at Tristar or Gamma.Both schools are as legit as they come but classes are a little more packed these days.
[quote]MightyMaus wrote:
Then you’ve never seen the real thing. I’ve used it and flattened people in bar/street fights. it works best against guys who used to wrestle and come at you in that classic stance trying to rush you and take you down.[/quote]
I don’t think you were defending against a wrestler, or at least a competent one. I’ve gone against several aikido guys (there is a very prominent teacher near my former college), and none of them could do a thing against me.
No intelligent wrestler is going to charge you like a football player. You don’t have to be an aikido expert to know that that will get you dumped on your head if you rush like that.
In fact, probably the last thing that a wrestler would do is dive at you. The move that involves the most momentum in wrestling is probably the double leg, and even there, there should be one step and a slide, with the center of gravity over the hips at all times.
Wrestlers also tend to have excellent balance and awareness of hip positioning.
From my understanding (boxers will have to chime in), an intelligent boxer maintains his center of gravity very well over his hips as well.
Aikido requires a combatant to over-extend himself, to get off balance. Of course, this will work against most attackers because most people don’t have a clue about the position of their bod in space. But against those who even have a mild grasp of what they’re doing, aikido is completely nullified. Even the 4th dan, or whatever he called himself that taught the class admitted this, and admitted that the job of the aikido practitioner is to not let the wrestler get a hold of him.
[quote]blazindave wrote:
I ve been wondering what the hell to add to my kyokushin because my ground work is weak. This sounds like it might actually help me in terms of taking hits to the face and ground work.
http://www.tristargym.com/en/vale-tudo/vale-tudo.html
How do these classes work? Is this the real deal?
Thanks[/quote]
vale tudo just means “anything goes”
its not a fighting style, type, or even philosophy
[quote]Fiction wrote:
blazindave wrote:
I’m 20.
Hmm, well I was thinking if you were young enough you could just join the HS wrestling teacm. Even in college though, sometimes you can find some friendly college students who wouldn’t mind teaching you the ropes. My college wrestling coach even let a beginner wrestler practice in our wrestling room, though he was obviously the last priority on the team.
…still good experience and worth asking about.[/quote]
I have. I’ve emailed a few places.
Basically it’s “if you didn’t start at a young you will be raped in ways you thought impossible”.
Another thing is i want strikes in the wrestling as well, so i decided to go for something more like that.
And i’m not looking for a “philosophy” or whatever, i have that with my kyokushin. I just want experience concerning getting my ass handed to me.
[quote]blazindave wrote:
I have. I’ve emailed a few places.
Basically it’s “if you didn’t start at a young you will be raped in ways you thought impossible”.[/quote]
Well, it’s like anything else…learning when you’re young ingrains it in a way that you can’t get if you start in your 20s. Still, I think you can develop some very good skills at a later age.
Try just going to your old high school. Were you involved in sports? Talk to the athletic director and say that you’ve gotten interested in wrestling and want to practice with the team. Lots of people start in high school, so you’d have a lot of people at your level. You would also have the edge and advance quickly if you actually did everything right and didn’t half ass it like 70% of the beginners in the room do.
Serious dude, if you want to get good at wrestling, go to a wrestling team. I have trained with a fair amount of MMA guys and their takedowns are horrific unless they have a wrestling background or have wrestled with real wrestlers. Most MMA takedowns are overextended and have no power. A decent sprawl should flatten them.
I can understand wanting to train for strikes, but don’t sacrifice learning good wrestling for that.
How about brazilian jiu jutsu (sp)? Would that be a good compromise?
I used to live in germany, so i cant exactly travel the few thousand miles to go to my high school 
If not, then there is a place nearby i could go to but in terms of schedule it’s kind of a problem.
[quote]blazindave wrote:
How about brazilian jiu jutsu (sp)? Would that be a good compromise?
I used to live in germany, so i cant exactly travel the few thousand miles to go to my high school
If not, then there is a place nearby i could go to but in terms of schedule it’s kind of a problem.[/quote]
In my experience, BJJ practitioners are awful at takedowns and suck at balance–so if those are the skills you want to develop, it is not a place I would go. BJJ is great for learning limb positioning–wrestlers have trouble with that…arms and necks get left out and grabbed by a BJJ practitioner.
Judo would be an OK compromise, but the fact that you would be training with a gi the whole time would kind of suck.
Mainly I mentioned wrestling because most high schools have programs, and I would think they would let you in for free if you asked nicely.
Mmm…i think ill just have to make it fit.
So i have:
BJJ, kyokushin, wrestling and vale tudo.
Expect to see me on tv soon
Good stuff, thanks.
Stack jiu-jitsu and wrestling, even if it’s a minimal amount. You will need the wrestling for the takedowns and for the position control, and you will need the BJJ for when someone else gets better position on you (sweeping them, submitting from the bottom). I have seen wrestlers and BJJ practitioners give each other A LOT of problems when they grapple (the way it’s done is that the wrestler tries to pin the grappler, shoulders to the mat for 3 sec, and the grappler tries to submit the wrestler).
Whenever I watch, the wrestler will generally get the takedown and the jiu jitsu artist will immediately close his guard or half-guard (full guard doesn’t count as a pin for the wrestler in this drill). When the former happens, the BJJ’er will do his best to submit (typically a triangle against wrestlers) and the wrestler tries to pass. Half-guard sucks in this drill because you immediately have to whip up and then try to sweep.
Also, about 20% of the time the grappler closes in a tight guillotine on the wrestler, and about 10% of the time he wins with it. That tends to be the golden ticket for BJJ’ers who are getting taken down by wrestlers.
Another thing that happens a lot is when the grappler attains side control, the wrestler, as a creature of habit, will turn and give the grappler his back instead of being pinned (even though in this drill the wrestler cannot be pinned, only submitted) and if its a skilled grappler he will close in a choke.
Try this drill, it’s great and will improve you in both areas. The point is that nowadays you need to learn both to be successful in the cage, or in the streets (chokes).
That’s really cool! Thanks 
[quote]ChenZen wrote:
Here in Montreal most guys bounce between training at Tristar or Gamma.Both schools are as legit as they come but classes are a little more packed these days.
http://www.montrealmartialarts.com/newenglish/mma.html
[/quote]
Which one do you prefer?
I know a place where i can get wrestling lessons and it’s only 90 dollars A YEAR.
It’s inter concordia and i’ve heard some good things about it.
Would it be be a better idea to stick with tristar and do brazilian JJ and vale tudo there and then stay at interconcordia aswell or forget vale tudo and only work on BJJ and wrestling at this Montreal martial arts place.
What’s your experience with them?
[quote]blazindave wrote:
Mmm…i think ill just have to make it fit.
So i have:
BJJ, kyokushin, wrestling and vale tudo.
Expect to see me on tv soon
Good stuff, thanks.[/quote]
You’re doing all of that at the same time? Don’t you have a job? That seems like a lot on your plate.
If I were you, unless you have some absurd amount of free time, focus on on or MAYBE two things at a time. It’s sort of like weight training, you can’t develop power AND muscular endurance at the same time. You’ll end up being very mediocre in both.
Those wrestling course - do you mean they’re at
Concordia University? If not, could you tell me were it is?
Thanx
Like i said both schools have merit…Fabio Holanda is a legit BJJ blackbelt,Jason Chen Trained Under Victor Zilberman, both GSP and David Loiseau have trained at both schools.
I know you’re Trying to make the “right” choices but you’re overthinking everything but you haven’t really defined your goals for all of us…do you wanna compete?..train for self defense?..explore new styles for the sake of it etc.
The best way to start i find is assume you know NOTHING about the ground and work in reverse…before single legs and gogoplatas you have to learn Top and bottom position and sub defense and positioning…
walk before you run…so in that regard BJJ serves you well but so does wrestling(minus sub-defense.lol) so really i suggest go check out the schools and watch or take a class…Like i said both schools have it all but are really cramped these days…
and i’ve never taken Firas Zahabi’s vale tudo class but I’ve heard nothing but good things.It all boils down to goals…time/money…and motivation but at 20 years old dude you can’t make BAD choices…think less train more…check out Club Kozak for Sambo…and H2O ( The HO brothers )for more BJJ/MMA training .
[quote]Fiction wrote:
blazindave wrote:
Mmm…i think ill just have to make it fit.
So i have:
BJJ, kyokushin, wrestling and vale tudo.
Expect to see me on tv soon
Good stuff, thanks.
You’re doing all of that at the same time? Don’t you have a job? That seems like a lot on your plate.
If I were you, unless you have some absurd amount of free time, focus on on or MAYBE two things at a time. It’s sort of like weight training, you can’t develop power AND muscular endurance at the same time. You’ll end up being very mediocre in both.[/quote]
[quote]ChenZen wrote:
Like i said both schools have merit…Fabio Holanda is a legit BJJ blackbelt,Jason Chen Trained Under Victor Zilberman, both GSP and David Loiseau have trained at both schools.
I know you’re Trying to make the “right” choices but you’re overthinking everything but you haven’t really defined your goals for all of us…do you wanna compete?..train for self defense?..explore new styles for the sake of it etc.
The best way to start i find is assume you know NOTHING about the ground and work in reverse…before single legs and gogoplatas you have to learn Top and bottom position and sub defense and positioning…walk before you run…
so in that regard BJJ serves you well but so does wrestling(minus sub-defense.lol) so really i suggest go check out the schools and watch or take a class…Like i said both schools have it all but are really cramped these days…
and i’ve never taken Firas Zahabi’s vale tudo class but I’ve heard nothing but good things.It all boils down to goals…time/money…and motivation but at 20 years old dude you can’t make BAD choices…think less train more…check out Club Kozak for Sambo…and H2O ( The HO brothers )for more BJJ/MMA training .
[/quote]
I don’t really have much free time. I mean i go to university full time but i’m willing to sacrifice “friend time” and shit like that.
I don’t watch tv and i will soon throw the pc out the window and ill have tons of free time (after studying and school and with no stupid distractions).
I know nothing about ground work. There’s nothing to assume, it’s fact. My main sport is kyokushin but i find that the lack of face punches (vale tudo comes in here) and lack of ground work (BJJ and wrestling come in here) don’t allow me to develop fully as a fighting athlete.
If it was the kyokushin of 50 years ago (where it was bare knuckled face punches, etc) then i wouldn’t be here, but i feel it’s a part of me that i really need to work on. Now i do compete but i’m not looking to do it professionally.
I just know ill really enjoy these different combat sports and just needed some advice and pointers and where to look and what to look for.
Now my choice would not be 3 but 2.
Meaning it’s either BJJ and wrestling or vale tudo and BJJ. I am pretty poor and i can’t afford everything
[quote]Styx wrote:
Those wrestling course - do you mean they’re at
Concordia University? If not, could you tell me were it is?
Thanx[/quote]
No, it’s called inter concordia and it’s at centre claude robillard. It’s around jean talon-jarry (metro lines).
It’s 90 bucks for a year per discipline i think ( has boxing, swimming, archery, power lifting, etc).
You can watch vale tudo matches from brazil on rioheroes.com they don’t wear gloves when they fight, but i’m sure they train with them to avoid injury.
other than that, the only reason alot of BJJ guys suck at takedowns is because their schools never ttrain them. but usually, there are people in bjj classes who used to wrestle or take judo, so you can ask those guys to work with them. that’s what i do. ask the coach about working takedowns when you join a school.