Wow! This thread went off into a really crazy direction.
Some of the people on this thread are fucking nuts and if you had grown up in Cairo or Riyadh would have joined Al Qaeda right now and would be bombing school children in Iraq.
Spend more time loving your neighbor and less inciting religious warfare.
[quote]deadlifter405 wrote:
Let’s summarize the issue:
When a Christian finds religion, he goes out and witnesses to Jesus’ love.
When a Muslim finds religion, he goes out and kills the infidels.
Got it?[/quote]
You have to be really, really stupid to believe that. I know, I was once like you, thanks to growing up in xenophobic Oklahoma and listening to bible-thumping idiots the first 20-some-odd-years of my life. Having lived in NYC for the last 2 years in a neighborhood with a large and significant Muslim population (along with large and significant Italian and Irish populations), let me tell you that rank-and-file muslims are like rank-and-file anyone else. I’ve never seen a muslim here try to play “kill the infidel.” They’re normal people, except they don’t drink and they prey a lot. A few weeks ago the big mosque in my neighborhood had a peace walk where they had an open house at the mosque and then walked a mile to another neighborhood where they had another open house at that neighborhood’s Jewish center.
For your own good try and meet some people from different walks of life, because right now you sound like your typical midwestern ignoramus (which I used to be myself- I was such a redneck 2 years ago). Makes you feel really dumb when you realize that people are peole for the most part, regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity etc…
[quote]deadlifter405 wrote:
Let’s summarize the issue:
When a Christian finds religion, he goes out and witnesses to Jesus’ love.
When a Muslim finds religion, he goes out and kills the infidels.
Got it?[/quote]
And your evidence? Would you like to know what happened when I found religion?
What a narrow, closed minded, ignorant thread.
[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
deadlifter405 wrote:
Let’s summarize the issue:
When a Christian finds religion, he goes out and witnesses to Jesus’ love.
When a Muslim finds religion, he goes out and kills the infidels.
Got it?
You have to be really, really stupid to believe that. I know, I was once like you, thanks to growing up in xenophobic Oklahoma and listening to bible-thumping idiots the first 20-some-odd-years of my life. Having lived in NYC for the last 2 years in a neighborhood with a large and significant Muslim population (along with large and significant Italian and Irish populations), let me tell you that rank-and-file muslims are like rank-and-file anyone else. I’ve never seen a muslim here try to play “kill the infidel.” They’re normal people, except they don’t drink and they prey a lot. A few weeks ago the big mosque in my neighborhood had a peace walk where they had an open house at the mosque and then walked a mile to another neighborhood where they had another open house at that neighborhood’s Jewish center.
For your own good try and meet some people from different walks of life, because right now you sound like your typical midwestern ignoramus (which I used to be myself- I was such a redneck 2 years ago). Makes you feel really dumb when you realize that people are peole for the most part, regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity etc…
[/quote]
Why are there so few of posters like you? Good Post.
Looks like I got the results I knew I would get!
So much for oversimplification.
Nice name calling there too!
Let’s try this again, since I basically agree with almost every reasonable statement in this thread.
Christianity is very easily distilled down into “love thy brother as you love yourself”. If every Christian took this to heart correctly, there would be no abortion clinic bombings, or crusades, or stringing blacks from trees, or any of that other obvious non-christian shit going on in the world.
The world is so full of good people that at least 95% of the people would go out of their way to be helpful to anybody else in time of need; and darn pleasant at any other time too. It’s that last 5%(and it might not be that many, there’s just a hard core minority around that fucks up the world for everybody else) that needs to learn to leave everybody else alone.
In the New Testament portion of the Bible, there is nothing that gives license to harm another person; it’s a story of total love and forgiveness.
The Koran however, is more like the Old Testament and in essence “kill the infidel” is in there as a fundamental basis of that religion.
95%+ will be rank and file and the Muslims are a “religion of peace”. It’s the lunatic fringe to be feared. Such as those heads of state who are working feverishly to develop nuclear weapons for the stated goal of “destroying the United States”.
Looks like I got the results I knew I would get!
So much for oversimplification.
Nice name calling there too!
Let’s try this again, since I basically agree with almost every reasonable statement in this thread.
Christianity is very easily distilled down into “love thy brother as you love yourself”. If every Christian took this to heart correctly, there would be no abortion clinic bombings, or crusades, or stringing blacks from trees, or any of that other obvious non-christian shit going on in the world.
The world is so full of good people that at least 95% of the people would go out of their way to be helpful to anybody else in time of need; and darn pleasant at any other time too. It’s that last 5%(and it might not be that many, there’s just a hard core minority around that fucks up the world for everybody else) that needs to learn to leave everybody else alone.
In the New Testament portion of the Bible, there is nothing that gives license to harm another person; it’s a story of total love and forgiveness.
The Koran however, is more like the Old Testament and in essence “kill the infidel” is in there as a fundamental basis of that religion.
95%+ will be rank and file and the Muslims are a “religion of peace”. It’s the lunatic fringe to be feared. Such as those heads of state who are working feverishly to develop nuclear weapons for the stated goal of “destroying the United States”.
[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
You have to be really, really stupid to believe that. I know, I was once like you, thanks to growing up in xenophobic Oklahoma and listening to bible-thumping idiots the first 20-some-odd-years of my life.
[/quote]
I’m glad you don’t live in my state anymore. You certainly are clueless, but I’d expect nothing less from an aggie.
There are no more bible thumpers in Oklahoma than there are any where else. I’ve traveled in various parts of the U.S. and Oklahoman’s are among the nicest people I’ve ever been around.
That’s nice that you lived in the cesspool of New York for two years to figure out that people are people, no matter what religion they follow.
The muslims that you are around may be great people, but there’s a significant amount throughout the world that are acting like savages that need to be dealt with accordingly.
No, you still are. Since you are so “cultured” now, why don’t you just stay in New York.
Dustin
I’ll convert to Islam when they let me eat bacon.
Dustin-
I don’t consider myself “cultured”. I do consider myself an “ex-redneck.” I agree, Oklahomans, on the whole, are nicest people in the world. That doesn’t change the fact that a lot of Oklahomans are ignorant rednecks (which I used to be)/hateful bible-thumping morons. That said, OK is a much nicer place to live than NY (I don’t like the northeast).
By your “aggie” comment, I’m assuming you’re a Sooner. Just wondering, what years did you go to OU?
Good Lord… have any of you ever met any muslims or talked to any of them? You sound more like those people who judge everything on what they hear on the news or what they hear from word of mouth.
Christianity and Islam are both beautiful religions. Its the simple fact that people ignore the basic and core beliefs of their religions and make up crap to feed their political and monetary needs. If you haven’t realised this… clearly you don’t know enough. Have you even ever been to a muslim country? Wake up, look at both sides of the story, look at every single angle, then make an educated, productive opinion. Otherwise stop wasting your time on an internet forum.
[quote]Shoebolt wrote:
Wake up, look at both sides of the story, look at every single angle, then make an educated, productive opinion. Otherwise stop wasting your time on an internet forum.[/quote]
Hear! Hear! Well said, and words to live by. great post.
There is nothing “beautiful” about the Muslim religion. Sorry, any kind of belief system which hates on puppydogs gets an F- in my book.
[quote]deadlifter405 wrote:
In the New Testament portion of the Bible, there is nothing that gives license to harm another person; it’s a story of total love and forgiveness.
The Koran however, is more like the Old Testament and in essence “kill the infidel” is in there as a fundamental basis of that religion.
[/quote]
Well, this is not exactly accurate, but as I doubt you will ever read the Quran to find out for yourself, I won’t press the issue.
However, can you tell me who said this?
[i]
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household."[/i]
(Hint: it was not Muhammad.)
[quote]Shoebolt wrote:
Christianity and Islam are both beautiful religions. [/quote]
True Christianity alone is beautiful. All others are vile religions which teach self-atonement. Islam is vile. But even more vile than Islam is popular mainstream “christianity”, which is NOT Christianity at all but false self-righteous religion masquerading as true Christianity. Popular, false mainstream “christianity” teaches that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception.
Whosever work makes the ultimate difference between salvation and damnation, it is that one’s work that actually atones. True Christianity teaches that it is the work of JESUS CHRIST ALONE that makes the ultimate difference between salvation and damnation. Thus, in true Christianity it is Christ who makes atonement for the sins of His people–NOT everyone without exception. All those for whom Christ died will have their sins atoned for and will spend eternity with Christ. And all those for whom Christ did NOT die will spend eternity enduring His righteous fury and indignation.
Popular “christianity” teaches that it is the work of the SINNER that makes the ultimate difference. Thus, in popular “christianity” it is the sinner who makes atonement for his own self. Those who adhere to the aforementioned popular teaching are woefully ignorant of the righteousness of God, and are thus going about to establish a righteousness of their own (Romans 10:1-4).
[quote]deadlifter405 wrote:
Let’s summarize the issue:
When a Christian finds religion, he goes out and witnesses to Jesus’ love.
When a Muslim finds religion, he goes out and kills the infidels.
Got it?[/quote]
There are, of course, a few exceptions to this absolute statement.
Saint Augustine’s cognite intrare (“lead them in”, i.e. “force them to convert”). Millions were tortured and slaughtered in the name of Christianity during the periods of the Arian, Donatist and Albigensian heresies.
The Crusades. The European armies were saying, as they slaughtered both Christian and Muslim Arabs: “Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset” (“Kill them all, God will know his own.”)
The Ottoman Empire: Expansion and Resistance. Following the fall of Constantinople in 1453, bloody fighting ensued over the remaining territories of what is now Romania and Hungary. One of the most brutally effective captains in this clash of religious armies was Vlad III of Wallachia, who was an exceedingly devout Orthodox Christian. In addition to the 20 to 30 thousand Turkish soldiers he impaled over the course of the war, he murdered just as many if not more of his own countrymen, including women, children and infants. Vlad Tepes (“The Impaler”) is better known today as “Dracula”.
The Spanish Inquisition. Expulsion of the Jews, forced conversion and/or expulsion of Muslim moriscos, and the torture of over 150,000 infidels (including many Protestants), of which between 3 and 5 thousand were burned at the stake.
Europe’s Reformation and 30-Year War. Two thirds of the Christian population of Europe was slaughtered by other Christians, over which flavor of Christianity was the best.
European Colonization of the New World. The Pope sanctioned the conquest, conversion and eventual slaughter of the indigenous population of the Americas, with a death toll over three generations which has been estimated as high as twenty million.
I could go on, but why bother?
Make no mistake: I do not think Islam is blameless by any means. Sultan Mehmed II, conqueror of Constantinople, was a tyrant nearly as cruel and murderous as Dracula. He unleashed his soldiers to burn, pillage, and murder, and to rape every woman and child in the city (atrocities against women and children, by the way, are forbidden by the Quran). And the atrocities occuring in New York, Tel Aviv, and London surely seem to speak for themselves.
Additionaly, it can also be argued that the examples quoted above were perpetrated by men who had departed from Christ’s true teachings, and were using religion as a cover for their own agenda.
Perhaps. None but God can know the hearts of men.
The fact remains, however, that no religion in history can match Christianity for the sheer volume of blood spilled…in Christ’s name.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
deadlifter405 wrote:
In the New Testament portion of the Bible, there is nothing that gives license to harm another person;[…]
Well, this is not exactly accurate, but as I doubt you will ever read the Quran to find out for yourself, I won’t press the issue.
However, can you tell me who said this?
[i]
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household."[/i]
(Hint: it was not Muhammad.)[/quote]
Varqanir-
In Mathew 10:34-36–the verses that you attempt to pervert–Jesus Christ is not advocating the killing of foes with a literal sword. Christ tells His people to love their foes (enemies)–not to kill them. He is not telling Christians to kill their mother or father with a sword. The sword is the sword of variance. It is the sword of division. It is the sword of Christ’s absolute authority. It is the sword of the Gospel that proclaims that Christ and Him crucifed is what makes the ultimate difference between heaven and hell. Every sinner for whom Christ was crucified will go to heaven and every sinner that Christ was NOT crucified for will go to hell. A very simple and easy to understand message–but did I mention that it is VERY offensive to self-righteous religionists? Christ said the following to the self-righteous religionists in His day:
“And He said to them, You are from below; I am from above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.
Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins” (John 8:23-24).
The necessary implications are huge. Jesus is saying here that the majority of the world’s population that dies adhering to their present belief (s) will go to hell (i.e., die in their sins). How many people deny that Jesus is the great “I AM”? Multitudes: Hindus, Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholics, atheists, agnostics, and all those professing “christians” who believe that Jesus died in any sense whatsoever for those who go to hell.
Christ said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now my kingdom is not from here” (John 18:36). It follows from this statement that those who fight to establish some earthly religious kingdom are not of Christ’s kingdom. The servants of Muhammad fight, just as Muhammad did, because his kingdom is of this world. The servants of the papacy fight, just as the popes do, for their kingdom is of this world. The servants (not children) of Abraham fight, just as the Maccabees fought, for their kingdom is of this world. But God the Holy Spirit, writing through Paul, said, “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ” ( 2 Corinthians 10:3-5).
So, contrary to what Varqanir ignorantly asserts, true Christians are commanded to love their foes and not to physically war against them. Their weapons are not carnal–as in a sword made of steel–but mighty in God. The pulling down of strongholds, the casting down of the foolish arguments of unbelievers, etc., are done with the sword of the Gospel. The true Gospel of salvation conditioned exclusively on Christ’s atoning blood and imputed righteousness is the sword that divides.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
deadlifter405 wrote:
Let’s summarize the issue:
When a Christian finds religion, he goes out and witnesses to Jesus’ love.
When a Muslim finds religion, he goes out and kills the infidels.
Got it?
There are, of course, a few exceptions to this absolute statement.
Saint Augustine’s cognite intrare (“lead them in”, i.e. “force them to convert”). Millions were tortured and slaughtered in the name of Christianity during the periods of the Arian, Donatist and Albigensian heresies.
The Crusades. The European armies were saying, as they slaughtered both Christian and Muslim Arabs: “Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset” (“Kill them all, God will know his own.”)
The Ottoman Empire: Expansion and Resistance. Following the fall of Constantinople in 1453, bloody fighting ensued over the remaining territories of what is now Romania and Hungary. One of the most brutally effective captains in this clash of religious armies was Vlad III of Wallachia, who was an exceedingly devout Orthodox Christian. In addition to the 20 to 30 thousand Turkish soldiers he impaled over the course of the war, he murdered just as many if not more of his own countrymen, including women, children and infants. Vlad Tepes (“The Impaler”) is better known today as “Dracula”.
The Spanish Inquisition. Expulsion of the Jews, forced conversion and/or expulsion of Muslim moriscos, and the torture of over 150,000 infidels (including many Protestants), of which between 3 and 5 thousand were burned at the stake.
Europe’s Reformation and 30-Year War. Two thirds of the Christian population of Europe was slaughtered by other Christians, over which flavor of Christianity was the best.
European Colonization of the New World. The Pope sanctioned the conquest, conversion and eventual slaughter of the indigenous population of the Americas, with a death toll over three generations which has been estimated as high as twenty million.
I could go on, but why bother?
Make no mistake: I do not think Islam is blameless by any means. Sultan Mehmed II, conqueror of Constantinople, was a tyrant nearly as cruel and murderous as Dracula. He unleashed his soldiers to burn, pillage, and murder, and to rape every woman and child in the city (atrocities against women and children, by the way, are forbidden by the Quran). And the atrocities occuring in New York, Tel Aviv, and London surely seem to speak for themselves.
Additionaly, it can also be argued that the examples quoted above were perpetrated by men who had departed from Christ’s true teachings, and were using religion as a cover for their own agenda.
Perhaps. None but God can know the hearts of men.
The fact remains, however, that no religion in history can match Christianity for the sheer volume of blood spilled…in Christ’s name.[/quote]
Hello Varqanir-
People like you often say things like, “History is full of atrocities committed by Christians in the name of Christ.” But unless you can prove that these were really Christians in a way that I must accept, that is, according to the Biblical definition, you are just falsely assuming that anyone who claims to be a Christian is really a Christian.
Rather, Biblical teaching vehemently denies that these were true Christians, so that I can just as easily say, “History is full of atrocities committed by non-Christians misusing the name of Christ.”
Just more proof of ignorant people like yourself making arguments against what you think a true Christian is. These people whom you mention above I expect to act that way. I expect them to do those things.
You cite Augustine. Augustine was a damnable heretic. I will also add John Calvin (French theologian) and Martin Luther (German theologian). Both of these men gave nod to the putting to death of men whom they deemed heretics. Neither of these men were true Christians.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
BluePfaltz wrote:
I do not agree with the fundamentalists, but I also think they are far less harmful then the Christian right most times.
Jesus Horatio Hubert Humphrey Fucking Christ, are you really that stupid? That is one the goddamnedest, most ignorant, dimwitted, fucking retarded things I have ever read on this site. And that is saying something. Do you know anything about anything?
I’m not a religious person, but at least my brain functions on its own. Let me help you out, although you sound like either a lost cause or mentally handicapped: Christian fundamentalists have the 700 club, and they like to argue a lot about men boning men. Islamic fundamentalists have Sharia courts, and they cut the heads off of gay guys in the town square. Christian fundamentalists have fiery sermons. Islamic fundamentalists send thousands of innocents to fiery deaths in Tel Aviv, New York, and London. Christian fundamentalists worry about ordaining women as priests. Islamic fundamentalists worry about the best way to pack nails, glass, and ball bearings into bombs to go set off at weddings. Christian fundamentalists fuss about evolution and science in the classroom. Islamic fundamentalists write textbooks saying that Jews are apes and animals, and America is possessed by devils. Christian fundamentalists get together and figure out the best way to win elections to further their agenda. Islamic fundamentalists get together and figure out the best way to murder every single opponent to further their agenda.
Get it?
I hope – for the sake of perspective – you convert and move to the Sudan you goddamned troglodyte ignoramus.
The above should be required reading for all those who compare Christians (even the fundies) to the Islamic Whackjobs. Damn good post!
[/quote]
christian fundamentalists also cut the heads off Muslim school boys in INdonesia. Or do we not count that because it’s not in the west??
[quote]extol7extol wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
deadlifter405 wrote:
In the New Testament portion of the Bible, there is nothing that gives license to harm another person;[…]
Well, this is not exactly accurate, but as I doubt you will ever read the Quran to find out for yourself, I won’t press the issue.
However, can you tell me who said this?
[i]
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household."[/i]
(Hint: it was not Muhammad.)
Varqanir-
In Mathew 10:34-36–the verses that you attempt to pervert–Jesus Christ is not advocating the killing of foes with a literal sword. Christ tells His people to love their foes (enemies)–not to kill them. He is not telling Christians to kill their mother or father with a sword. The sword is the sword of variance. It is the sword of division. It is the sword of Christ’s absolute authority. .[/quote]
his ‘perversion’ of this verse is no less twisted than the way in which the Quran is perverted both on this site ad by ignorant westerners in general on a regular basis.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
deadlifter405 wrote:
Let’s summarize the issue:
When a Christian finds religion, he goes out and witnesses to Jesus’ love.
When a Muslim finds religion, he goes out and kills the infidels.
Got it?
There are, of course, a few exceptions to this absolute statement.
Saint Augustine’s cognite intrare (“lead them in”, i.e. “force them to convert”). Millions were tortured and slaughtered in the name of Christianity during the periods of the Arian, Donatist and Albigensian heresies.
The Crusades. The European armies were saying, as they slaughtered both Christian and Muslim Arabs: “Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset” (“Kill them all, God will know his own.”)
The Ottoman Empire: Expansion and Resistance. Following the fall of Constantinople in 1453, bloody fighting ensued over the remaining territories of what is now Romania and Hungary. One of the most brutally effective captains in this clash of religious armies was Vlad III of Wallachia, who was an exceedingly devout Orthodox Christian. In addition to the 20 to 30 thousand Turkish soldiers he impaled over the course of the war, he murdered just as many if not more of his own countrymen, including women, children and infants. Vlad Tepes (“The Impaler”) is better known today as “Dracula”.
The Spanish Inquisition. Expulsion of the Jews, forced conversion and/or expulsion of Muslim moriscos, and the torture of over 150,000 infidels (including many Protestants), of which between 3 and 5 thousand were burned at the stake.
Europe’s Reformation and 30-Year War. Two thirds of the Christian population of Europe was slaughtered by other Christians, over which flavor of Christianity was the best.
European Colonization of the New World. The Pope sanctioned the conquest, conversion and eventual slaughter of the indigenous population of the Americas, with a death toll over three generations which has been estimated as high as twenty million.
I could go on, but why bother?
Make no mistake: I do not think Islam is blameless by any means. Sultan Mehmed II, conqueror of Constantinople, was a tyrant nearly as cruel and murderous as Dracula. He unleashed his soldiers to burn, pillage, and murder, and to rape every woman and child in the city (atrocities against women and children, by the way, are forbidden by the Quran). And the atrocities occuring in New York, Tel Aviv, and London surely seem to speak for themselves.
Additionaly, it can also be argued that the examples quoted above were perpetrated by men who had departed from Christ’s true teachings, and were using religion as a cover for their own agenda.
Perhaps. None but God can know the hearts of men.
The fact remains, however, that no religion in history can match Christianity for the sheer volume of blood spilled…in Christ’s name.[/quote]
You miss the point.
You are correct that there have been countless terrible crimes perpetrated in Christ’s name by so-called Christians.
Where you go wrong is in misunderstanding the basic tenets of the two religions in question.
Jesus Christ and his followers were not killers, robbers or slavers. Mohammed, and his early followers were. Christ never killed or robbed. Mohammed did.
The essential core of Christ’s message was ‘pacifist.’ The basic bedrock of Islam is ‘war.’
Killing in the name of Christ is clearly abhorrent and a perversion of His teaching. On the other hand, killing in the name of Mohammed is in line with his instructions and following his example.