Anybody But Bush

No, I’m not talking about the Democrats. During the Democratic primaries, people criticized the candidates for taking the same policy positions. There wasn’t enough arguing amongst themselves, for the Republican’s tastes. Democratic voters picked the candidate who seemed to be the best choice, from a group that overlapped on many issues. The stereotype that “Democrats want Anybody But Bush” glosses over the fact that Democrats are in solidarity on many of the issues.

No, when I refer to Anybody But Bush I’m talking about how the president is always willing to pass the buck, and how the Republicans bend over backwards to excuse Bush for his own dismal record!

America lost over one million jobs (net) under Bush’s command! Dubya’s the first president to oversee a net loss of jobs, since Herbert Hoover was president (1928-1932) during the Great Depression!
(But somehow, that has nothing to do with George Bush… it’s “Clinton’s bad economy”! LOL!)

Under Bush we have a record deficit, that will take decades to pay off, after Bush took office with a record surplus!
(That’s not Dubya’s fault! When it came time to veto some spending bills, Dubya couldn’t find a pen!)

Bush is the first president since the EPA was started in the early 70s, who is credited with making the environment worse! Some presidents have been better on the environment than others, but all of them made progress. Bush is the first president to actually make air pollution and water pollution worse!
(That’s not Dubyas fault though! Those wacky environmental groups have taken this clean air thing too far!)

Bush was in charge during the worst-ever attacks on America.
(Had someone told Bush that terrorists were going to attack the World Trade Center with commerical airliners on the morning of September 11th, he would have moved heaven and earth to prevent it!)

Worst ever intelligence failure in our history, regarding WMDs in Iraq, causing us to invade a sovereign nation on false pretenses.
(George Tenet said ‘slam dunk’! The Russians said they thought Iraq had WMD. So did “Agent Curveball”! So don’t blame Dubya!!)

Whenever Dubya bungles his duties as president, he’s always willing to pass the blame off on someone else, or refuse to acknowledge a problem. There’s no responsibility that Dubya can’t shirk! The buck always stops somewhere else!

When it comes to accepting responsibility, it’s Anybody But Bush!

[quote]Lumpy wrote:
No, I’m not talking about the Democrats. During the Democratic primaries, people criticized the candidates for taking the same policy positions. There wasn’t enough arguing amongst themselves, for the Republican’s tastes. Democratic voters picked the candidate who seemed to be the best choice, from a group that overlapped on many issues. The stereotype that “Democrats want Anybody But Bush” glosses over the fact that Democrats are in solidarity on many of the issues.

No, when I refer to Anybody But Bush I’m talking about how the president is always willing to pass the buck, and how the Republicans bend over backwards to excuse Bush for his own dismal record![/quote]

These are kind of amusing, really.

[quote]America lost over one million jobs (net) under Bush’s command! Dubya’s the first president to oversee a net loss of jobs, since Herbert Hoover was president (1928-1932) during the Great Depression!
(But somehow, that has nothing to do with George Bush… it’s “Clinton’s bad economy”! LOL!)[/quote]

Well, let’s look at Clinton’s economy for a moment. He inherited an economy that was growing from Bush Sr. The mini-recession that cost Bush Sr. the presidency (combined with Perot, of course) was over, and the economy was expanding, a full quarter before Clinton took office.

Clinton passed to Bush Jr. a receding economy. The stock bubble burst, and the economy began retraction, before Clinton handed the reins to Bush Jr.

However, even given that, I would like to ask you a question: What do Presidents do to create jobs or lose jobs? Then, more specifically, what did W. do to lose jobs?

[quote]Under Bush we have a record deficit, that will take decades to pay off, after Bush took office with a record surplus!
(That’s not Dubya’s fault! When it came time to veto some spending bills, Dubya couldn’t find a pen!)[/quote]

Agree with you that the federal government is spending too much. Especially on No Child Left Behind and the Prescription Drug Benefit. That was not the sole, or even primary cause of the deficit though. As I have explained to you previously, the economic recession and the burst of the bubble combined to greatly lessen the federal government’s take from capital gains and income taxes.

Also, please explain to me, given the other articles I posted on the deficit, how Kerry would be any different, given his announced economic plans? Kerry’s plan would spend at least as much, if not more, than Bush’s plan.

BTW, I love the allocation of blame here: House passes bill, Senate passes its version, joint version goes to President, and somehow it is the President’s sole responsibility that the spending occurred because he did not veto the bill.

[quote]Bush is the first president since the EPA was started in the early 70s, who is credited with making the environment worse! Some presidents have been better on the environment than others, but all of them made progress. Bush is the first president to actually make air pollution and water pollution worse!
(That’s not Dubyas fault though! Those wacky environmental groups have taken this clean air thing too far!)[/quote]

This isn’t even true, so there’s nothing to rebut.

[quote]Bush was in charge during the worst-ever attacks on America.
(Had someone told Bush that terrorists were going to attack the World Trade Center with commerical airliners on the morning of September 11th, he would have moved heaven and earth to prevent it!)[/quote]

I suppose FDR was responsible for Pearl Harbor? The mere fact Bush was in charge at the time does not infer he was responsible.

[quote]Worst ever intelligence failure in our history, regarding WMDs in Iraq, causing us to invade a sovereign nation on false pretenses.
(George Tenet said ‘slam dunk’! The Russians said they thought Iraq had WMD. So did “Agent Curveball”! So don’t blame Dubya!!)[/quote]

I’m not even going to rehash this, and all the embedded premises, all with you again. I’ll refer you to the innumerable previous threads on which this has been discussed, and remind you that simply repeating something over and over, chanting like a medeval monk, doesn’t make it true.

[quote]Whenever Dubya bungles his duties as president, he’s always willing to pass the blame off on someone else, or refuse to acknowledge a problem. There’s no responsibility that Dubya can’t shirk! The buck always stops somewhere else!

When it comes to accepting responsibility, it’s Anybody But Bush![/quote]

If you could build a convincing case on any of the above, you’d have a point, but simply throwing out allegations and assuming that Bush should “take responsibility” when there isn’t any reason to allocate responsibility to the President.

Why don’t you, instead of tossing out a bunch of general allegations, challenge some of the things the President advocated and pressed, bills he introduced, or actions he took (we’ve done this on Iraq – what about some other things)?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
If you could build a convincing case on any of the above, you’d have a point, but simply throwing out allegations and assuming that Bush should “take responsibility” when there isn’t any reason to allocate responsibility to the President. [/quote]

Thanks for proving my point!

No need to blame the President, he is merely the leader!

I did, but you proved my point by refusing to acknowledge that they were problems, or you passed the buck!

You say that the erosion of environmental protections under Bush aren’t a problem… the majority of environmental experts disagree. Oh sure, you can trot out an expert who will contradict that. So what? You can find an expert to support any ridiculous idea under the sun, even the idea that evolution isn’t a fact, and that we all got here because of a “talking snake”.

With the big spending packages… No Child Left Behind and the Pescription Drug Bill are both Bush boondoggles. First you acknowledge them, then you say I haven’t mentioned anything specific.

You pretty much proved my point for me. After you’ve drank the Bush Kool Aid, you can’t hold George Bush accountable for ANYTHING.

After all, he’s just the president!

Lumpy wrote: “After all, he’s just the president”

May he continue to be strong and steadfast.

Four more years of W. sounds about right to me!!!

Have a great night,

JeffR

lumper,

What is your problem with No Child Left Behind?

Thanks,
me

lumpa,

I’ve pretty much concluded that you aren’t too bright. I don’t think I’ll be wasting much time on you, but I’m hopeful that you don’t have much influence on those that haven’t gotten to know your internet persona.

Take care,

Jack

[quote]biltritewave wrote:
What is your problem with No Child Left Behind?[/quote]

No Child Left Behind is exactly what the Republicans claim they are against: trying to solve a problem by throwing a huge beuracracy and tons of tax dollars at it.

The typical Democratic line is that No Child Left Behind is underfunded, and I believe that is correct. However, in my opinion that is the wrong issue to focus on.

In the news recently, a top academic school recently failed to meet the No Child Left Behind guidelines.

Standardized testing is not how to make schools better. Try reducing class size and improving school infrastructures… some of our schools are literally falling apart.

[quote]Lumpy wrote:
America lost over one million jobs (net) under Bush’s command! Dubya’s the first president to oversee a net loss of jobs, since Herbert Hoover was president (1928-1932) during the Great Depression!
(But somehow, that has nothing to do with George Bush… it’s “Clinton’s bad economy”! LOL!)[/quote]

Okay, who should we believe - Alan Greenspan, who testified to Congress that the current economy and job situation was at no fault of Bush or Lumpy?

One is a brilliant economist who forgot more about money before his morning coffee than any of us will learn in our lives, the other is Lumpy. You decide.

Oh, and by the way Lumpy, if you recognized anything, the economic numbers do not immediately switch upon the changing of the President. It takes time and has 1000 more factors than just who is in the Oval Office. As I mentioned before, in 2000, the markets were extremely overvalued and needed to regress back to the mean. When that happens, there is going to be a slower economy. Add 9/11 and higher energy prices in, and you get what happened.

[quote]Under Bush we have a record deficit, that will take decades to pay off, after Bush took office with a record surplus!
(That’s not Dubya’s fault! When it came time to veto some spending bills, Dubya couldn’t find a pen!)[/quote]

Again, look at the economy. When the economy slows, the overall tax receipts goes down. People spend less, thus a fixed % of a smaller pie returns a smaller piece. Just look at the captial gains receipts and how much they would have changed over a couple of years. Compound this with other taxes, such as income tax, and you’re talking a huge sum.

Also, as BB pointed out, just because one is bad doesn’t mean the other is good. Since nobody could have solved the economic regression to the mean, the question is who would spend more/less. So unless you can show me that Kerry would have spent less than Bush (which he wouldn’t have done), then your argument fails.

[quote]Bush is the first president since the EPA was started in the early 70s, who is credited with making the environment worse! Some presidents have been better on the environment than others, but all of them made progress. Bush is the first president to actually make air pollution and water pollution worse!
(That’s not Dubyas fault though! Those wacky environmental groups have taken this clean air thing too far!)[/quote]

Can I get a citation please? And no, Op-Ed pieces do not count.

[quote]Bush was in charge during the worst-ever attacks on America.
(Had someone told Bush that terrorists were going to attack the World Trade Center with commerical airliners on the morning of September 11th, he would have moved heaven and earth to prevent it!)[/quote]

And they were planned during the Clinton era. And if they would have been successful when they tried to blow them up in the 90’s it would have happened under Clinton.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. - After, therefore because. – It’s an invalid logical argument. Just because something happens after something else or in congruence with something else does not mean that one caused the other to occur.

[quote]Worst ever intelligence failure in our history, regarding WMDs in Iraq, causing us to invade a sovereign nation on false pretenses.
(George Tenet said ‘slam dunk’! The Russians said they thought Iraq had WMD. So did “Agent Curveball”! So don’t blame Dubya!!)[/quote]

So, who are we going to believe - A bi-partisan Congressional Commission set out to study the situation or Lumpy?

The reports on this clearly demonstrate that Bush was told that it was a “slam-dunk” case for WMD. Saying that he lied or was responsible for the failure would be like saying that it was Congress’s fault since they heard the same information as well.

[quote]Whenever Dubya bungles his duties as president, he’s always willing to pass the blame off on someone else, or refuse to acknowledge a problem. There’s no responsibility that Dubya can’t shirk! The buck always stops somewhere else!

When it comes to accepting responsibility, it’s Anybody But Bush![/quote]

Lumpy - Again, think about things, address the valid points, use truth and not suggestions, and don’t try to justify your preconceived notions with unsubstantiated suggestions and insinuations.

Cory089
You make my point… people who are pro-Bush can’t seem to hold him accountable for anything!

We could argue endlessly over the points… for example the deficit is mainly a result of loss of revenue from Bush’s tax cuts on the wealthy elite, in my opinion… but the main idea here is that Bush supporters give him a Free Pass on basically every issue. (When I refer to Bush, aI also refer to his administration too).

Bush won’t take responsibility for anything. And he won’t hold anyone else accountable for their failures. And Bush’s hard core supporters refuse to find any fault with him.

Today the commission on Abu Ghraib (that Rumsfeld created) reported that the responsibilty for prisoner abuse goes all the way up the chain of command, to the suits in the Pentagon. Rumsfeld’s head should have already rolled several times over, not just for Abu Ghraib but for saying invading Iraq would be a “cake walk” and consistently underestimating the costs and time needed and troops needed to accomplish the mission.

Can you imagine George Bush trying to fire Donald Rumsfeld? Rummy would probably laugh, and put Dubya in a Full Nelson and make him cry “uncle”.

[quote]
Cory089 wrote:
(on environmental issues)
Can I get a citation please? And no, Op-Ed pieces do not count. [/quote]

http://www.sierraclub.org/bush/
Very entertaining way to learn about how Bush has gutted environmental protection, for the benefit of big businesses who are major campaign contributors.

Do a Google search on “Bush environment record” and pick any source you like. Bush favors “voluntary compliance” instead of regulating industrial polluters. Sorry but that is just outright foolish.

[quote]
And they (terrorist attacks) were planned during the Clinton era. And if they would have been successful when they tried to blow them up in the 90’s it would have happened under Clinton.[/quote]

Really?

Remember the big Millenium terror attacks, that happened under Clinton? How about the terror attacks during the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta?

Me neither! Clinton and his team prevented terror attacks on the homeland, other than the first World Trade Center attack (which happened 38 days after Clinton took office). That one was planned while Bush 1 was in office. Unlike Dubya, Clinton didn’t whine like a pussy that it was somebody else’s fault. Clinton’s people caught the guys who were responsible!

But have you seen Osama Bin Laden in custody??

[quote]Worst ever intelligence failure in our history, regarding WMDs in Iraq, causing us to invade a sovereign nation on false pretenses.

So, who are we going to believe - A bi-partisan Congressional Commission set out to study the situation or Lumpy?[/quote]

I don’t believe the Warren Commission when they say Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone… maybe you do. But if you think the 9-11 commission report lets Bush off the hook, you are crazy.

And did you actually watch the 9-11 hearings? I did! As happens so often with the Bush administration, you are forced to decide are they LYING or are they merely just INCOMPETENT.

Again, you are making my point, as if everything Bush did can be boiled down to the phrase ‘slam dunk’. LOTS of people were telling the president that there were no WMDs in Iraq, not the least of whom were the weapons inspectors who were actually there in Iraq on the ground. Team Bush knew what result they wanted to get (an excuse to invade) and they blatantly ignored intelligence that didn’t conform to that goal. Cheney’s people even created a special office in the Pentagon to gather their own inelligence! (The Office of Special Plans). First of all, this was probably illegal. Secondly, their implicit purpose was to locate and cherry pick “intelligence” that they needed to launch a war. These OSP clowns are the ones who cultivated false WMD information from “Agent Curveball” and other phonies!

Read my thread about Chalabi. Team Bush paid a covicted felon 300,000 dollars a month in taxpayer dollars, over the course of a couple years, hoping to make Chalabi the next leader of Iraq. Basically everyone in Washington knew Chalabi was a con man (including Clinton and Powell) but Team Bush relied on him for WMD info. The idea that Iraqis would welcome Americans with chocolate and flowers came from Chalabi. Then it turns out Chalabi may be an agent working for Iran, and Chalabi appears to be backing Al-Sadr.

Who should take responsibility for Chalabi???

NOT Bush, I’m guessing???

I’ll say it again:
When it comes to accepting responsibility, it’s Anybody But Bush!

Dubya’s got that Teflon thing going on!

I can’t imagine any other situation where the person in charge is NOT held accountable for what happens under his command!

[quote]Lumpy wrote:
America lost over one million jobs (net) under Bush’s command! Dubya’s the first president to oversee a net loss of jobs, since Herbert Hoover was president (1928-1932) during the Great Depression!
(But somehow, that has nothing to do with George Bush… it’s “Clinton’s bad economy”! LOL!)
[/quote]

Lumpy says that we’re taking pressure off of Bush, so i just had to post this to show some facts.

Appearantly you think that the payroll survey calculates the number of jobs in the economy, but if that were true, how could you explain the fact that the unemployment rate has stayed pretty much the same even though the job force is growing? Bush has made more jobs, according to the houshold survey (which doesnt systematically exlude business owners, farmers, etc.), which is the survey that detirmines unemployment rate. Go ahead and look it up in bls.gov

[quote]Lumpy wrote:

Under Bush we have a record deficit, that will take decades to pay off, after Bush took office with a record surplus!
(That’s not Dubya’s fault! When it came time to veto some spending bills, Dubya couldn’t find a pen!)
[/quote]

Deficits don’t harm the economy, and many economists believe deficits actually stimulate it. Do some actual research please.