[quote]PredatorOC wrote:
The Piraha language has no past tense or numbers:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10383927
Also I remember reading about a language in South America that viewed the future in the past tense and the past in the future tense, but I can’t remember the name of the language…
This is the first thing that came to my mind and damned if I can remember the name either…Very interesting concepts in there though.
[quote]HoratioSandoval wrote:
Yeah, what is this for? You could get way beyond any college paper with any of the suggestions here. This is the stuff of PHDs.[/quote]
This thread has taken on a life of its own. Even if KombatAthlete can’t use any of it, this is just interesting reading.
The article on the Piraha was fascinating. I almost want to question that professor’s findings. Perhaps he missed some big concept in the translation? Perhaps the people never completely trusted him and withheld concepts and information from him? Then again, it’s plausible.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Robert P. wrote:
Also, ther is a language in Switzerland called rumansch that is almost extinct and is very different from the languages spoken in the countries around Switzerland.
Really? I thought that Romansh was basically another offshoot of Vulgar Latin, so it couldn’t be too different from Italian or French.[/quote]
Actually, nobody is really sure where it came from, and how it got to Switzerland. It has some simlarities with other Roman languages, but not very many. For example, I can read and understand spanish just fine, because my italian and french are good, even though I can’t speak it. However, Rumansch is a whole different ballgame.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
This isn’t odd at all. Different kinds of coffee with milk have differing amounts of milk to coffee, or may have a different “base.”
In terms of sandwiches, a panini in Italy isn’t generally made with the same kind of bread as a baguette. It is often pressed and heated in some sort of italian panini machine. A sandwich (at least in the US, uses sliced pieces of bread. [/quote]
Actually, you’re getting into a very different discussion when talking about the amount of milk. For example, if you take italian, a caffe late is just a coffee with milk. A latte macchiato (literally “spotted milk”) is milk with a bit of coffee. On the other hand, a caffe macchiato (“spotted coffee”) is coffee with just a bit of milk.
As for the sandwiches, it’s panino if you’re talking about a single sandwich. A panino is anything between two slices of any type of bread. A baguette is not even a sandwich, it’s a long loaf of white bread. What you’re seeing here is a generic term for bread or sandwich (baguette, panino) being transformed into a term for a speciality by people who don’t speak the language.
[quote]Robert P. wrote:
Actually, nobody is really sure where it came from, and how it got to Switzerland.[/quote]
I think it’s pretty obvious where it came from. The Romans conquered the central Alps during the reign of Augustus, and brought the Latin language with them.
By the end of the Roman Empire, the Latin speakers were gradually pushed into the high valleys by the encroachment of German speakers from the north and Italian speakers from the south, and the dialect evolved into a distinct language.
[/quote]
Oh, I don’t know about that. Here are the same sentences in English, Romansh, French and Italian.
(English) All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
(Romansh) Tuots umans naschan libers ed eguals in dignita e drets. Els sun dotats cun intellet e conscienza e dessan agir tanter per in uin spiert da fraternita.
(French) Tous les etres humains naissent libres et egaux en dignite et en droits. Ils sont doues de raison et de conscience et doivent agir les uns envers les autres dans un esprit de fraternite.
(Italian) Tutti gli esseri umani nascono liberi ed eguali in dignita e diritti. Essi sono dotati di ragione e di coscienza e devono agire gli uni verso gli altri in spirito di fratellanza.
Clearly, Romansh has more than “some similarities” with those languages. As a matter of fact, it’s more like a 78% lexical similarity, which is more than French has with Spanish (75%).
[quote]Robert P. wrote:
Actually, nobody is really sure where it came from, and how it got to Switzerland. It has some simlarities with other Roman languages, but not very many. For example, I can read and understand spanish just fine, because my italian and french are good, even though I can’t speak it. However, Rumansch is a whole different ballgame.[/quote]
I don’t really know much about Rumansch or what its origin is, but considering that Indo-European people/languages replaced many languages and cultures in Europe, I wouldn’t be surprised that there were still some original languages left, with varying degrees of influence from Indo-European languages.
From what I know, Basque seems to be one such language. Celtic languages and Finno-Ugric languages are also ‘original’.
For example, we Finns are genetically closest to the Belgians, which I believe is an indication that an Indo-European language was adopted by the population there, instead of a mass migration there and elsewhere in Northern Europe.
Obviously I don’t have much support for it other than that genetic compatibility, but it does seem odd that enough people from Belgium would have migrated to the arctic circle to replace the previous population.
[quote]Robert P. wrote:
Actually, you’re getting into a very different discussion when talking about the amount of milk. For example, if you take italian, a caffe late is just a coffee with milk. A latte macchiato (literally “spotted milk”) is milk with a bit of coffee. On the other hand, a caffe macchiato (“spotted coffee”) is coffee with just a bit of milk.
[/quote]
No, it’s the exact same discussion. I know what a caffe macchiato is. My point is that a latte is different from cafe au lait, because they are different preparations. Thus they are both valid names for the respective drinks they refer to. That is all.
Yes, I mistyped. Thanks for the correction.
[quote]
A panino is anything between two slices of any type of bread. A baguette is not even a sandwich, it’s a long loaf of white bread. What you’re seeing here is a generic term for bread or sandwich (baguette, panino) being transformed into a term for a speciality by people who don’t speak the language.[/quote]
Again, I know what a baguette is. If you walk into a bar or store in Italy and ask for a panino, you won’t get “anything between two slices of bread.” You will get a sandwich, and it tends to be made in certain ways. It’s an Italian-styled sandwich. I have never seen wonderbread, spam, and mustard on a panino. So no, I don’t think it’s “weird.”
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Robert P. wrote:
Actually, nobody is really sure where it came from, and how it got to Switzerland.
I think it’s pretty obvious where it came from. The Romans conquered the central Alps during the reign of Augustus, and brought the Latin language with them.
By the end of the Roman Empire, the Latin speakers were gradually pushed into the high valleys by the encroachment of German speakers from the north and Italian speakers from the south, and the dialect evolved into a distinct language.
It has some simlarities with other Roman languages, but not very many.
Oh, I don’t know about that. Here are the same sentences in English, Romansh, French and Italian.
(English) All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
(Romansh) Tuots umans naschan libers ed eguals in dignita e drets. Els sun dotats cun intellet e conscienza e dessan agir tanter per in uin spiert da fraternita.
(French) Tous les etres humains naissent libres et egaux en dignite et en droits. Ils sont doues de raison et de conscience et doivent agir les uns envers les autres dans un esprit de fraternite.
(Italian) Tutti gli esseri umani nascono liberi ed eguali in dignita e diritti. Essi sono dotati di ragione e di coscienza e devono agire gli uni verso gli altri in spirito di fratellanza.
Clearly, Romansh has more than “some similarities” with those languages. As a matter of fact, it’s more like a 78% lexical similarity, which is more than French has with Spanish (75%).
[/quote]
Well, go talk with some ethymologists then, I’m sure they’ll be delighted you cleared up something that is still widely argued about.
As for your example, that’s nice. However, there are 5 different dialects. You probably took the Sursilvan one, which has most similarity with italian. The sentence is also very simple and neglects the use of ch, tgia, and most notably ?.
Here’s another text for you, the beginning of a popular fable, in all dialects. And for your benefit, I’ll throw in a french, italian and english translation for you, though I cannot guarantee it’s accuracy.
English
The fox was hungry once again. He saw a raven on a tree, who was holding a piece of cheese in it’s beak. That would be to my taste, he thought, and called to the raven:“How beautiful you are! If your singing is as good as your looks are, you must be the most beautiful of all birds”.
Sursilvan
L’uolp era puspei inagada fomentada. Cheu ha ella viu sin in pegn in tgaper che teneva in toc caschiel en siu bec. Quei gustass a mi, ha ella tertgau, ed ha clamau al tgaper: “Tgei bi che ti eis! Sche tiu cant ei aschi bials sco tia cumparsa, lu eis ti il pli bi utschi da tuts”.
Sutsilvan
La vualp eara puspe egn’eada fumantada. Qua ? ella vieu sen egn pegn egn corv ca taneva egn toc caschiel ainten sieus pecel. Quegl gustass a mei, ? ella tartgieu, ed ? clamo agli corv: “Tge beal ca tei es! Scha tieus tg?nt e aschi beal sco tia pareta, alura es tei igl ple beal utschi da tuts”.
Surmiran
La golp era puspe eneda famantada. C? ? ella via sen en pegn en corv tgi tigniva en toc caschiel ainten sies pecel. Chegl am gustess, ? ella panso, ed ? clamo agl corv: “Tge bel tgi te ist! Schi igl ties cant ? schi bel scu tia parentscha, alloura ist te igl pli bel utschel da tots”.
Puter
La vuolp d’eira darcho ?na vouta famanteda. C? ho’la vis s?n ?n pin ?n corv chi tgnaiva ?n t?ch chasch?l in sieu pical. Que am gustess, ho’la penso, ed ho clamo al corv: “Che bel cha t? est! Scha tieu chaunt es usch? bel scu tia apparentscha, alura est t? il p? bel utsch? da tuots”.
Vallader
La vuolp d’eira darcheu ?na jada fomantada. Qua ha’la vis s?n ?n pin ?n corv chi tgnaiva ?n toc chasch?l in seis pical. Quai am gustess, ha’la pens?, ed ha clom? al corv: “Che bel cha t? est! Scha teis chant es usch? bel sco tia apparentscha, lura est t? il pl? bel utsch? da tuots”.
Rumantsch Grischun
La vulp era pusp? ina giada fomentada. Qua ha ella vis sin in pign in corv che tegneva in toc chaschiel en ses pichel. Quai ma gustass, ha ella pens?, ed ha clam? al corv: “Tge bel che ti es! Sche tes chant ? usch? bel sco tia parita, lura es ti il pli bel utsch? da tuts”.
French
Le renard avait faim encore un fois. Il a vue un corbeau dans un arbre, qui avait un piece de frommage dans son bec. Il pensait, ca me plairait, et disait au corbeau: “Comme tu es beaux! Si tu chantes aussi bien que tu es beaux, tu est le plus beaux de touts les oiseaus”.
Italian
La volpe aveva fame ancora una volta. Ha visto un corvo in un albero, che aveva un pezzo di formaggio nel becco. Pensava che gli piaccerebe, e diceva al corvo: “Comme sei bello! Se canti si bene comme sei bello, sei il piu bello di tutti gli ucelli”.
Also, don’t take this post as being against you personally. I am very impressed by your knowledge of japanese, and I’m also very impressed that you even know Rumansch exists, let alone the other things you know about it.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
No, it’s the exact same discussion. I know what a caffe macchiato is. My point is that a latte is different from cafe au lait, because they are different preparations. Thus they are both valid names for the respective drinks they refer to. That is all.[/quote]
Actually, if you ask for a caffe latte in Italy you’ll get the exact same thing you get in France if you ask for a cafe au lait. Again, this is people who don’t speak a language (not necessarily you) taking a generic term and applying it to a speciality.
I’ve never gotten wonderbread, spam and mustard at an american bar, either. However, most americans would still refer to that as a sandwich. Similarly, an italian would call it panino, even though he may not serve it at a bar.
[quote]Robert P. wrote:
Well, go talk with some ethymologists then, I’m sure they’ll be delighted you cleared up something that is still widely argued about.[/quote]
Tell me: what points of the statement below are currently in dispute among etymologists?
[i]Along with languages such as French, Spanish and Italian, Rhaeto-Romansh is a Romance language. Its history starts in the year 15 BC when the Romans conquered Rhaetia.
Vulgar Latin spread and started to combine with the pre-Roman languages. This resulted in a Vulgar Latin with a Rhaetian imprint that gradually developed into today’s Rhaeto-Romansh.
After the collapse of the Roman empire in the 5th century the Alamanii advanced into Rhaetia. In 536, the area became part of the Kingdom of the Francs. This was the decisive step in giving Rhaetia a northerly orientation.
In the 13th/14th century, the German-speaking Walser contributed to a further germanisation of the Rhaeto-Romansh area. In the 16th/17th century, the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation led to a transition from colloquial to written Rhaeto-Romansh.
Up until 1850, Rhaeto-Romansh was still the most spoken language in Graubunden. Along with the industrialisation and tourist trade during the 19th and 20th the language got more and more into trouble.
In 1938, the Swiss people and the cantons recognised Rhaeto-Romansh as a national language, and in 1996 as a semi-official language of Switzerland.
In 1982, a unified written language, Rumantsch Grischun, was created. In 1996, a daily Rhaeto-Romansh newspaper was established.[/i]
http://www.minority2000.net/Gr-15/f14gb.htm
Actually, my example used Rumantsch Grischun, not Sursilvan. But one would expect a language like Romansh, whose speakers were isolated from one another for centuries, to develop into widely varying dialects. Surely you are aware of the huge number of dialects spoken in Italy, aside from “standard” Italian. Two of them, Friulian and Dolomites Ladin, are mutually intelligible to Romansh. Which only suggests that the area in which Romansh was spoken was much larger than it is today.[quote]
Also, don’t take this post as being against you personally. I am very impressed by your knowledge of japanese, and I’m also very impressed that you even know Rumansch exists, let alone the other things you know about it. [/quote]
Well, grazia fitg. Then again, I also recall the moral of the Fox and Raven fable you quoted. 
[quote]PredatorOC wrote:
From what I know, Basque seems to be one such language. Celtic languages and Finno-Ugric languages are also ‘original’.
For example, we Finns are genetically closest to the Belgians, which I believe is an indication that an Indo-European language was adopted by the population there, instead of a mass migration there and elsewhere in Northern Europe.
Obviously I don’t have much support for it other than that genetic compatibility, but it does seem odd that enough people from Belgium would have migrated to the arctic circle to replace the previous population.
There is a controversial hypothesis, developed in part by esteemed linguist Robert Austerlitz, that speakers of Japanese, Korean, Finnish, Mongolian and Hungarian may all have had a common origin: the Mongolian steppes around Lake Baikal, in what is now south-central Russia.
The reasoning is that Finnish and Hungarian are close cousins, and Hungarian is in turn closely associated with Turkish, which shares much in common both with Mongolian and the ancient Hunnish language. And many scholars now agree that Korean, Japanese and Mongolian should all be included in the in the same language family.
http://www.ufomind.com/area51/desert_rat/1995/dr28/rat_28_ural.txt
It’s a stretch, I agree, and in fact most mainstream linguists reject the attempt to link the Altaic, Turkic and Finno-Ugric language families, but if this hypothesis is correct, it means that a blonde haired, blue eyed Finn has more in common (linguistically, at least) with Genghis Khan, Attilla and Kim Jong-Il than with the blonde-haired, blue-eyed Swedes next door.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
A lot.[/quote]
Sorry. Actually, you are quite right. I read up on the subject again and found out that my father is from an area of Graub?nden that is still heavily influenced by the language spoken before Rumansch, which is the language that is still argued about. They are generally refered to as R?tisch in german, don’t know if that tells you anything, and I was making the mistake of talking about that, even though it’s influence on Rumansch is small in most areas.
As for the raven fable, it is the first thing that I found when I searched for examples of all dialects (Rumantsch Grishun, by the way, is not an actual spoken dialect, it’s an attempt by the goverment to resurect the language - Rumansch is currently spoken by less people in Switzerland than Serbocroatian), and has nothing to do with my subsequent comments. Anyway, it was inte4resting to learn something more.
[quote]Robert P. wrote:
I read up on the subject again and found out that my father is from an area of Graub?nden that is still heavily influenced by the language spoken before Rumansch, which is the language that is still argued about. They are generally refered to as R?tisch in german, don’t know if that tells you anything, and I was making the mistake of talking about that, even though it’s influence on Rumansch is small in most areas.[/quote]
The people you’re referring to are the Rhaetians, I believe. As near as I can tell, they were a powerful warrior race, occupying not only eastern and central Switzerland, but also portions of modern Bavaria, Tirol and Lombardia.
Perhaps what is under dispute is whether they were of Etruscan origin, as was postulated during Roman times, or Celtic like the Helvetii. The latter view is, I think, the more widely accepted one.
Oh, I know, Robert. I was just kidding. As you may know, the moral of that fable is “beware of flatterers”.
I enjoyed the exchange. Let’s do it again sometime.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
The people you’re referring to are the Rhaetians, I believe. As near as I can tell, they were a powerful warrior race, occupying not only eastern and central Switzerland, but also portions of modern Bavaria, Tirol and Lombardia.
Perhaps what is under dispute is whether they were of Etruscan origin, as was postulated during Roman times, or Celtic like the Helvetii. The latter view is, I think, the more widely accepted one.
[/quote]
That’s who I’m refering to, yes. There are several theories, with the Celtic origin being the most widely accepted, as you stated. The conncection to the Etruscans is language based, which is why I got confused about the Rumansch topic.
Oh, and for the raven fable, yeah, I seem to recall the moral of it. Actually, I recall writing an essay on the topic a year or so ago in my german class:).
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
There is a controversial hypothesis, developed in part by esteemed linguist Robert Austerlitz, that speakers of Japanese, Korean, Finnish, Mongolian and Hungarian may all have had a common origin: the Mongolian steppes around Lake Baikal, in what is now south-central Russia.[/quote]
Yes, I have heard of similar theories, but I’m not sure what to make of them. For some reason Japanese people have an easy time learning Finnish and vice versa. And Turkish has similarities with Finnish. And Samoyed languages are strewn across the Siberian tundra. But that still leaves the problem of genes.
Migration obviously can explain genetic differences, but when one takes into account the inhospitable and quite inaccessible nature of Finland before comprehensive infrastructure was built, migration seems like a weak argument. I have never heard of archeological evidence showing a mass migration into Finland after the last ice age. So I’m assuming the genetic pool has not been greatly influenced after that.
I mean Finns have very little in common genetically with the Same who live in the north of Scandinavia and speak a Finno-Ugric language. Why is this?
I know these all will probably remain in the realm of guesses, but I do sometimes wonder if the introduction of Indo-European languages into Europe was a migration of people or a migration of ideas. Did people simply adopt the language of agriculture?
After all, to change a culture, the migration usually has to be larger than the original population. The Mongolian invasion of China lead to the Mongolians becoming more or less chinese. But of course Roman rule lead the subjected nations to adopt Roman culture, so its hard to say. This is all getting very confusing…