Any Dudes Wanna Get Married?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
703

[quote]imhungry wrote:
I BARELY know anything about the bible, BC. But, there are certain parts that i’m a little familier with and this is one of them.

Genesis:2:24 and Proverbs:5:15-19

Now I understand what you’re saying. Thank you for the clarification.

[/quote]

Yeah, as a Catholic if I had to say one thing – say no to 2% of sex so you can say yes to 98% of sex. Hump like rabbits (in marriage of course) and make it fun. No shame in sex, we’re not puritans.

P.S. Have a big feast, drink a barrel of wine, and dance all night.

704

[quote]Grneyes wrote:
It’s not about helping America flourish. It’s about giving a minority group the same rights as the majority. Since we were founded on that premise, why wouldn’t we want to do this?
[/quote]

Well two things, 1) I am not aware of this (the minority and majority thing) and 2) I am not aware of how that principal applies in this case.

705

[quote]kamui wrote:
a benefit is not a right.

“we the people” have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex.
Gays have this right too, exactly like you and me.
It’s just that they doesn’t want it. They want to modify the rules to their own benefit instead.
[/quote]

Okay…so gays have the right to marry people of the opposite sex. Great. How does that help them? They’re GAY. They don’t find the opposite sex sexually attractive. They want the right to marry the people they are sexually attracted to, which is their own sex.

706

[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:<<< your right cool was lost, sincere apologies trib, i may or may not have a temper, i disagree with you ill leave it at that. I hate people talking shit over forums and that exactly what i was doing, in all honesty i admire strong faith and you have some very educated points.
[/quote]I appreciate that, but I will probably be the hardest person to actually offend you will ever meet on this earth. It’s not that I don’t care what people think, quite the contrary. I just haven’t heard anything new in a couple decades. People call me names all the time and as long as my conscience is clear before the Lord as to why (which isn’t the case every time) I don’t mind.

707

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:
not to believe everything you here, think for your fucking self?[/quote]

Yes, seek wisdom. Which the Holy Mother Church holds exclusively whole to her chest so that all can find it if they ask. Listen to her and hear God’s Wisdom.

[quote]but if there are gays on this planet, then god put them here
[/quote]

Just change gays for any number of criminals and you’ll have basically the same truth statement. What is your point?[/quote]

thats a very good point, took my a while to consider that. i dont really think you can relate the two unless you believe that both criminality and sexuality are choices or that both innately placed in us as human beings. if you consider one to be innate in us and others to be personal choices over which god does not control, then its like comparing apples to oranges. i dont think any of us are gonna agree on that matter of whether or not homosexuality is a choice anytime soon so i think that might be pointless to argue here

708

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:<<< your right cool was lost, sincere apologies trib, i may or may not have a temper, i disagree with you ill leave it at that. I hate people talking shit over forums and that exactly what i was doing, in all honesty i admire strong faith and you have some very educated points.
[/quote]I appreciate that, but I will probably be the hardest person to actually offend you will ever meet on this earth. It’s not that I don’t care what people think, quite the contrary. I just haven’t heard anything new in a couple decades. People call me names all the time and as long as my conscience is clear before the Lord as to why (which isn’t the case every time) I don’t mind.
[/quote]

very admirable, from the bottom of my heart i think everyone should strive for that level of sincerity towards there own personal relationships with the lord

709

[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:
both criminality and sexuality[/quote]

Concupiscence and sexuality are both not a choice. Both are an affliction, one comes from the other. However, we do have choice in whether we act when it comes to both.

710

[quote]Grneyes wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
a benefit is not a right.

“we the people” have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex.
Gays have this right too, exactly like you and me.
It’s just that they doesn’t want it. They want to modify the rules to their own benefit instead.
[/quote]

Okay…so gays have the right to marry people of the opposite sex. Great. How does that help them? They’re GAY. They don’t find the opposite sex sexually attractive. They want the right to marry the people they are sexually attracted to, which is their own sex. [/quote]

Come on, Grneyes, you must see the point by now. Why do you keep hitting the reset button like it’s the first time this has come up?

One more time: kamui is, as usual, correct. The reason they are afforded benefits based upon this right (to marry someone of the opposite sex), and not based upon the other one (SSM) is that the latter provides an invaluable procreative and stabilizing element to society that the former DOES NOT.

In order for SSM to warrant receiving equal benefits to hetero marriage soeone is going to have to demonstrate that there is a reasonably equivalent benefit to society provided by SSM. All those benefits that hetero married couples receive are a reward/incentive to encourage behavior we want to see MORE OF. We, as a society, don’t really give damn about homosexual marriage because the only group it benefits in any substantial way is homosexuals.

In order to put this into perspective, you need to look at the two relationships in the light of each one’s relative importance to society.

If somehow, overnight, every homosexual relationship on the planet suddenly ended, aside from perhaps an immediate decline in fashion and interior design standards :wink: the world would really not be affected much one way or the other. If the opposite occurred, and it was every hetero relationship that ceased, there would be no world to speak of in short time.

That’s why we take care of our hetero relationships so much. Because they are important. Damned important.

711

[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:
not to believe everything you here, think for your fucking self?[/quote]

Yes, seek wisdom. Which the Holy Mother Church holds exclusively whole to her chest so that all can find it if they ask. Listen to her and hear God’s Wisdom.

[quote]but if there are gays on this planet, then god put them here
[/quote]

Just change gays for any number of criminals and you’ll have basically the same truth statement. What is your point?[/quote]

thats a very good point, took my a while to consider that. i dont really think you can relate the two unless you believe that both criminality and sexuality are choices or that both innately placed in us as human beings. if you consider one to be innate in us and others to be personal choices over which god does not control, then its like comparing apples to oranges. i dont think any of us are gonna agree on that matter of whether or not homosexuality is a choice anytime soon so i think that might be pointless to argue here
[/quote]

As a gay man, I’m 100% confident my sexual orientation is not a choice. It might be genetic, in utero, environmental, or all of the above. Doesn’t matter. I never chose to be gay any more than heterosexuals chose to be straight, and I couldn’t change my orientation any more than they could.

More importantly, what does it matter? Even if it were a choice, there is nothing inherently harmful or damaging about being gay. Crime hurts other people, but being gay does not. Religion is a choice, race is not, but both are legally protected from discrimination.

712

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:
not to believe everything you here, think for your fucking self?[/quote]

Yes, seek wisdom. Which the Holy Mother Church holds exclusively whole to her chest so that all can find it if they ask. Listen to her and hear God’s Wisdom.

[quote]but if there are gays on this planet, then god put them here
[/quote]

Just change gays for any number of criminals and you’ll have basically the same truth statement. What is your point?[/quote]

thats a very good point, took my a while to consider that. i dont really think you can relate the two unless you believe that both criminality and sexuality are choices or that both innately placed in us as human beings. if you consider one to be innate in us and others to be personal choices over which god does not control, then its like comparing apples to oranges. i dont think any of us are gonna agree on that matter of whether or not homosexuality is a choice anytime soon so i think that might be pointless to argue here
[/quote]

As a gay man, I’m 100% confident my sexual orientation is not a choice. It might be genetic, in utero, environmental, or all of the above. Doesn’t matter. I never chose to be gay any more than heterosexuals chose to be straight, and I couldn’t change my orientation any more than they could.

More importantly, what does it matter? Even if it were a choice, there is nothing inherently harmful or damaging about being gay. Crime hurts other people, but being gay does not. Religion is a choice, race is not, but both are legally protected from discrimination.[/quote]

i agree with that statement 100%, i just figured i wouldnt be changing anyones mind on that issue anytime soon

713

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:
both criminality and sexuality[/quote]

Concupiscence and sexuality are both not a choice. Both are an affliction, one comes from the other. However, we do have choice in whether we act when it comes to both.[/quote]

here we are on different pages, and seeing as neither of us are going to convince the other to alter their beliefs on what homosexuality i think that argument has ran its course

714

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Grneyes wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
a benefit is not a right.

“we the people” have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex.
Gays have this right too, exactly like you and me.
It’s just that they doesn’t want it. They want to modify the rules to their own benefit instead.
[/quote]

Okay…so gays have the right to marry people of the opposite sex. Great. How does that help them? They’re GAY. They don’t find the opposite sex sexually attractive. They want the right to marry the people they are sexually attracted to, which is their own sex. [/quote]

Come on, Grneyes, you must see the point by now. Why do you keep hitting the reset button like it’s the first time this has come up?

One more time: kamui is, as usual, correct. The reason they are afforded benefits based upon this right (to marry someone of the opposite sex), and not based upon the other one (SSM) is that the latter provides an invaluable procreative and stabilizing element to society that the former DOES NOT.

In order for SSM to warrant receiving equal benefits to hetero marriage soeone is going to have to demonstrate that there is a reasonably equivalent benefit to society provided by SSM. All those benefits that hetero married couples receive are a reward/incentive to encourage behavior we want to see MORE OF. We, as a society, don’t really give damn about homosexual marriage because the only group it benefits in any substantial way is homosexuals.

In order to put this into perspective, you need to look at the two relationships in the light of each one’s relative importance to society.

If somehow, overnight, every homosexual relationship on the planet suddenly ended, aside from perhaps an immediate decline in fashion and interior design standards :wink: the world would really not be affected much one way or the other. If the opposite occurred, and it was every hetero relationship that ceased, there would be no world to speak of in short time.

That’s why we take care of our hetero relationships so much. Because they are important. Damned important.
[/quote]

I believe that married adoptive gay couples add more to society in that regard than childless straight couples.

I also believe marriage benefits society in other ways beyond childrearing.

People that are married are statistically more likely to be healthy and happy.

Marriage reduces the likelihood of infidelity and the spread of sexually transmitted diseases.

Marriage provides immediate welfare support when one spouse loses a job, and is supported by the other spouse before turning to the state.

The health and economic advantages of marriage justify the legal benefits provided by marriage, in my opinion.

And that is from a strictly utilitarian perspective.

Beyond that, I see marriage as an equal rights issue, and many of the courts agree with me in their rulings.

I want to be very clear here:

I’m not here to change anyone’s opinion, and I am only expressing my personal opinion.

715

[quote]forlife wrote:
there is nothing inherently harmful or damaging about being gay. Crime hurts other people, but being gay does not.[/quote]

Apparently there is plenty of harm in acting on that impulse according the the CDC:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/FastFacts-MSM-FINAL508COMP.pdf

Wow, about 20% of all gay men are infected with the HIV virus! I bet you won’t see that statistic talked about by the Main Stream Liberal Media.

Not to mention higher rates of virtually every known sexually transmitted disease from STD’s to anal cancer. And then there’s the high incidence of emotional problems, from anxiety and depression to suicide. And these mental problems have nothing to do with acceptance. In the Netherlands where gay marriage has been legal for 10 years and homosexuality is no big deal the rates of suicide among homosexuals is still high and did not change after gay marriage was introduced.

716

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
there is nothing inherently harmful or damaging about being gay. Crime hurts other people, but being gay does not.[/quote]

Apparently there is plenty of harm in acting on that impulse according the the CDC:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/FastFacts-MSM-FINAL508COMP.pdf

Wow, about 20% of all gay men are infected with the HIV virus! I bet you won’t see that statistic talked about by the Main Stream Liberal Media.

Not to mention higher rates of virtually every known sexually transmitted disease from STD’s to anal cancer. And then there’s the high incidence of emotional problems, from anxiety and depression to suicide. And these mental problems have nothing to do with acceptance. In the Netherlands where gay marriage has been legal for 10 years and homosexuality is no big deal the rates of suicide among homosexuals is still high and did not change after gay marriage was introduced.

[/quote]

Do you have any related statistics on Lesbians?

717

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Apparently there is plenty of harm in acting on that impulse according the the CDC:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/FastFacts-MSM-FINAL508COMP.pdf

Wow, about 20% of all gay men are infected with the HIV virus! I bet you won’t see that statistic talked about by the Main Stream Liberal Media.

Not to mention higher rates of virtually every known sexually transmitted disease from STD’s to anal cancer. And then there’s the high incidence of emotional problems, from anxiety and depression to suicide. And these mental problems have nothing to do with acceptance. In the Netherlands where gay marriage has been legal for 10 years and homosexuality is no big deal the rates of suicide among homosexuals is still high and did not change after gay marriage was introduced.
[/quote]

Seems very much like gay marriage or union or whatever it is called wont have any correlation whatsoever with statistical gay health and mental problems, then. I understand the reasons why someone sees marriage as special, though it is just the couple who make it special if it ever is, according my opinion. The sentiments shown here conserning the specialness of marriage seem to be quite ceneral both in Europe and US, though. Yes, in Europe too.
Just out of curiosity, do you see any way in which a gay couple wanting to be monogamous, a minority in a minority, could protect their union in the legal aspects?

718

[quote]forlife wrote:
Even if it were a choice, there is nothing inherently harmful or damaging about being gay.[/quote]

True, but there is something inherently harmful in homosexual sex, at least statistically.

Even when “corrected” to remove HIV from the picture, men who have engaged in male-male sex (regardless if they self-identify as gay or not and regardless if they practice “safe” sex or not) live an average of 23 years less than comparable men who have no engaged in such sex. When HIV is added back in, it becomes 27 years less than comparable men.*

To put that in perspective, 2 pack a day lifetime smokers shave off somewhere between 15 and 20 years from their lives.

In short, people want to ban smoking tobacco all the time, but it’s far less dangerous than gay sex.

  • The reasons for the shorter lifespans are a matter of speculation, and probably a combination of factors. In brief, it is believed there are several other diseases that are transmitted by sodomy that are not identified (there are certainly several aggressive veneral diseases, including drug-resistant diseases, that are common); suicide rates are much higher among gays; and severe drug and alcohol abuse is much higher among gays.
719

with a civil union contract. (registration and recognition by the State, but no promotion nor privilege : it’s a contract, not an institution).

It’s legal in France since 1999.

720

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Even if it were a choice, there is nothing inherently harmful or damaging about being gay.[/quote]

True, but there is something inherently harmful in homosexual sex, at least statistically.

Even when “corrected” to remove HIV from the picture, men who have engaged in male-male sex (regardless if they self-identify as gay or not and regardless if they practice “safe” sex or not) live an average of 23 years less than comparable men who have no engaged in such sex. When HIV is added back in, it becomes 27 years less than comparable men.*

To put that in perspective, 2 pack a day lifetime smokers shave off somewhere between 15 and 20 years from their lives.

In short, people want to ban smoking tobacco all the time, but it’s far less dangerous than gay sex.

  • The reasons for the shorter lifespans are a matter of speculation, and probably a combination of factors. In brief, it is believed there are several other diseases that are transmitted by sodomy that are not identified (there are certainly several aggressive veneral diseases, including drug-resistant diseases, that are common); suicide rates are much higher among gays; and severe drug and alcohol abuse is much higher among gays.[/quote]

What about gay women?

721

[quote]kamui wrote:

with a civil union contract. (registration and recognition by the State, but no promotion nor privilege : it’s a contract, not an institution).

It’s legal in France since 1999. [/quote]

And is this civil union called union civil? I could google and read the legislation. It makes it easier if I have the proper term.

722

It’s called “Pacte Civil de Solidarité” (PACS)
“Civil Pact of Solidarity” in english, i presume.