Any Church Goers?

Off Topic
261

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:
HG, where do you fall in regards to the belief of a higher power?[/quote]
I believe a higher power exists. Or we all exist within it, rather.[/quote]

So, you don’t subscribe to the way God is depicted in the bible?[/quote]

which part of the bible?

the old testament where there is an unseen force that is harsh and judgmental to his people, or the god of the new testament that belives of all the commandments, the greatest of these is love?

and that begs the question on the deity of christ.[/quote]
[/quote]
This might be your best work to date.

262

[quote]Edgy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:
HG, where do you fall in regards to the belief of a higher power?[/quote]
I believe a higher power exists. Or we all exist within it, rather.[/quote]

So, you don’t subscribe to the way God is depicted in the bible?[/quote]

which part of the bible?

the old testament where there is an unseen force that is harsh and judgmental to his people, or the god of the new testament that belives of all the commandments, the greatest of these is love?

and that begs the question on the deity of christ.[/quote]

Yes, I was alluding to the OT.

263

[quote]Multiple Moods wrote:

Does not the Quran at the beginning validet the books of Christianity and Judaism?
And in doing so pretty much invalidates itself as Christians are told in the NT somewhere(unsure of the particular passage)to heed no other gospel after this one even if preached by an angel
[/quote]

It ‘validates’ the original (untouched) message of Jesus and Musa but goes on to claim it has been corrupted.

If you read the Quran, the Quran basically paints a picture like this:

Original Judaism = Good. Corrupted Judaism = Bad. →

Original Christianity = succession of Judaism and good. Corrupted Christianity = Bad. →

Islam = the final and complete revelation.

Abraham, Noah, Moses, and Jesus (among a bunch of others) are highly respected and very important to Islam. They are prophets of Islam. In fact, Jesus is actually mentioned MORE in the Quran than Muhammad. And Moses more than Jesus! The Quran simply states that Muhammad was the ‘last and greatest’ prophet (meaning Islam is the last revelation).

Do I believe in this? I’m not sure yet. But it’s very interesting me.

264

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]Multiple Moods wrote:

Does not the Quran at the beginning validet the books of Christianity and Judaism?
And in doing so pretty much invalidates itself as Christians are told in the NT somewhere(unsure of the particular passage)to heed no other gospel after this one even if preached by an angel
[/quote]

It ‘validates’ the original (untouched) message of Jesus and Musa but goes on to claim it has been corrupted.

If you read the Quran, the Quran basically paints a picture like this:

Original Judaism = Good. Corrupted Judaism = Bad. →

Original Christianity = succession of Judaism and good. Corrupted Christianity = Bad. →

Islam = the final and complete revelation.

Abraham, Noah, Moses, and Jesus (among a bunch of others) are highly respected and very important to Islam. They are prophets of Islam. In fact, Jesus is actually mentioned MORE in the Quran than Muhammad. And Moses more than Jesus! The Quran simply states that Muhammad was the ‘last and greatest’ prophet (meaning Islam is the last revelation).

Do I believe in this? I’m not sure yet. But it’s very interesting me. [/quote]

Could you give an example or two of original vs. corrupted messages?

265

[quote]Edgy wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Not picking on you, Edge, just pointing out what I believe to be a fact about those with this opinion of the OT.
[/quote]

No worries, MasterPush -

seems like a god that lets his people languish in slavery for generations, then lets them wander around the desert for 40 years, is not that loving.

but then again, there is the golden calf incident - which was blown WAY out of proportion -

JK~[/quote]

Lol how was it blown out of proportion?

The early followers of Moses worshiped the golden calf as a false idol, am I right?

Of course Moses would be pissed and throw his tablets down the mountain side - they did exactly what he told them not to!

266

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

Could you give an example or two of original vs. corrupted messages?[/quote]

Well - I’m not a scholar and I won’t pretend to be one. I can only infer and gather evidence based on what I know and have read - there is much I have not read on all sides of the story.

I can give you this though:

[quote]Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Al-Baqarah), ayat 62[/quote]

This is an example of the Quran validating the scriptures of the Jews, Christians, and Sabians (I understand the Sabians as converts to Islam but I may be wrong).

In surat Al-Kahf though… this is stated:

[quote]
[18:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[18:1] Praise GOD, who revealed to His servant this scripture, and made it flawless.

[18:2] A perfect (scripture) to warn of severe retribution from Him, and to deliver good news to the believers who lead a righteous life, that they have earned a generous recompense.

[18:3] Wherein they abide forever.

[18:4] And to warn those who said, “GOD has begotten a son!”

[18:5] They possess no knowledge about this, nor did their parents. What a blasphemy coming out of their mouths! What they utter is a gross lie.

[18:6] You may blame yourself on account of their response to this narration, and their disbelieving in it; you may be saddened.[/quote]

I think the above surat explains itself.

267

As a general comment, the early Gnostics in general and the work “Pistis Sophia”, are interesting subjects to research. Valentinus, a second century christian gnostic, wrote some interesting stuff regarding christ’s deeper, veiled teachings and quotes never cannonized.

You can find some info on the net though it’s always best to find it in real life, although “they” say certain knowledge finds you, if you are to receive it. * cue mystical sound effects

“In the remarkable fragment called the Pistis Sophia, we have a document of the greatest interest bearing on the hidden teaching, written by the famous Valentinus. In this it is said that during the eleven years immediately after His death Jesus instructed His disciples so far as “the regions of the first statutes only, and up to the regions of the first mystery, the mystery within the veil”.”

“Then Jesus, being “in the Mount” with His disciples, and having received His mystic Vesture, the knowledge of all [Page 119] the regions and the Words of Power which unlocked them, taught His disciples further, promising: “I will perfect you in every perfection, from the mysteries of the interior to the mysteries of the exterior: I will fill you with the Spirit, so that ye shall be called spiritual, perfect in all perfections”.”

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/divinelife/annie/historicalChrist.asp

The website is gimmicky, but it has some interesting, historical works uploaded including the linked article referring to Christian Mysticism.

You may be able to find the entire Pistis Sophia on sacredtexts.com, didn’t look, just googled.

Pistis Sophia:

Pistis Sophia - Wikipedia

Valentinus:

268

make that sacred-texts.com

269

And this is an interesting read as well, discussing Jesus as an occult initiate, bringing “sacred” wisdom public.

As with any unknown topic validated by faith alone, read with a grain of salt.

270

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

Could you give an example or two of original vs. corrupted messages?[/quote]

Well - I’m not a scholar and I won’t pretend to be one. I can only infer and gather evidence based on what I know and have read - there is much I have not read on all sides of the story.

I can give you this though:

[quote]Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Al-Baqarah), ayat 62[/quote]

This is an example of the Quran validating the scriptures of the Jews, Christians, and Sabians (I understand the Sabians as converts to Islam but I may be wrong).

In surat Al-Kahf though… this is stated:

[quote]
[18:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[18:1] Praise GOD, who revealed to His servant this scripture, and made it flawless.

[18:2] A perfect (scripture) to warn of severe retribution from Him, and to deliver good news to the believers who lead a righteous life, that they have earned a generous recompense.

[18:3] Wherein they abide forever.

[18:4] And to warn those who said, “GOD has begotten a son!”

[18:5] They possess no knowledge about this, nor did their parents. What a blasphemy coming out of their mouths! What they utter is a gross lie.

[18:6] You may blame yourself on account of their response to this narration, and their disbelieving in it; you may be saddened.[/quote]

I think the above surat explains itself.[/quote]

So, it says Jesus is a good guy, prophet.
Not, Jesus is the son of God?

272

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Not picking on you, Edge, just pointing out what I believe to be a fact about those with this opinion of the OT.
[/quote]

No worries, MasterPush -

seems like a god that lets his people languish in slavery for generations, then lets them wander around the desert for 40 years, is not that loving.

but then again, there is the golden calf incident - which was blown WAY out of proportion -

JK~[/quote]

Lol how was it blown out of proportion?

The early followers of Moses worshiped the golden calf as a false idol, am I right?

Of course Moses would be pissed and throw his tablets down the mountain side - they did exactly what he told them not to!
[/quote]

the JK at the end of the message referred to ‘just kidding’.

I was srsly kidding, dude~!

273

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:

the old testament where there is an unseen force that is harsh and judgmental to his people…

[/quote]

This is somewhat of a myth. A huge portion of the OT does indeed show a loving, patient, forgiving God.

It’s those who have read it the least or cursorily at best who seem to want to propagate the “harsh God” theory.

Not picking on you, Edge, just pointing out what I believe to be a fact about those with this opinion of the OT.
[/quote]
From a pragmatic view, flooding the entire world and killing all but one family, damning all people to hell unless they conform to his rules, his handling of the egyptians (human and therefore his creation) et cetera, et cetera, et cetera show a truly angry and violent god, one placated by sacrifice; ultimately the sacrifice of his very own son who allegedly lets us bask in his conquering of death if we choose too. But god is still an asshole. If you didn’t have jesus, he’d fuck you seven ways to sunday during your trip to hell after you die.[/quote]

You’re certainly entitled to that opinion even if it richly illustrates exactly what I was talking about.[/quote]
Except I’ve read the old testament. There is a difference between how god is described and how he actually manifests himself.

If it weren’t the case, there wouldn’t be a need for jesus and the whole tradition would be a farce.

God created man, man was tempted by another of his creations, god created a rift bridged through sacrifice, jesus became a universal sacrifice for all. Don’t accept jesus, go to hell, which god created and allows satan to propogate. This is christianity from an objective view point.

Blessings, fruits et cetera are nice but the reality is even those are contingent on an appeased god who would otherwise cut you from the vine and let you burn.

If you can rebuttal with verses in context I’ll take a look.

275

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Looks like I need to repeat myself:

This (the “Oh gracious sakes alive, the OT God is soooo, soooooo super mean” theory) is somewhat of a myth. A huge portion of the OT does indeed show a loving, patient, forgiving God.

It’s those who have read it the least or cursorily at best who seem to want to propagate the “harsh God” theory.

HG, you may have read the OT but you would be in the camp of those who’ve read it cursorily. Firmly in that camp. Trust me, I can tell.
[/quote]

MasterPush - do you find yourself to be a Christian, or of the Jewish faith?

276

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Looks like I need to repeat myself:

This (the “Oh gracious sakes alive, the OT G-d is soooo, soooooo super mean” theory) is COMPLETE STEAMING PILE OF BULLSHIT caused by lazy readers who read portions of the text out of context and without the Talmud. A entire OT does indeed show a loving, patient, forgiving G-d.

It’s those who have read it the least or cursorily at best who seem to want to propagate the “harsh G-d” theory.

HG, you may have read the OT but you would be in the camp of those who’ve read it cursorily. Firmly in that camp. Trust me, I can tell.
[/quote]

Agreed, with one small change

277

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Looks like I need to repeat myself:

This (the “Oh gracious sakes alive, the OT God is soooo, soooooo super mean” theory) is somewhat of a myth. A huge portion of the OT does indeed show a loving, patient, forgiving God.

It’s those who have read it the least or cursorily at best who seem to want to propagate the “harsh God” theory.

HG, you may have read the OT but you would be in the camp of those who’ve read it cursorily. Firmly in that camp. Trust me, I can tell.
[/quote]
You’ll have to be more convincing than “trust me”. The god of both testaments is like an alcoholic father. He gets drunk and beats the shit out of you, then he buys you a new bike to placate the relationship, a rainbow of sorts. Jesus is the older brother who intercedes on your behalf.

278

[quote]Edgy wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Not picking on you, Edge, just pointing out what I believe to be a fact about those with this opinion of the OT.
[/quote]

No worries, MasterPush -

seems like a god that lets his people languish in slavery for generations, then lets them wander around the desert for 40 years, is not that loving.

but then again, there is the golden calf incident - which was blown WAY out of proportion -

JK~[/quote]

Lol how was it blown out of proportion?

The early followers of Moses worshiped the golden calf as a false idol, am I right?

Of course Moses would be pissed and throw his tablets down the mountain side - they did exactly what he told them not to!
[/quote]

the JK at the end of the message referred to ‘just kidding’.

I was srsly kidding, dude~!
[/quote]

woops. Never saw the JK!

my bad:)