Another Rendition Incident

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Vroom, why do you dwell on this?

Why don’t you focus on the evil done by the terrorists?

Why don’t you mention the UN report that recently pointed out that China is still torturing many of its own citizens?

Are you anti-US or anti-torture?

May I dwell on this a little bit?

Do you realize that kidnapping one of our citizens, sending him to a unknown location and interrogating him in a rather unpolite fashion is actually considered to be a crime by most, if not all, European law sytems?

There might even be some Europeans that get the impression that American organisations act under the assumption that European citizens are second-class human beings, [/quote]

Perhaps you haven’t heard, but there is a war on.

[quote]vroom wrote:
My half a brain isn’t the issue. The status quo is not going to change whether or not I agree or disagree. Do you think the U.S. is the only country in the world performing similar operations? Pull your head out boy blue, this isn’t confined to U.S. intel.

Actually, it just changed. Check out recent news in Europe. Rice has just announced a change in policy with respect to the CAT agreements.

Or, look in the thread Boston started recently… detailing the polls showing that the “majority” support torture. I just posted a link in there.[/quote]

Actually–I referenced it above. It’s not as much a change as public declaration. Once again you miss what you want and attack half-hazzardly

The winds of change are blowing Sasquatch, but I really have no idea what the hell you are trying to say…

Perhaps the stance shift by the administration today, in the middle of your arguments in support of the old stance, has caught you off guard?

Alternately, are you suggesting they are playing word games but nothing will actually change?

[quote]vroom wrote:
The winds of change are blowing Sasquatch, but I really have no idea what the hell you are trying to say…

Perhaps the stance shift by the administration today, in the middle of your arguments in support of the old stance, has caught you off guard?

Alternately, are you suggesting they are playing word games but nothing will actually change?
[/quote]

\Old stance. New stance. Off guard.

I swear you are dillusional. Read my posts and show me where I acknowleged any stance by the administration.

I simply stated they had little, if anything, to do with this incident.

Maybe if you climbed off that self-indulgent somewhat dillusional pedastal you’ve placed yourself upon and took the time to actually understand what others are trying to say, there could be some meaningful dialouge on these threads.

Until then you’ll continue to think you actually offer insight and initiate thought by others. when in fact it’s quite the opposite

orion wrote:

"Do you realize that kidnapping one of our citizens, sending him to a unknown location and interrogating him in a rather unpolite fashion is actually considered to be a crime by most, if not all, European law sytems?

There might even be some Europeans that get the impression that American organisations act under the assumption that European citizens are second-class human beings"

Just wanted to pop in and thank germany for being the number one arms supplier to saddam hussein since the early 80’s.

Thanks for your help in cleaning up the mess.

By the way, we do not support hurting innocents.

JeffR

I’m just wondering how the anti-American/anti-American torcher crowd might reconcile the fact that there are Europeans participating in the homocide bombing attempts INSIDE Iraq, and their frenzy to call the U.S. a bunch of torture-at-will masochists.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/12/01/belgium.iraq/index.html?section=cnn_world

Rainjack,

Somehow I suspect those engaging in such things are not sponsored by any government.

That is a significant difference… as every country has whacko’s – just look at Sasquatch, for example.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Rainjack,

Somehow I suspect those engaging in such things are not sponsored by any government.

That is a significant difference… as every country has whacko’s – just look at Sasquatch, for example.[/quote]

How insightful!

And ‘THEY’ were sponsored until certain leaders and governments were disposed of.

But personal attacks seem more your speed than facts or information.

[quote]And ‘THEY’ were sponsored until certain leaders and governments were disposed of.

But personal attacks seem more your speed than facts or information. [/quote]

Oh come on. I’ll bet you a dollar Rainjack found that funny!

Anyway, from reading the CNN aticle, how do you get state sponsorship out of that terrorist act?

Like I said, every country can spawn wacko’s, that isn’t the same as a country having wacko policies.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Rainjack,

Somehow I suspect those engaging in such things are not sponsored by any government.

That is a significant difference… as every country has whacko’s – just look at Sasquatch, for example.[/quote]

I certainly don’t think a Bulgarian woman married to a middle east man with strong ties to Al Zarqawi are gainfully employed, and doing this as a weekend hobby.

She was sponsored by our enemy. Government or no.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
orion wrote:

"Do you realize that kidnapping one of our citizens, sending him to a unknown location and interrogating him in a rather unpolite fashion is actually considered to be a crime by most, if not all, European law sytems?

There might even be some Europeans that get the impression that American organisations act under the assumption that European citizens are second-class human beings"

Just wanted to pop in and thank germany for being the number one arms supplier to saddam hussein since the early 80’s.

Thanks for your help in cleaning up the mess.

By the way, we do not support hurting innocents.

JeffR

[/quote]

That is funny. Hey you’re welcome and i take full responsibelity for all german companies actions. The german people are to blame. I would suggest you bomb us next…:slight_smile:

People are right to point out that all intelligence agencies didn’t change the way they act at all, because of the change of government. Only thing that changed is that we actually get to see part of what happens. I wonder why they let us see this?

Oh about arms delaing. That clearly wasn’t a problem when we did it though. Iran was the enemy.

Besides we never gave them any chemical or biological weapons for immediate use on innocent people like you did, we did just what you must have asked us for.

I don’t know though i was barely alive back then, so i might be wrong about you asking us, but one can be pretty sure you did.

Remember Saddam used to be your buddy. Khomeni was the enemy back then.

Also i didn’t expect you to remember, but there were two germanies back then. Eastern communist germany and western germany. Almost all of the trades with real weapons were done by the eastern part under the SED party which later turned into the PDS when Germany reunited. We are talking soviet weapons here. That is why this party is a political outsider. We all know where the money is from.

Back to western Germany. Babcock was the only western german company to supply weapons. The supplied sub-marines to israel (Dolphin class) which is the real problem, because these things can be made to carry A-weapons plus we just gave them away for free (possible exchange of technology). They also provided parts for weapons manufacturing to iraq and iran. A system that supplies “hochreines” water, which is needed for the production of chemical weapon’s systems but also can be used for numerous other things that is.

Babcock is basically owned by banks and cloesly associated with the SPD party. They were the ones leading germany under chancellor Schr?der so don’t expect anyone to go buckwild now because they sold stuff to Iraq.

How that makes us the number one weapons supplier is beyond me. France did supply alot more, so did the U.S., so did Russia. Besides babcock sold shit to Iran, too, so why isn’t that an issue? That’s what banks do. They fund both sides of any war.

You guys are getting on my german nerves with this germans this germans that shit. I am not on here saying the americans did this or that or anything for that matter. You can actually name the people that do stuff and you would surely be better of to do so. Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Perhaps you haven’t heard, but there is a war on.[/quote]

With us?

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Perhaps you haven’t heard, but there is a war on.

With us?[/quote]

Are you a terrorist? Have you been spotted frequenting known terrorist congregation areas? Then probably not.

It’s not like the U.S. went to Germany and snatched some poor guy out of his bed.

If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time - bad shit can happen to you - whether you are a terrorist or not.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Perhaps you haven’t heard, but there is a war on.

With us?

Are you a terrorist? Have you been spotted frequenting known terrorist congregation areas? Then probably not.

It’s not like the U.S. went to Germany and snatched some poor guy out of his bed.

If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time - bad shit can happen to you - whether you are a terrorist or not. [/quote]

Apparently that is exactly what happened.

The US went to Germany and snatched some poor guy out of his bed.

They also have admitted that they apparently got the wrong guy. Why do you think Rice is doing her little dance in Europe right now?

[quote]orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Perhaps you haven’t heard, but there is a war on.

With us?

Are you a terrorist? Have you been spotted frequenting known terrorist congregation areas? Then probably not.

It’s not like the U.S. went to Germany and snatched some poor guy out of his bed.

If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time - bad shit can happen to you - whether you are a terrorist or not.

Apparently that is exactly what happened.

The US went to Germany and snatched some poor guy out of his bed.

They also have admitted that they apparently got the wrong guy. Why do you think Rice is doing her little dance in Europe right now?[/quote]

He was detained in Macedonia by the Macedonian authorities because he was listed on a terrorist watch list. They questioned him for 22 days before releasing him to US authorities.

She’s dancing in Europe right now to answer critics in the US.

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Perhaps you haven’t heard, but there is a war on.

With us?[/quote]

Are you with us or against us?

Oh that is right you are trying to sit this one out because the Islamic radicals don’t have a problem with Western Europe.

[quote]orion wrote:

Apparently that is exactly what happened.

The US went to Germany and snatched some poor guy out of his bed.

They also have admitted that they apparently got the wrong guy. Why do you think Rice is doing her little dance in Europe right now?[/quote]

That isn’t quite what happened, though it was apparently a mistake:

Somehow that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense…

She’s dancing because it would probably be nice if the next administration had just a tiny bit of credibility and pull in the international community.

The critics in the US are simply labeled as reprehensible and non-partriotic. They don’t even get a dance.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Perhaps you haven’t heard, but there is a war on.

With us?

Are you with us or against us?

Oh that is right you are trying to sit this one out because the Islamic radicals don’t have a problem with Western Europe.[/quote]

First of all my aplogies to Rainjack, he was not kidnapped in Germany but at the Makedonian/Albanian border.

Mohammed al-Zery and Achmed Agiza however were apparently kidnapped in Sweden, Abu Omar in Italy. That is just from one article in “Die Zeit” which is as far away from being a tabloid as Pluto is from the sun.

To Zap:

Well first of all we are, all in all, with you.

However, if the US government starts treating us like citizens of third world countries and our governments seemed to have cooperated with the US when EUROPEAN CITIZENS ARE KIDNAPPED AND BROUGHT TO EGYPT WHERE THEY ARE TORTURED we tend to think that this is a most unfortunate turn of events.

We might even get angry. Demand explanations. Oh my God, we might even start to believe that the official America is lying to us on a regular basis and therefore completely untrustworthy.

Since the EU has a little economic and political influence in a region that trusts the US even less than we do now, maybe some small gestures of good will would be in order.

LIKE NOT KIDNAPPING AND TORTURING OUR CITIZENS GOD DAMN IT!

[quote]orion wrote:

LIKE NOT KIDNAPPING AND TORTURING OUR CITIZENS GOD DAMN IT! [/quote]

Why do so many people actually believe the torture allegations?

All the terrorism suspects have to do is lie and say they were tortured and so many people get upset.

I suspect the torture incidents are much lower than the allegations.