Another Race Thread!!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

I think it’s plausible that some [relatively] intelligent blacks may have been eliminated from the gene pool within the U.S. pop, but as a general rule, I think the average Negroid is less intelligent than his European or Asian counterpart. I’m one of those who applies the characteristic to the entire race and sees it as an inherent attribute, rather than a product of selective breeding in a limited population.

What’s evident to me is that Negro’s reach physical and emotional maturity much faster than whites. They “hit the ground running”, so to speak. This alone, presents a solid case for segregating the schools.

White children are particularly naive and prone to outside influences while in their developmental stages. This is the reason why “urban culture” has had so much sway on white kids over the past two decades. And the Jews are the ones pushing it onto them - it’s quite astounding.

The problem is even further compounded among young, white women, who are inherently naive and susceptible to corruption. If you’re raising a girl these days, you’d better keep her away from the racially integrated schools, or she’ll be a whore by 16, as can be amply demonstrated by the abundance of suggestive photos of young women on the net.

[/quote]

Archie Bunker finally learned to read and write. Man, I thought that dude was dead.

Anyway, the black students I’ve sent to Notre Dame, Stanford, University of Chicago, and other such places might disagree with some of what you wrote.

22

Just to clear a few things up:

The blacks in America are direct descendants of slaves. If the more intelligent slaves were killed off (for the most part) then this theory could have some merit to it.

I’m in no way talking about evolution. I’m not even really talking about selective breeding. I’m saying all of this happened (for lack of a better term) by “accident”.

The weaker African Americans died off when being brought to America, possibly leaving only the ones with higher testosterone (using headhunters info) to make babies. These babies inherited the trait of higher test, making them better athletes.

It’s hard to call white slave owners killing off the more intelligent slaves an accident. Actually, it’s impossible. But it happened, and could be a reason that blacks have a lower intelligence quotient (on average) than whites.

As far as how important IQ tests really are, I definitely don’t think they are the end all statistic, but they provide a pretty accurate measure of how intelligent someone is. Sure, some people may be more inclined to do better on certain types of tests, but I think this IQ tests are probably the best measure we have available.

As far as blaming our school systems for America being dumb, it can hardly be the sole “entity” to blame. People are born smart, they don’t learn how to be smart. Being intelligent has little to do with how much knowledge one has, but more to do with one’s problem solving skills. Our schooling system does not help the problem because it places too much emphasis on actual knowledge rather than thinking critically.

23

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Just to clear a few things up:

The blacks in America are direct descendants of slaves.[/quote]

And slave owners.

24

I think a major reason for the disparity in the performance of black students and whites or asians may be related to DIET. Poor people eat lousy food. This lessens full development. The middle class black students I’ve had were equal to (or sometimes better than) the middle class white students.

Black people also live in less healthy places. A suburb with relatively cleaner air and water will always be cleaner than an inner city.

25

I don’t think the lack of academic performance seen in the black community has anything to do with innate genetic differences. Asians, and to a slightly lesser extent, whites, simply place huge cultural emphasis on education; blacks and hispanics, on the whole, do not – quite the opposite, in fact. I don’t think it goes any deeper than that.

And for Christ’s sake! NominalProspect, I don’t know if you’re a racist or just lack any kind of social filter, and you bring up some interesting points, but there is nothing wrong with making points in such a way so as not to be overly offensive. You are to Ron Paul what asshole drivers with “Jesus fish” emblems on their car are to Christianity…

26

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Over the holiday weekend I got into a discussion about race with one of my family members, who expressed a rather interesting view.

His view is that blacks are not as intelligent as whites because during slavery the white slave owners killed any of the blacks that could read or write, killing off most of their smarter gene pools, leaving only the less intelligent ones to make babies.

He also contends that blacks are better athletes because when whites were shipping them over here, all of the weaker ones died, leaving only the stronger, more physically dominant specimens to mate with each other.

Just wanted to throw his theory out there and see what everyone thinks. I know I’ll get a host of replies saying that blacks are just as intelligent as whites and all that. That may very well be true. I’m just throwing his POV out there to see who thinks it holds water, and why.[/quote]

Sounds like your family member might be swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool himself!

27

[quote]IvanDmitritch wrote:
I don’t think the lack of academic performance seen in the black community has anything to do with innate genetic differences. Asians, and to a slightly lesser extent, whites, simply place huge cultural emphasis on education; blacks and hispanics, on the whole, do not – quite the opposite, in fact. I don’t think it goes any deeper than that.

And for Christ’s sake! NominalProspect, I don’t know if you’re a racist or just lack any kind of social filter, and you bring up some interesting points, but there is nothing wrong with making points in such a way so as not to be overly offensive. You are to Ron Paul what asshole drivers with “Jesus fish” emblems on their car are to Christianity… [/quote]

I agree. The cultural values of Blacks and Hispanics do not value education like White or Asian. Unfortunately, mainstream society is not set up to reward those with little education (there are a few rare exceptions like athletics and entertainment).

28

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
, I think the average Negroid is less intelligent than his European or Asian counterpart. I’m one of those who applies the characteristic to the entire race and sees it as an inherent attribute, rather than a product of selective breeding in a limited population.
[/quote]

What is this based upon? Obviously if one takes academic scoring into account, then one must conclude that asians are much smarter than caucasians. I don’t believe that (bet it doesnt happen with European children who get, in general, a great secondary schooling). We can find plenty of smart black people. Look at the african students who come here to study engineering/science. Also look at the blacks that come from middle class families.

I am 48 and can remember being in the first grade when the schools where I grew up were first being integrated. Do you suppose that the legacy of slavery and the equivalent of apartheid in this country (which only ended in my lifetime) might not have had an effect?

Let’s see. I went to school with blacks and grew up with them. I did not see this disproportionate physical and emotional maturity of which you speak. So I dont find your case for segregation very solid. Even if it were true (that they develop physically and emotionally much faster, so what?)

Girls mature physically and emotionally much quicker than boys. Should they be segregated also? Better yet, let’s dress them in birkas, so they wont exercise their evil on us. Sound familiar?

Ok, explain that one. How are the Jews imposing urban culture on youths?

What you mean to say is white women who sleep with black guys, dont you? It is a normal reaction when races have been seperated (by the apartheid rules that you would like to re-impose) that they should be enthralled by each other.
Of course, that’s not all. MAYBE they actually like each other in many of those cases.

Unlike what most racial purists claim, it would seem that broadening the gene pool is a healthy thing.

In addition to that, like it or not, if you are an American white, chances are that you have “Negroid” blood in you. Don’t like them apples, move to Iceland (of course, you would only be introducing “Negroid” blood there, should you decide to reproduce).

29

This thread is awesome.

[quote]Nominal wrote:
I think it’s plausible that some [relatively] intelligent blacks may have been eliminated from the gene pool within the U.S. pop, but as a general rule, I think the average Negroid is less intelligent than his European or Asian counterpart. I’m one of those who applies the characteristic to the entire race and sees it as an inherent attribute, rather than a product of selective breeding in a limited population.[/quote]

When making an academic point it is important not to use the term “negroid.” For some reason it isn’t PC. In fact, it’s best not to label black people at all just to be safe.

30

[quote]entheogens wrote:
…

What is this based upon? Obviously if one takes academic scoring into account, then one must conclude that asians are much smarter than caucasians. I don’t believe that (bet it doesnt happen with European children who get, in general, a great secondary schooling). …

[/quote]

The latest study I just read about indicates that The US students do quite well, better than much of Europe (including England if I recall correctly) but behind much of Asia.

This is in definite contrast to many of the studies that show the US lagging.

I hope I saved the link on my home computer.

31

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Anyway, the black students I’ve sent to Notre Dame, Stanford, University of Chicago, and other such places might disagree with some of what you wrote.
[/quote]

…and don’t forget all the below average white kids in your classes…

32

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

The latest study I just read about indicates that The US students do quite well, better than much of Europe (including England if I recall correctly) but behind much of Asia.

This is in definite contrast to many of the studies that show the US lagging.

I hope I saved the link on my home computer.[/quote]

Please do. I heard a debate on Science Talk (NPR) the other day about this (dont know if it is the same study) but it occured to me that some of the American experts were “parsing” the information regarding American test results in favor of Americans. The people debating them were eating these “experts” alive (at least that was my impression).

Having gone to school here in the US and Europe (France), I can tell you that in general one receives an EXCELLENT secondary education in France compared to here. Obviously, I can’t speak about all european countries. My children go to school here in Palo Alto, CA. The schools here are SUPER, but I dont think that is generally the case throughout the country.

33

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Over the holiday weekend I got into a discussion about race with one of my family members, who expressed a rather interesting view.

His view is that blacks are not as intelligent as whites because during slavery the white slave owners killed any of the blacks that could read or write, killing off most of their smarter gene pools, leaving only the less intelligent ones to make babies.

He also contends that blacks are better athletes because when whites were shipping them over here, all of the weaker ones died, leaving only the stronger, more physically dominant specimens to mate with each other.

Just wanted to throw his theory out there and see what everyone thinks. I know I’ll get a host of replies saying that blacks are just as intelligent as whites and all that. That may very well be true. I’m just throwing his POV out there to see who thinks it holds water, and why.[/quote]

The scores don’t seem to support this theory, as far as IQ test anyways. Individuals of recent African descent/African Americans( who also have approximately 25 percent caucasian ancestry) on average, as a group, score on IQ tests right between caucasians and Africans.

As to the athletic performance, Jon Entine covers this in his book TABOO. As of 2001 something like 494 out of 500 of the best times in the 100 meter dash are held by those of recent West African descent including African Americans of West African descent. A single group, the Kalenjin, of Kenya hold a similarly absurdly high proportion of distance running events wins. Less delved into but mentioned in passing are the domination of Eurasians in olympic lifting, and, I believe, the Chinese in flexibility/gymnastics.

There are many articles on it at his website: http://www.jonentine.com/entine_file.htm

He also details how expressing the “breeder” hypothesis that you mention lost one white newscaster his job (for being racist) but was actually the opinion held by distinguished black anthropologist William Montague Cobb.

This is a good example of why progress in understanding these small but significant differences in modern human populations is so slow. Only some people are allowed to hold certain opinions and any mention of it at all is held to be “racist.” It is very difficult to impossible for most people including scientists to deal with the fact that people are not inherently physically or even mentally equal but still are held to have the same equal rights and privileges (in our society anyways). Having a genetic advantage for explosiveness is an advantage, it makes you superior at sports requiring explosiveness. It doesn’t make you a superior person. The same for the big bad one that every freaks out about…intelligence. There are plenty of people smarter than I am who are real *$$holes to everyone around them being harmful, hateful, oppressive, etc… I have met many people who aren’t as good in math, reading, comprehension or whatever as I am and yet are very good, decent, respected people who take care of there families and do little harm to anyone.

34

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Your relative’s hypothesis could be checked by comparing scores between societies, specifically those where black people were not oppressed and those where they were. Unfortunately that’d be very hard to do.

Black men DO have higher levels of Testosterone (using PSA testing as a guide) and this may explain athleticism.

[/quote]

Not only do people of recent African descent tend to have a higher level of T, they also (due to their genes) have a greater sensitivity to it. Great for performance, bigger muscles, etc. (lucky them) but also “great” for a much higher rate of prostate cancer (no thanks).

35

[quote]entheogens wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

The latest study I just read about indicates that The US students do quite well, better than much of Europe (including England if I recall correctly) but behind much of Asia.

This is in definite contrast to many of the studies that show the US lagging.

I hope I saved the link on my home computer.

Please do. I heard a debate on Science Talk (NPR) the other day about this (dont know if it is the same study) but it occured to me that some of the American experts were “parsing” the information regarding American test results in favor of Americans. The people debating them were eating these “experts” alive (at least that was my impression).

Having gone to school here in the US and Europe (France), I can tell you that in general one receives an EXCELLENT secondary education in France compared to here. Obviously, I can’t speak about all european countries. My children go to school here in Palo Alto, CA. The schools here are SUPER, but I dont think that is generally the case throughout the country.

[/quote]

I think parsing the data is only fair as the US schools are often set up to mainstream slower students while in some European countries (Germany) they separate them.

36

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:

This is a good example of why progress in understanding these small but significant differences in modern human populations is so slow. Only some people are allowed to hold certain opinions and any mention of it at all is held to be “racist.” .[/quote]

I agree that science could be brow-beaten (or rather is brow-beaten) into not researching certain issues because of “political correctness” issues. However, I also think that it is difficult to distinguish between socio-cultural influences and purely biological ones.

In spite of any biological differences that there may or may not be, there is no doubt that there is/has been institutionalized racism in this country. Even if there are biological differences (across broad swaths of population), I think most of us agree that they are slight and that we need to work hard to ensure a good education and fair opportunities to all, regardless of race.

However, the one poster seems to believe that reactionary social action needs to be taken based on presumed biological differences.
According to him, segregation needs to be re-institutionalized and morganic relationships need to be halted (probably by law). His paranoia about a “Jewish conspiracy” has more popular appeal than I would like to believe.

I guess the knee-jerk fear that many people have vis a vis discussion of possible biological racial differences stems from the idea that if such biological traits are discovered they would be used to justify such measures as proposed by the one poster. Such fear is unfortunate but understandable.

37

[quote]entheogens wrote:
Grimnuruk wrote:

This is a good example of why progress in understanding these small but significant differences in modern human populations is so slow. Only some people are allowed to hold certain opinions and any mention of it at all is held to be “racist.” .

I agree that science could be brow-beaten (or rather is brow-beaten) into not researching certain issues because of “political correctness” issues. However, I also think that it is difficult to distinguish between socio-cultural influences and purely biological ones.

In spite of any biological differences that there may or may not be, there is no doubt that there is/has been institutionalized racism in this country. Even if there are biological differences (across broad swaths of population), I think most of us agree that they are slight and that we need to work hard to ensure a good education and fair opportunities to all, regardless of race.

However, the one poster seems to believe that reactionary social action needs to be taken based on presumed biological differences.
According to him, segregation needs to be re-institutionalized and morganic relationships need to be halted (probably by law). His paranoia about a “Jewish conspiracy” has more popular appeal than I would like to believe.

I guess the knee-jerk fear that many people have vis a vis discussion of possible biological racial differences stems from the idea that if such biological traits are discovered they would be used to justify such measures as proposed by the one poster. Such fear is unfortunate but understandable.

[/quote]

Oh sure, some (most?) people are always looking for a stick to beat you with and this is a popular one. My personal philosophy is: grow up and think critically. Sadly, most people are either not interested in or are incapable of doing this.

So we see sound bites and dumbed down journalistic interpretations of science completely stripped of their meaning and used as weapons much as chimpanzees pick up various pieces of their immediate environment (branches, rocks, each other) to make threat displays with.

38

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
So we see sound bites and dumbed down journalistic interpretations of science completely stripped of their meaning and used as weapons much as chimpanzees pick up various pieces of their immediate environment (branches, rocks, each other) to make threat displays with.[/quote]

Sadly, this is a correct depiction of the political discourse in the United States in general. Anyone who goes on television dare not go into a substantive discussion of the matter, because whoever is interviewing or debating him will quickly cut him off with a cheap, emotional sound byte.

39

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
I was saying that a single generation of forced breeding couldn’t produce any kind of significant evolutionary change because of the ridiculous amount of genes that go into determining ones intelligence, ability to learn, and athletic ability.

What are you talking about? How do you manage only one generation in 200+ years of slavery?

Evolution takes thousands if not millions of years. Not one generation of selective breeding.

Bullshit. You can see major changes in as little as 3-4 generation intervals. You are talking about natural selection versus selective breeding. Both contribute to evolution - but at much, much different speeds. [/quote]

Ok, I miss worded, sheesh. Many generations. So you’re telling me we totally eliminated some odd thousand or two genetic sequences that could possibly lead to a less than “average” athletic ability? Alright then.

That’s like saying Jews are intelligent because the holocaust killed all the stupid ones dumb enough to stay in Nazi Germany. And, for the record, that statement is equally as stupid.

What I’m saying it after the 3-4 generations of slavery (which did not TOTALLY control breeding as you are p[postulating), their have been 3-4 generations of completely uncontrolled breeding. The chances that such a significant change in overall genetic structure was made in such a large group of people is implausible.

40

For anyone seriously interested in IQ and intelligence,and the impact on society and life, there is a really interesting forum this month at Cato Unbound:

http://www.cato-unbound.org/issues/the-iq-conundrum

Here’s an interesting essay from that forum on race and IQ - arguing that we shouldn’t be looking into it:

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2007/11/21/eric-turkheimer/race-and-iq/

and a response:

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2007/11/26/stephen-j-ceci/what-is-the-alternative-to-civil-discourse/

This one is really good: analyzing what the IQ gap means:

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2007/11/26/linda-s-gottfredson/flynn-ceci-and-turkheimer-on-race-and-intelligence-opening-moves/