An Illuminati Primer by Henry Makow

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
113

The guy says the area of all damaged floors burned across the entire surface evenly and it would all give out at the same time when the plane clearly hit one sided especially the second one. Look at the video anyone and you’ll see in fact the fire doesn’t burn evenly and actually was almost offwhen the building imploded on itself. It is a one sided failure and the top of the building rotates outwards and would continue to do so if it didn’t discipate magically.

Hefurther argues very heavy buildings can only fall on there foot print when anyone who has seen a controlled demolition of a plant especially of the thing smoke comes out of… (you know the word) knows he lies. He says it’s to to the base and compares it to a glass of water. The smoke thing has a surface which is circular giving it a broader base to height ratio than something the wtc in alot of cases.

200 feet wide 1400 height compared to 20 feet wide and 100 high for example. They make these things fall over to a side just like a tree would, becuase it takes less explosives. Just because the building is bigger that What he says is utter nonsense. MIT or not MIT. He knows that is bullshit.

Anyone who ever put an axe to a tree knows what a on sided failure looks like.

Has nothing to do with size either like he claims. Physics don’t change with the size of the object.

Besides even if the floors would give away the steel cage structure in the middle is just supporting the floors they are not bind together. They can fall down without the steel structure falling with it. He doesn’t even talk about that…

Imagine a tree dear reader and let’s say the branches hold the weight of the floors and give out would you expect the trunk to come down, too? This very smart Professor would. That’s enough to qualify as a complete idiot.

There is tons more go through the so called nutjob threads and see for yourself. Tell me who has the better points. The guy that claims the tree would implode on itself and magically the trunk would come down with the leafs that gave out. That is beyond lying. Besides one of the links is from a reputable source another professor who is really an expert on the matter.

So what weighs more a professor or a professor? Clearly the professor you like huh even if his qualification is very different from that needed and he has big flaws in his story?

What’s with vroom? Where did you go buddy?

114

Oh, look, something relavent.

Dude, the fact you have chosen to believe it was a conspiracy is certainly your option.

Perhaps you should focus on getting your education instead of spending all your time reading nutbar discussion groups devoted to conspiracy theories?

You’ll waste your life doing that…

Where am I? I’m doing weekend things. Chores around the house. Putting food in the fridge. Buying cat litter. Changing the oil in the car. You know, real life. Try it some time.

115

[quote]vroom wrote:
What’s with vroom? Where did you go buddy?

Oh, look, something relavent.

Dude, the fact you have chosen to believe it was a conspiracy is certainly your option.

Perhaps you should focus on getting your education instead of spending all your time reading nutbar discussion groups devoted to conspiracy theories?

You’ll waste your life doing that…

Where am I? I’m doing weekend things. Chores around the house. Putting food in the fridge. Buying cat litter. Changing the oil in the car. You know, real life. Try it some time.[/quote]

As long as i am not sure what the truth is i will always be interested in facts and theories about this or any connected topic, because i can get to the point where bio weapons are used on my loved ones and i am forced to live a life i despise. The little time i invest is less then the time i invest for sports or learning. I don’t know if some of the work that is being done by other people involved in some of the thories qualifies them as nutjobs. Just because someone stands up for what they believe doesn’t make them stupid. How you can change a whole host of people like that is strange to me.

Real life is great and it’s good that you have your life doing useful things and i do that, too. Not everyone gets freaked out by this stuff.

About wasting your life. What makes you so sure one would in fact waste their lifes?

I know what you talk about though. If i fight for the truth and fail my own education e.g. what good would my accoplishment be? On the other hand what good is it doing what you love if you believe there is a chance it gets take away from you.

I would not want my future kids to suffer their entire life because all i cared about was myself.

I believe everyone can make a difference so i think everyone needs to care. Isn’t that why someone is interested in politics in the first place. You spend alot of time here and read alot of
stuff, why do you do that? The lawn needs cutting, the T-Nation political forum needs your opinion? Again are you sure none of that is true. How so?

116

23and,

Since you are so earnest, I’ll answer, again.

Just as in all things there is only so much any one person can do. So, with that premise, where do you intend to spend your energies?

Yes, I have an ability to consider conspiracy theories, but at some point I have to limit the sources I am even willing to read and consider. I can’t read them all.

So, with respect to your sources, they are on the bottom of the totem pole.

If I was obsessed with this topic and felt it was likely to be reality, then I might invest the time poking around at the bottom of trash cans (public threads with public opinions) looking for a smoking gun.

Personally, I’ll let some obsessed crazy person go out and find that smoking gun, report it to some credible source, prove to that source that it is indeed credible, then have that source choose to spread the word.

Really, how many issues in the world can you seriously dig into? Am I concerned about rights issues? Yes, of course I am. I talk about that all the time here with respect to actions that are being discussed in mainstream media.

Perhaps there is important information happening out of the mainstream, but if so, it will work its way there at some point. Personally, I’m not the person that is going to do the heavy lifting to make it happen.

If I were, I’d have to figure out which causes I believed in, wouldn’t I?

Should I be trumpeting to the world the ills of Africa? Should I be fighting for the poor in North America? What about the underpaid child workers in third world countries? Maybe pollution and global warming? Perhaps working towards alternative energy resources? Recycling? Bird flu? Hurrican relief efforts? Earthquake relief efforts? Personally hunting Osama? Truth in advertising? Corruption in government? Child abuse in my home town? Maybe human rights abuse in China or North Korea? Hawaiian succession? Tsunami preparedness? North American farming industry? The lumber dispute between Canada and the US?

Which item do you suggest I devote the rest of my life to in order to change the world?

I don’t have a problem considering issues, forming opinions and sharing them, but my resources are pretty damned limited. Most of the time I have to worry about either making a living or looking after the real world issues that keep my life operating smoothly – most people do.

We all have some small amount of energy to invest in other issues. If you choose to invest all your energy in a certain area, don’t be offended if other people think you are a bit strange. It is up to you, not us, to convince us that we need to spend energy in something you have found out there.

So far, you aren’t cutting it. Complaining that we aren’t paying attention isn’t going to do it. Giving theories that don’t really show much won’t do it. Using analogies that don’t stand up to scrutiny won’t do it.

Get someone who put together your supposed conspiracy to leak documents and name names… that might get attention. Short of that, nobody is going to care until some very serious heavyweights are convinced to carry the torch you are waving around.

In my opinion, and your mileage may vary, your time is better spent elsewhere, in areas where you can have an effect on something… even if only your own education and future.

117

[quote]battlelust wrote:
I think Vegita has hit on some really important points. First, its obvious that the aliens do have trans-dimensional technology. However, the debate still rages as to their exact relationship with the technology. I am of the opinion that the Archons, or ruling class aliens, are multi-dimensional in their very nature. That is, when we encounter a demon or alien, we’re only interacting with a portion of its being…a 4D shadow, if you will.

Additionally, its important that we remember Arthur C. Clarke’s classic line: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” In other words, these aliens or gods have been breeding and controlling us for thousands of years. However, until very recently, we identified their allies amongst us as witches and them as devils. The ancient magical techniques are generally based on trans-dimensional gateways/communications that use applied non-Euclidean mathematics. The advance of science and math in the 20th century has increased alien activity in our skies and in our societies.

Really, we have no escape. There is no war. Do the cattle fight a war against the ranchers?

OR,
I’ve been wicked into H.P. Lovecraft and Grant Morrison recently and their stories have infected my reality tunnel.[/quote]

“I love Big Brother”

Are you invisible?

118

[quote]vroom wrote:
23and,

So, with respect to your sources, they are on the bottom of the totem pole.

Personally, I’ll let some obsessed crazy person go out and find that smoking gun, report it to some credible source, prove to that source that it is indeed credible, then have that source choose to spread the word.

Really, how many issues in the world can you seriously dig into? Am I concerned about rights issues? Yes, of course I am. I talk about that all the time here with respect to actions that are being discussed in mainstream media.

Perhaps there is important information happening out of the mainstream, but if so, it will work its way there at some point. Personally, I’m not the person that is going to do the heavy lifting to make it happen.

If I were, I’d have to figure out which causes I believed in, wouldn’t I?

Should I be trumpeting to the world the ills of Africa? Should I be fighting for the poor in North America? What about the underpaid child workers in third world countries? Maybe pollution and global warming? Perhaps working towards alternative energy resources? Recycling? Bird flu? Hurrican relief efforts? Earthquake relief efforts? Personally hunting Osama? Truth in advertising? Corruption in government? Child abuse in my home town? Maybe human rights abuse in China or North Korea? Hawaiian succession? Tsunami preparedness? North American farming industry? The lumber dispute between Canada and the US?

Which item do you suggest I devote the rest of my life to in order to change the world?

So far, you aren’t cutting it. Complaining that we aren’t paying attention isn’t going to do it. Giving theories that don’t really show much won’t do it. Using analogies that don’t stand up to scrutiny won’t do it.

[/quote]

Bottom of the totem pole. What’s at the top Bush? Funny thing is even if i did put that together you won’t read it (you had the time to read my post yet clicking on a link and reading 10 lines was too much for you), no big printer will publish it (media ownership issue). I posted a professors opinion that is really an expert in this field, see and still you don’t care.

People did expect to hear bad stuff about Hitler in the German mainstream. His book “Mein Kampf” had alot of crazy stuff in it just like some of the current administration’s publications
do. That never happend though. The media pushed him just as bad as the SS. Their respective owners gave him money to establish a paramilitary power just like rich english and american people. The Bushs had to give up alot of the family fortune when that came out in order to keep out of jail for treason.

Listen, your entitled to your opinion and i won’t change that. Maybe i’ll just except that fact and move on as it’s really starting to waste my time here.

One more thing, you don’t need to save Africa to make a difference. Just make one in your everyday life. It starts with being nice to the paper boy and ends with refusing a one world currency. You know how to do the kind of stuff i ask yout to, if you ever cared about someone. If 6 billion people change a little in their behaviour it would be a giant leap for mankind. Maybe i am crazy but i believe this can happen.

Again thanks you answering in an honest way.

119

[quote]I posted a professors opinion that is really an expert in this field, see and still you don’t care.
[/quote]

A professor? Really? Wow! Professors are never politically motivated and they know everything - don’t they?

Anyway, unless this is a second professor, someone posted a link to his material a while ago.

What makes you think you are the only person with a direct line to the truth?

120

[quote]vroom wrote:
I posted a professors opinion that is really an expert in this field, see and still you don’t care.

A professor? Really? Wow! Professors are never politically motivated and they know everything - don’t they?

Anyway, unless this is a second professor, someone posted a link to his material a while ago.

What makes you think you are the only person with a direct line to the truth?[/quote]

So i am stupid for challanging a professors view that is no expert and makes mistakes in his analysis when he is clearly financially motivated but you say professors can be politically motivated and therefore this other professors opinion is worth nothing. I don’t get it any more. It’s like you got your view and bend the facts to fit in. What’s the point of that. It is supposed to work the other way around.

I don’t know what the truth is.

I am just trying to find reasons why most of the conspiracy talk is just a lie or something.

I expected the theorists to use strawman arguments and the like but actually the officials do.

Could it be they lie to cover up that they did it themselves? Everyone is like hell no, when that is exactly what the CIA does all the time all over the world.
Then they say they want to get rid of most of the population of the world and need all the power concentrated when history has clearly shown neither has ever been a good idea.
Then they call for a new pearl harbour (think neo-cons surrounding the pentagon and government) to achieve that process to power and suddenly the world trade center comes down.

The laws giving them dictatorship powers are being put in place. You guys don’t give a shit when i tell you this. Taht alone should make you very angry. How about a reaction like:
What are they taking my freedoms away for? I am not the terrorists.

Everyone calls bullshit on the conspiracy guys, but:

The Illuminati still exist (allseeing eye and pyramid on the dollar and also the owl which is the Bilderberg sign, the lodges and all that are proof enough for me).

Whatever the TriCo wants is being done. Opposing political party members are in secret clubs together and no matter who is at the top politics don’t change a great deal.
The banking system is responsible for all the debth and therefore people loosing jobs. The education system of almost any big country is set up so that most people fail to get a good education and therefore noone realizes.

We had a social democratic government with the greens in it and the biggest thing they did was almost getting rid of any kind of income tax for huge companies. They made it easier to fire people and failed to tackle the social system sufficiently. We do move towards a controlled police state (secret introduction of thumbprint passport with RFID chip, supermarket thumbprint paying stations, media pushing the microchip for tracking children, etc. show signs of that, safety clearly doesn’t improve with the new passport, i read all the arguments)
Those are nothing but measures to control people.

The EU powers grow rapidly and you do move towards a fascist state very rapidly. Will you even need a new reason to go invade another country? Syria and Pakistan have been laid out as the road map already. Will, they hid Osama, be enough reason to invade Pakistan? Are the gonna take away the freedom of speech when people oppose?, they are already getting you book and internet records and mine too for that matter.

What is going on right now? A secret secret service is being called for to protect pharmacy. Laws are being passed, so that in case tests on population fail noone can be held accountable. Why would you do that if you don’t plan on using bioweapons on your own population?

Then i come along and call this kind of stuff fascist. Hell i am german i should know what that is better then anyone.

The banking system is responsible for all the debth and therefore people loosing jobs. The education system of almost any big country is set up so that most people fail to get a good education and therefore noone realizes.

Politicians don’t seem to care or are just afraid. I watched the Bundestag (our parlament) discussion on debth. They never even mentioned the reasons for the debth in the first place. All they do is talk about how to cut down social systems and shift money around so we don’t have to get in deeper debth than what is necessary anyway.

Even the almost communist left wing formeer PDS which stems from the communist SED (that lead eastern germany before in 1989 we got to be one country again) that used to have a very different banking system doesn’t point out the very real alternatives. They are busy driving Audi and Mercedes cars paid for by the people they should really oppose. That is just a fucking joke if you ask me.

All we need to get by without destroying the social system and getting into people’s pockets would be a growth of about 3,5-4% depending on the source. We failed to reach this during the last i don’t know, almost as long as i have been alive. They reached an agreement now and it looks like we are getting anther huge credit that is going to further our problems in the future, when all it would take would be an interest about as low as 1,5%. We would then reach about 3% of growth according to any source you ask and people could actually get a job again. As soon as the government over here was in place what the EZB (european central bank) did do was raise interest to 2,25% claiming otherwise we would get inflation. We never really had any inflation though.

Makes you wonder if that is really true. how do i know how much money there is? Will the price of bread or a car got up?
I mean how do we know when inflation hits? They are the ones secretely getting the numbers. All they tell you is: Oh there might be inflation if we don’t do this. That’s not good enough for me. It would be if the government controlled this but the bank is private. If they wanted to fuck everryone up it is not like they couldn’t.

The Euro is getting stronger and stronger and really we don’t want that as an export nation, so where is the feared inflation here?

They also raised the Mehrwertsteuer by 3% to 18% (this is the tax you pay on all products you buy except food which stays at 7%) This raises job costs again and leaves people with less money to spend which in turn presses on the national growth. How does this help? What do they do with this money? Is it being invested to help making jobs? We just do counterproductive stuff. In this case we use the money to pay for interest as well as social security. How about we invest that into stocks of the big german companies to make jobs safer or into education or something like that?

It’s mostly counterproductive just like what the U.S. do is often counterproductive. Just read the number of threats this is stated in as an opinion by someone. Of course you will always have someone saying that but why do they most likely have better or at least very good arguments?

Only huge difference is see in the big picture when i compare Europe to the U.S. is, the Federal bank lowers the interest further and your economy works great sometimes like during Clinton’s presidency. You then get rid of alot of debth, we just get another credit.

I mean c’mon, they used to put books on the full reserve system on the index over here and then burned them? I have never seen this kind of stuff never heard about it, but it seems true. I tried to find one in the university library. they have books on the role of disabled people in Hollywood movies in the 30’s but othing on the full reserve system? I am talking billions of books here. The library is huuuuuuge. We are a said to be a working democracy though.

Whatever we vote for nothing really changes. The rich get richer and the poor people suffer as more and more of the social security system is being removed while you never really had one in the first place.

I can understand how americans are going to say well maybe all that is because you afford to have a system like that. Let me tell you the german rentenfond is the most successful fond in all of the world though. They should have made more money with it then what would have been possible if u used it privately. Over the course of 50 years that should make a ton of money. Should easily be enough to pay for twice as money people as it used to in the beginning. They made huge profits off the money they get and continue to do so, yet supposedly it is such a big problem to pay the people that build this country their dues now, so they keep lowering it (the Rente we call it) while raising the cost for everything.

Then when they explain this to the public (you need some sort of reasoning) they lie, lie and lie about the facts.

Just like spreading freedom through force is a lie. Not much changed for the average iraqi. Did you see the CNN roundtable on Iraq with people from Iraq? The only one that said they needed america in there and the new government is gonna do a good job, was the CNN guy from Iraq.

Everybody else was like, we want to take part in this… The U.S. superimpose a government and the people get no say in this…being cut off by an seemingly angry host whenever they started to ramble about the U.S. He was like let’s not talk
about us, let’s hear what you want to do. Hypocrisy at it’s finest.

To sum it up, noone can know what is going on for sure but clearly people are being lied to all over and whenever i look into something i find it hard to follow the official line of reasoning.
Whistleblowers get fired or killed. This stuff just gets me mad but you know let’s not talk about this any more.

I take it close to noone is interested
anyway. Sry for making you read this, if you do.

So just look into vaccines when they unload the bioweapons on Kanada vroom, before you go get a shot just find out what’s in that bitch, that’s all i want you to do. Oppose a one world electronic currency and don’t get microchipped. You can have a different opinion on all the rest but when you see any one of these things happen seemingly unconnected to anything take a step back and look at it again from an open-minded perspective.

Just take that in consideration. That’s not much to ask of anyone. Even someone who sees the need to invade other countries for the oil and wants to spread democracy by force. Someone that believes the government should have almost unlimited powers and one world government is a good idea. Even for those people, getting microchipped and having only one way to pay is clearly a big disadvantage and noone wants to die of cancer due to a vaccine they never needed.

Oh back to the conspiracy talk: LEt me add this fact: Tamoflue money (bird flu) goes right in Cheneys pocket. That’s also just another coincidence of course.

121

No, I’m saying somebody else already posted a link to your professors opinion on this site. That means it has already been available for perusal and you aren’t the first person to mention it.

Now, I did go and look at it at that time. I see no reason to go look at it again unless you’ve found a new professor which has new information.

Honestly dude, you need to back off when people don’t reach the same conclusions you do. You have your view and you bend things around to fit it… from everyone elses point of view.

You, personally, are not challenging anyones view. You aren’t refuting anything put forth by anyone. You are parrotting “information” you have found on the Internet. That is a far different animal indeed.

I’m open to new interpretations of the events. I’ve seen arguments that certain folks were warned and evacuated and all that. I’ve seen rate of collapse theories. I’ve seen claims that agents from a certain country have routinely been forging papers and that the ID’s were probably planted. I’ve seen all kinds of things – before you suggest I am unwilling to even look.

None of it represents proof. It is all supposition. Now, you go and get a real smoking gun and I’ll go look at it. Until then, you need to stop hanging your hat on other peoples credentials, there are a lot of people with credentials that are just as wacko as everybody else.

See, I’m lambasted simply because I’m willing to consider just about every option. You however seem unwilling to consider the option that it was indeed a terrorist attack. The size of the problem involved if it was not is so freaking huge, you can’t just have a few folks throwing theories around and expect anyone to think anything of it.

Do you see what I’m saying? There is a difference between holding the ideas up for analysis and claiming your version of the facts must be right. By all means, research things to your hearts content, but if you choose to believe Internet sources it is simply matter of which side you either want to believe or which side you read first.

If you are going to claim the earth is in fact flat, you’d damn well get some pretty substantial proof to offer before you can expect people to buy into it. Now, if you were telling me it was above zero in the antarctic right now, I wouldn’t really consider it momentous nd I would probably be willing to take your word for it.

Now, would you stop whining about how unfair the world is because nobody is reaching the same conclusions as you? Go find something better – if that is how you wish to spend your days on the planet – otherwise, be relegated to the crackpot pile of unproven conspiracy theories.

That is not where I intend to spend my days, thank you very much.

123

I wasn’t wining, but that’s cool.

I see what you are saying vroom and you are propably right.

I was in the wrong suggesting you wouldn’t look the evidence.

If you are interested check out the movie “911 Eye Witness” for some more smoking guns.

I am not trying to force my opinion on anyone. Just feel the need to talk about it.

Now about the german’s like conpiracy talk. I don’t know about that, i don’t recall the BBC one. I remember seeing that though. But for all i know there have been only something like 10 productions out of germany touching the 911 issues. There have been over 600 from the U.S. There is about 80 million people over here and about 290 million over in america. While it might be that germans are in general more interested in politics (i said, in general, there is still a big chunk of very intelligent americans very interested in politics and their number is way bigger than the number of people involved to the same extent over here, but i am saying the regular guy on the streets) and go over the Nazi stuff repeatedly for several months in history class (7th grade, 9th grade, 10th or 11th grade and sometimes 13th grade). We learn over and over that you need to speak up so i see why that could be. I don’t know about germans quick to jump the gun on stuff like this. I sure don’t see any of that in the media over here. I am yet to see or hear about a conspiracy talker at any university around here, not even on local radio or anything. They might be there but they are surely not very organised and they fail to reach anyone. I know that Schr?der and Merkel both attended Bilderberg meetings but i never heard anything else, while skull and bones brothers Kerry and Bush reached mainstream TV in the U.S. To conclude i have to say i don’t think germans are very different from americans when it comes to conspiracies.

124

[quote]Bikhlejser wrote:
We are not unaware of the crafy conspiracy from clever Canucks. Your insideous plot to infiltrate our country with sketch comedians to condition Americans to talk funny will not work. I will never say “Oot and aboot!” Back to the tundra with all of you! And please take Alan Thicke back. Please.[/quote]

Bryan Adams, too…

125

The elves, the ELVES!

128

SPIEGEL-BESTSELLER

Belletristik 49/2005

Platz/
Vorwoche Autor/in Titel verlegt bei Preis Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop

  1. unver?ndert (1) Joanne K. Rowling Harry Potter und der Halbblutprinz Carlsen 22,50 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  2. unver?ndert (2) Daniel Kehlmann Die Vermessung der Welt Rowohlt 19,90 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  3. unver?ndert (3) Dan Brown Sakrileg L?bbe 19,90 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  4. aufgestiegen (5) Arno Geiger Es geht uns gut Hanser 21,50 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  5. abgestiegen (4) Ken Follett Eisfieber L?bbe 22,90 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  6. aufgestiegen (7) Dan Brown Diabolus L?bbe 19,90 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  7. abgestiegen (6) Diana Gabaldon Ein Hauch von Schnee und Asche Blanvalet 24,90 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  8. unver?ndert (8) Fran?ois Lelord Hectors Reise Piper 16,90 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  9. unver?ndert (9) Joanne K. Rowling Harry Potter und der Orden des Ph?nix Carlsen 28,50 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  10. aufgestiegen (13) Joanne K. Rowling Harry Potter und die Kammer des Schreckens Carlsen 14,50 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  11. aufgestiegen (14) Leonie Swann Glennkill Goldmann 17,90 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  12. abgestiegen (11) Joanne K. Rowling Harry Potter und der Feuerkelch Carlsen 22,50 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  13. aufgestiegen (17) Joanne K. Rowling Harry Potter und der Gefangene von Askaban Carlsen 15,50 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  14. aufgestiegen (19) Joanne K. Rowling Harry Potter und der Stein der Weisen Carlsen 14,50 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  15. aufgestiegen (18) Jan Weiler Antonio im Wunderland Kindler 16,90 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  16. neu eingestiegen Irene Dische Gro?mama packt aus Hoffmann und Campe 23 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  17. abgestiegen (10) Steve Tesich Ein letzter Sommer Kein & Aber 22,80 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  18. abgestiegen (12) Jilliane Hoffman Morpheus Wunderlich 19,90 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  19. wieder eingestiegen Kate Mosse Das verlorene Labyrinth Droemer 22,90 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop
  20. unver?ndert (20) Susanne Fr?hlich Familienpackung W. Kr?ger 16,90 Euro Bestellen im SPIEGEL-Shop

Amazon Top 100:

  1. Illuminati von Dan Brown (doesn’t talk about 9/11 at all)
  2. Illuminati, 6 Audio-CDs von Dan Brown, Wolfgang Pampel
  3. Sakrileg, 4 Audio-CDs von Dan Brown, Wolfgang Pampel (don’t know if this even talks about the Illuminati)

That’s it. Not even a single 9/11 book in two huge bestseller lists.

129

[quote]Bikhlejser wrote:
I couldn’t find the BBC article I refered to, but…

Not in the Sachb?cher Liste either.

Mr von Bulow’s book, The CIA and September 11, has sold more than 100,000 copies, a vast print run for Germany.

That is true but that are .125 % of the population. Just a comparison. The Harry Potter book sold over 50 million copies in Germany. I guess we are all far more fascinated with witches?

http://iafrica.com/news/worldnews/268874.htm

It says German mainstream media knocked that down pretty much. All these people went on television once and never again. A thoroughly prepared group of so called specialists took them apart. They didn’t tackle the issues though. Just like you guys do they know the answer and have all kinds of defense mechanisms:

Look i just read the ARD (german tv channel) paid 6 guys for 6 month to go out and find evidence of false facts before they let B?low on the air. Then they never even talked about most of the things. All they talked about were some false facts. I have been proven wrong on issues. Anyone has. Does that automatically discredit everything anyone writes. So when i say there were no WMD in Iraq does that lend credibility to go on saying the government never told a single truth?

Look at what you posted this is the kind of stuff they said on the air:

…
Social psychologist Heiner Keupp told AFP that conspiracy theories served a basic human need, leading to the remarkable success of such books.

“People have the feeling after reading them that they understand something about this complicated and inscrutable world,” Keupp said, adding that a healthy dose of paranoia was also usually part of the equation.

…
He also saw cultural ignorance as a factor in explaining why Germany has given fertile ground to theories that seem unthinkable to most.

“We don’t understand Islam and have no idea about the lives of the attackers. That is why we prefer to look in our own cultural circles for possible causes for the incomprehensible,” he said.

And so on.

That’s how they make you turn a blind eye to what people have to say. I would rather see them discuss some of the main issues. Why not prove the claim the plane was flown by remote to be false? Why not go after the main arguments and refute those?

9/11 Conspiracy Theories Popular in Germany
Two years after the horrible events, it may surprise you to learn that many Germans believe a lot of crackpot nonsense (I gotta add something here already: that’s kind of harsh, after all building 7 came down 100m in 4.5s and that is faster than a fishing weight dropped at the same height. Is that crackpot or just what happend, for example)
about September 11, 2001. Recent reports in Newsweek, the Wall Street Journal, and other periodicals paint a disturbing picture.
(Exactly they paint the picture. In reality don’t nobody care what happend on 9/11)
From Newsweek: "To get a sense of how deep mistrust of the United States runs in Germany, take a look at the bookshelves.

(That is just plain bullshit. I just did look at them, no conspiracy talk among the top 100 at all. What really is the deal here is that Germany was one of the first to say we don’t want to attack the Serbs. I’ll give you the background to what you seemingly missed here: Germany stated very early, that it is Yugoslavia’s deal what happens there. The U.N. went in (pressured by the U.S.,basically they said: we will go in with or without you, it’s just a matter of whether you want the U.S. to pay for the UN any more or not) and nevertheless German planes knocked out the radar stations. (ECR Tornado) This was widely regarded as not justified. Our constitution states we are not to attack. War has to be strictly defensive. Besides we went in because the U.S. government lied like in Iraq. They said the Serbs are on Operation Hufeisen (horses have that under their ehhh feet lol). I think you called it operation boomerang. Basically the Serbs went in for the kill and commited genocide on the bosnian people) We believed you and therefore did go in along your side even though in the days leading up we stated we won’t do that over and over again. The french did also. I remember U.S. people boycotting french stores and even attacking people on the strets. One company had a french name and received 50000 letters cursing them out. This company had only one french thing about it. The name.
So we helped you attack because of a lie and it turns out that was unconstitutional and that’s when people started saying the U.S. government needs to majorly calm down.)

Two years after September 11, German bookstores are flooded

(not one is flooded? 3 books in total on the subject?)

with such works as ‘The CIA and September 11,’ in which a former government minister, Andreas von B?low, insinuates that the U.S. and Israeli intelligence services blew up the World Trade Center from the inside…" Why do many Germans and other Europeans swallow such disinformation?

(Well maybe because the media fights a war against open minded people, evidence is quickly disposed of, history has shown the government lies all the time, we had a holocaust once and some of us know when to step up and speak out. If it is nonsens fucking tackle the issues and not the person saying it)

Makes you wonder

Makes me wonder how long they gonna tell you that kind of shit before you believe it. Noone is anti american over here. We just don’t like being lied to and we generally don’t like international agressors verry much.
Now with the Iraq war (would have been unc., too but luckily we didn’t go in this time, even though press pressure and british and amercian diplomatic pressure to do so) and troops in Afghnistan (german special forces do alot of the work there for you and they die, too) There is reasons enough to despise the american government for germans. Our media is bad too, but not like watching Fox CNN, kind of a brainwash sometimes. (at least for dumb people it is)

Listen, the american market is the number one market for us and it has always been. We trade with you all the time. 1 million gemrnas spend their vacation in america every year and that is fucking expensive. It’s like every second person to be able to afford it goes to the U.S. on vacation. Disney Land, California, Vegas,…
And that is why you see every german politican stating over and over again that america is our best friend. The people really love america, we just don’t like Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Rice, Bush,…nowe the people on the street that is. Rice was here like yesterday. No serious questions asked. General approval of U.S. government. Only questions were about a german lady who had lived in Iraq for a long time and she was abducted by someone that made a video threatening to kill her. The media in germany already stated, that we need to get used to this. We are now also a target of worldwide terror. Wonder when the first “patriot gesetz” comes out stripping me of my rights to protect me agianst Arab terrorists? The risk is getting so high, uhhh bird-flu, uhhh i am so afraid, what are you gonna do about it? Year right.)

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=3&art_id=qw1063024022904B223&set_id=1

More than 70 000 Germans have also bought The CIA And September 11 by former federal research minister Andreas von Buelow, in which he argues the planes were piloted into targets in New York and Washington not by Islamic extremists but rather by remote control.

(It is getting 30000 less already here. :slight_smile: Besides all these links have common passages. One author or just copied and pasted?)

[/quote]

Dude really noone over here dislikes america. But there is more possible opinions than: you are either with us or against us. That is democracy. If the U.S. media choses to portray the germans like a bunch of disinformed idiots that love conspiracies and generally dislike americans than so be it, but you are smart enough to see what we really dislike hate, war and lies and therefore dislike the Bush government. They lie e.g. when they make everyone go for unjustified wars and if you don’t go along you are unpatriotic or you hate america. That is spreading hate. And we just discussed the conspiracy talk. I don’t know but there is alot of truth to some of the talk and i am yet to see someone really disproving the best arguments. It’s not about who you are for me it is about what you do and say. I’d rather see issues get tackled than people.

These links you posted portray a political lie aimed to discredit von B?low and his readers. I don’t know if you are going to believe me and really i doubt it, but anyone else reading this talk to some germans or something before you believe they generally hate you. heck i am on the political forums here, because i think you people suffer way more than we do so far. I am just fighting for individual rights and freedom because that is what america is truly about and that is what my friends in Cali tought me. Live and let live, you know. Do your thing and let them do theirs. That’s what freedom is really about, that is american.

130

[quote]Bikhlejser wrote:
Bart wrote:
The elves, the ELVES!

I didn’t do it. Nobody saw me do it. You can’t prove anything.

[/quote]

Craptacular!

132

[quote]Bikhlejser wrote:
One last thing for me on this thread.

23 wrote: If the U.S. media choses to portray the germans like a bunch of disinformed idiots that love conspiracies and generally dislike americans than so be it, but you are smart enough to see what we really dislike…

The webstories I posted were not U.S. media.
[/quote]

Wasn’t one the washington post? Somehow that’s what i thought. What is it then? British media? Oh well. Big difference in this aspect. Toney Blair seems to be of a very very different opinion when it comes to the war on terror. They violently opposed the Iraq war and thoroughly investigated the London bombings. Don’t expect the british media to be far from the American. They openly have the same agenda.