America's Closest Ally?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
22

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
How about the country that we do nothing but shit on for being cowards and “surrender monkeys”, but who have been our ally from the very beginning, even before we won our independence, and without whose assistance we never would have prevailed against the most powerful military empire in the world?
[/quote]

I always find it incredible people mock french military prowess. For hundreds of years they were the strongest military power on earth, they were the first to use a draft system and they had been through as many battles as just about anyone with an astonishing record.

To base their entire image on the second world war is silly. Any other country that close to Germany which in 1939 probably had the best land army to ever exist, not to mention the largest and best equipped, would of fallen too.

23

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
How about the country that we do nothing but shit on for being cowards and “surrender monkeys”, but who have been our ally from the very beginning, even before we won our independence, and without whose assistance we never would have prevailed against the most powerful military empire in the world?
[/quote]

I always find it incredible people mock french military prowess. For hundreds of years they were the strongest military power on earth, they were the first to use a draft system and they had been through as many battles as just about anyone with an astonishing record.

To base their entire image on the second world war is silly. Any other country that close to Germany which in 1939 probably had the best land army to ever exist, not to mention the largest and best equipped, would of fallen too.

[/quote]

You need a history lesson my friend. France had a far larger army in 1939, more tanks, larger airforce etc.

24

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
How about the country that we do nothing but shit on for being cowards and “surrender monkeys”, but who have been our ally from the very beginning, even before we won our independence, and without whose assistance we never would have prevailed against the most powerful military empire in the world?
[/quote]

I always find it incredible people mock french military prowess. For hundreds of years they were the strongest military power on earth, they were the first to use a draft system and they had been through as many battles as just about anyone with an astonishing record.

To base their entire image on the second world war is silly. Any other country that close to Germany which in 1939 probably had the best land army to ever exist, not to mention the largest and best equipped, would of fallen too.

[/quote]

You need a history lesson my friend. France had a far larger army in 1939, more tanks, larger airforce etc.[/quote]

Yeah I mumbled my paragraph up. let me type it in English instead of retard.

The french in ww1 were up against the greatest Army ever fielded at that point. While the french were still wearing crazy peacock style clothing, using cavalry and doing sword charges the German army which mobilised 11 million men over the entirety of the war were wearing Grey camouflage, were using modern tactics and were far better supplied.

The french did a pretty amazing job of dealing with them. As for the second world war Germany had a far better military despite the size difference, France were in a position none of the European or Allied powers would of fared much better in. In my opinion at least.

I will admit my knowledge on ww1 is limited to a few books but I think that is a fair summation. Frances military history is hardly one of constant ineptitude and losses.

25

You all forget we got these Hamas A-holes in the south-west, some ISIS in Egypt in our south, and Hezbollah, Assad and other Iranian soldier that where sent to aid Syria in our north border. I don’t know how Americans feel about Israelis, but i guarantee you that we are grateful and love you guys, with that being said, don’t look at the relationship between our PM and your president, it’s just a temporary obstacle.

26

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

If I had to make a list:

  1. Japan
    [/quote]

The term “ally” is most properly a military term.

How is a country whose “self-defense force” can’t leave it’s own borders our number 3 ally?[/quote]

They put in Article 9 because we told 'em to.

If they were ever to face a serious existential threat, from China, say, I think either they’d repeal that article pretty damned quick, or else we’d tell 'em to.

Japan could develop a nuclear program on par with France’s in about six months if they had to.

28

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

They put in Article 9 because we told 'em to.
[/quote]
Yes, I know. Masters in Japanese studies and all that. :slight_smile:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
If they were ever to face a serious existential threat, from China, say, I think either they’d repeal that article pretty damned quick, or else we’d tell 'em to.
[/quote]
Maybe. I’m genuinely not sure what it would take for that to happen.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Japan could develop a nuclear program on par with France’s in about six months if they had to.
[/quote]

Oh, I’m sure.

But none of this explains calling them our CURRENT number 3 ally. I mean, when’s the last time we shared a military battle or confrontation with them? Someday they may be a top “ally.” Not now.[/quote]

I included Japan for several reasons. Nearly 50,000 American forward deployed forces are based in Japan, a fact made even more important by the United States’ strategic pivot toward Pacific Asia. Given its location, Japan is enormously strategic geopolitically. Japan has a large population and dynamic economy. It’s also a highly developed paranuclear state capable of producing large quantities of nuclear weapons if it decided to do so. Even within the confines of article IX, Japan has the wherewithal and technological savvy to procure and/or manufacture a large number of sophisticated land based anti-access /area denial (A2/AD) missile systems, severely curtailing the PRC’s freedom of movement in the region. By 2045, PRC military expenditures are projected to be almost as high as those of the US. It’s importance to the US (and vice versa) will rise along with China. It’s a mistake not to include its economic and diplomatic clout, but I’m sure you’re familiar with Japanese soft power. We can debate its place at number three, but it assuredly belongs on any list of top allies.

29

I’m not sure that I’d call Japan an ally of the United States of America. It takes a bit of twisting to call a nation defeated by the only use of nuclear bombs in the history of war and then occupied by nearly 50,000 of the victor’s troops an ally. I think.

30

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The United Kingdom. It has the greatest combined economic, political, and military strength of any US ally, bar none. It’s the largest foreign investor in the US economy, its population is eight times that of Israel, its a permanent member of the UN Security Council, its military expenditures are the fifth highest in the world, and it possesses 170 operationally available nuclear warheads. In a hard power+soft power calculus, the UK clearly comes out on top.

If I had to make a list:

  1. United Kingdom
  2. France
  3. Japan
  4. Germany
  5. Republic of Korea
  6. Israel[/quote]

Any particular reason you didn’t include Canada on your list?

31

[quote]NickViar wrote:
I’m not sure that I’d call Japan an ally of the United States of America. It takes a bit of twisting to call a nation defeated by the only use of nuclear bombs in the history of war and then occupied by nearly 50,000 of the victor’s troops an ally. I think.[/quote]

http://www.cfr.org/japan/us-japan-security-alliance/p31437

Some notes from the diplomatic and historical record Nicky.

32

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The United Kingdom. It has the greatest combined economic, political, and military strength of any US ally, bar none. It’s the largest foreign investor in the US economy, its population is eight times that of Israel, its a permanent member of the UN Security Council, its military expenditures are the fifth highest in the world, and it possesses 170 operationally available nuclear warheads. In a hard power+soft power calculus, the UK clearly comes out on top.

If I had to make a list:

  1. United Kingdom
  2. France
  3. Japan
  4. Germany
  5. Republic of Korea
  6. Israel[/quote]

I’m with you entirely on this one. Closest geographically, obviously Canada. Closest in terms of economic interests, also Canada. Closest in culture, again Canada. There’s a reason we don’t really think about them or call them the 51st state…

But most important? Not a chance. I would definitely put Britain up there as the top dog, but I would put Israel much higher than 6 (until recently, I’m talking traditionally) because they have been our agent in the ME for a long time.

My list goes UK, Japan, France/Israel tie, Germany

33

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

They put in Article 9 because we told 'em to.
[/quote]
Yes, I know. Masters in Japanese studies and all that. :slight_smile:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
If they were ever to face a serious existential threat, from China, say, I think either they’d repeal that article pretty damned quick, or else we’d tell 'em to.
[/quote]
Maybe. I’m genuinely not sure what it would take for that to happen.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Japan could develop a nuclear program on par with France’s in about six months if they had to.
[/quote]

Oh, I’m sure.

But none of this explains calling them our CURRENT number 3 ally. I mean, when’s the last time we shared a military battle or confrontation with them? Someday they may be a top “ally.” Not now.[/quote]

I included Japan for several reasons. Nearly 50,000 American forward deployed forces are based in Japan, a fact made even more important by the United States’ strategic pivot toward Pacific Asia. Given its location, Japan is enormously strategic geopolitically. Japan has a large population and dynamic economy. It’s also a highly developed paranuclear state capable of producing large quantities of nuclear weapons if it decided to do so. Even within the confines of article IX, Japan has the wherewithal and technological savvy to procure and/or manufacture a large number of sophisticated land based anti-access /area denial (A2/AD) missile systems, severely curtailing the PRC’s freedom of movement in the region. By 2045, PRC military expenditures are projected to be almost as high as those of the US. It’s importance to the US (and vice versa) will rise along with China. It’s a mistake not to include its economic and diplomatic clout, but I’m sure you’re familiar with Japanese soft power. We can debate its place at number three, but it assuredly belongs on any list of top allies.[/quote]

Yep, ditto that. I would have them in there just because of the economic and diplomatic clout, but absolutely as a forward deployment point and potential jump point into any SE Asia theater operations…or for that matter extended operations leaving from there.

They don’t need to have been a fighting partner to know that they extend our reach multiple times farther and easier than without them.

34

Given that I started the thread I might as well give my list in the following order:

  1. GB - Historical - military prowess - economic - Nuclear - Ideological
  2. Israel - Military prowess - geographic location - Nuclear - Ideological
    3.Canada - Geographical - Historical - Fraternal nation - Ideological - Nuclear
    4.Australia - Historical - geographical - Ideological - Nuclear
    5.Germany - Economic - Military prowess - Nuclear - Ideology
35

I disagree entirely. Traditionally Britain is called a close ally, but would the UK come to the immediate assistance of the U.S. in the event of an invasion? Who would? Canada. And I’d also have Saudi Arabia on that list. They’ve been a U.S. ally since Abdulaziz signed oil contracts and turned on the Ikwan leaders.

36

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The United Kingdom. It has the greatest combined economic, political, and military strength of any US ally, bar none. It’s the largest foreign investor in the US economy, its population is eight times that of Israel, its a permanent member of the UN Security Council, its military expenditures are the fifth highest in the world, and it possesses 170 operationally available nuclear warheads. In a hard power+soft power calculus, the UK clearly comes out on top.

If I had to make a list:

  1. United Kingdom
  2. France
  3. Japan
  4. Germany
  5. Republic of Korea
  6. Israel[/quote]

I’m with you entirely on this one. Closest geographically, obviously Canada. Closest in terms of economic interests, also Canada. Closest in culture, again Canada. There’s a reason we don’t really think about them or call them the 51st state…

But most important? Not a chance. I would definitely put Britain up there as the top dog, but I would put Israel much higher than 6 (until recently, I’m talking traditionally) because they have been our agent in the ME for a long time.

My list goes UK, Japan, France/Israel tie, Germany[/quote]

Canada also has a thriving tradition of football, which is pretty much unheard of outside of the US (Samoa I consider US).

I think Canada being closest to us geographically, culturally, and economically should count for a top 5 placement. We also get the majority of our energy imports from Canada, which is a bonafide energy superpower. No other energy superpowers are even close to Canada in terms of positive relations with the US. That has to count for something since the global economy is so dependent on energy.

Nowhere else in the world can an American feel at home than in Canada. I include Quebec as well since I’ve always been treated friendly by French Canadians and they all speak English anyway and don’t get offended when you can’t speak French. I guess this stuff may not be a top criterion for “closest ally” but I think culture is very important.

I get the impression Canada is being discounted because of a lack of military strategic interests. But I feel like that’s just because no country is silly enough to come near North American borders and act aggressively. I have to believe if we lived in a different world where this would happen, Canada and the US would be very instrumental to each other’s safety.

Maybe I’m biased because I like Canada and Canadians a lot but we’re fortunate to have such a stalwart and stable ally to our north.

37

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
I’m not sure that I’d call Japan an ally of the United States of America. It takes a bit of twisting to call a nation defeated by the only use of nuclear bombs in the history of war and then occupied by nearly 50,000 of the victor’s troops an ally. I think.[/quote]

http://www.cfr.org/japan/us-japan-security-alliance/p31437

Some notes from the diplomatic and historical record Nicky.[/quote]

Again, I’m not sure that “ally” is the proper term…at least, it’s not the term that’s used for all such relationships.

38

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I disagree entirely. Traditionally Britain is called a close ally, but would the UK come to the immediate assistance of the U.S. in the event of an invasion? Who would? Canada. And I’d also have Saudi Arabia on that list. They’ve been a U.S. ally since Abdulaziz signed oil contracts and turned on the Ikwan leaders.[/quote]

The Saudi’s are a weak despot regime that almost fell when Juhayman took the Masjid al-Haram, they were almost overthrown by a bunch of ragtag Wahabbi students and Bedouins and an unarmed uprising of Shia on the other side of the country.
Saudi Arabia are a client state, they are hardly a strong, political, economic or military power that shares an ideology. They are always in danger of Shia revolt and Shia powers like Iran through proxy revolt gaining control of Mecca.

As for Canada you make see some good points, ones I agree with somewhat but would still rank GB as high or higher, though obviously Canada would be the greatest help as far as invasion is concerned.
Then again America is in no danger of being invaded.

39

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:
Given that I started the thread I might as well give my list in the following order:

  1. GB - Historical - military prowess - economic - Nuclear - Ideological
  2. Israel - Military prowess - geographic location - Nuclear - Ideological
    3.Canada - Geographical - Historical - Fraternal nation - Ideological - Nuclear
    4.Australia - Historical - geographical - Ideological - Nuclear
    5.Germany - Economic - Military prowess - Nuclear - Ideology[/quote]

Canada, Australia, and Germany are not nuclear weapon states.

40

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The United Kingdom. It has the greatest combined economic, political, and military strength of any US ally, bar none. It’s the largest foreign investor in the US economy, its population is eight times that of Israel, its a permanent member of the UN Security Council, its military expenditures are the fifth highest in the world, and it possesses 170 operationally available nuclear warheads. In a hard power+soft power calculus, the UK clearly comes out on top.

If I had to make a list:

  1. United Kingdom
  2. France
  3. Japan
  4. Germany
  5. Republic of Korea
  6. Israel[/quote]

I’m with you entirely on this one. Closest geographically, obviously Canada. Closest in terms of economic interests, also Canada. Closest in culture, again Canada. There’s a reason we don’t really think about them or call them the 51st state…

But most important? Not a chance. I would definitely put Britain up there as the top dog, but I would put Israel much higher than 6 (until recently, I’m talking traditionally) because they have been our agent in the ME for a long time.

My list goes UK, Japan, France/Israel tie, Germany[/quote]

Canada also has a thriving tradition of football, which is pretty much unheard of outside of the US (Samoa I consider US).

I think Canada being closest to us geographically, culturally, and economically should count for a top 5 placement. We also get the majority of our energy imports from Canada, which is a bonafide energy superpower. No other energy superpowers are even close to Canada in terms of positive relations with the US. That has to count for something since the global economy is so dependent on energy.

Nowhere else in the world can an American feel at home than in Canada. I include Quebec as well since I’ve always been treated friendly by French Canadians and they all speak English anyway and don’t get offended when you can’t speak French. I guess this stuff may not be a top criterion for “closest ally” but I think culture is very important.

I get the impression Canada is being discounted because of a lack of military strategic interests. But I feel like that’s just because no country is silly enough to come near North American borders and act aggressively. I have to believe if we lived in a different world where this would happen, Canada and the US would be very instrumental to each other’s safety.

Maybe I’m biased because I like Canada and Canadians a lot but we’re fortunate to have such a stalwart and stable ally to our north.[/quote]

Aren’t Canadians technically British?

41

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:
Given that I started the thread I might as well give my list in the following order:

  1. GB - Historical - military prowess - economic - Nuclear - Ideological
  2. Israel - Military prowess - geographic location - Nuclear - Ideological
    3.Canada - Geographical - Historical - Fraternal nation - Ideological - Nuclear
    4.Australia - Historical - geographical - Ideological - Nuclear
    5.Germany - Economic - Military prowess - Nuclear - Ideology[/quote]

Canada, Australia, and Germany are not nuclear weapon states.[/quote]

Holy shit you are right. How the fuck don’t Canada and Australia have nukes? As for Germany are they not allowed them because of ww2?