[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
No, I don’t, I just don’t see why it won’t sink into your head? CIA officials say this and you believe their opinion to be what-irrelevant? [/quote]
source
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I just pulled out my check stub, just for shits-and-giggles…
As you would expect, the largest “chunk” taken out is for Federal Income Tax and Social Security Tax.
SS is a separate “gorilla in the room”, that is a thread by itself. And since it is dealt with a little differently when considering the Federal Budget, expenditures, etc. I’ll set that one aside.
Of the Federal Income Tax, the VAST majority of those funds go to military spending AND PAYING THE INTEREST ON THE HOLDERS OF OUR NATIONAL DEBT. (Mostly incurred by military spending).
Mufasa[/quote]
How about some facts?
[quote]engerland66 wrote:
How about this one.
Through social engineering principles and generally sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong, the government enabled unqualified people to obtain houses. These people bought houses they could not afford and the government created that opportunity for them.
Then, when the truth comes out 5 years into the mortgage and people default on their payments, they are well and truly fucked. How is that for a compassionate government.[/quote]
But you forgot that Mccain now wants to save them from that too.
It’s like this. Governments just cannot do some things. Or put even better. Government can ONLY do some things well. Once they start meandering off into other areas it’s only a matter of time before disaster hits. The fact that this is not nearly universally embraced in this country does not bode well for our future.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
How about some facts?[/quote]
Just who the hell do you think you are? You know damn well that we have no need for these “facts” you speak of.
Take your “facts”, your “logic”, your “reasoning”, your “common sense”, and your “valid” arguments and TAKE THEM ELSEWHERE!
And that goes for everyone else! Don’t you DARE muddle up this discussion with the aforementioned. You all know that this is SERIOUS debate, about SERIOUS issues. We can only discuss these subjects in generalities, and ad hominem attacks.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
This country has to have some of the most heartless and shallow people in the world.
The government can spend 600 billion a year on military, 50 billion a year on the war on drugs, 35 billion a year on FOREIGN AID… Read that again you nitwits, FOREIGN AID…but as soon as money is spent for domestic programs, for AMERICANS, for your NEIGHBORS, suddenly it’s the most horrific and unjust use of tax payer’s money ever.
For a country that overwhelmingly considers itself ‘christian’, I rarely see people share the same compassion or giving nature for people their supposed savior did and encouraged.
Assholes.
Now start ranting and raving about how you don’t want your money to go to ‘deadbeats’ and ‘lazy bums’ while the government ships off billions of tax payer’s dollars to foreign nations that you could give a fuck less about.
I share your frustration…“good luck” getting a valid argument from the bullshit that will follow…
I think you share his half a brain as well. Why don’t you two try and use what there before posting stupid shit like this.
[/quote]
Good for you…my “half a brain” says you should proof read before posting. You really need to stop beating off to PWI…its turning into the real “Get A Life” forum.
[quote]skaz05 wrote:
dhickey wrote:
How about some facts?
Just who the hell do you think you are? You know damn well that we have no need for these “facts” you speak of.
Take your “facts”, your “logic”, your “reasoning”, your “common sense”, and your “valid” arguments and TAKE THEM ELSEWHERE!
And that goes for everyone else! Don’t you DARE muddle up this discussion with the aforementioned. You all know that this is SERIOUS debate, about SERIOUS issues. We can only discuss these subjects in generalities, and ad hominem attacks.[/quote]
YEAH!!!
What kinda shit is this here?!?!?
People demanding a basis in reality for their views. How preposterous can ya be?
However I have read that our intelligence data suggests that terrorist type anti American activity has increased since we invaded Iraq. Duh. That’s news? As if anybody with any idea what’s goin on expected anything else?
[quote]orion wrote:
People who do not believe in forced redistribution spend 5 to 10 times more on charity than people who do.
[/quote]
Citation, please.
Edit: OK, I see you provided one.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
I just pulled out my check stub, just for shits-and-giggles…
As you would expect, the largest “chunk” taken out is for Federal Income Tax and Social Security Tax.
SS is a separate “gorilla in the room”, that is a thread by itself. And since it is dealt with a little differently when considering the Federal Budget, expenditures, etc. I’ll set that one aside.
Of the Federal Income Tax, the VAST majority of those funds go to military spending AND PAYING THE INTEREST ON THE HOLDERS OF OUR NATIONAL DEBT. (Mostly incurred by military spending).
Mufasa
How about some facts?
2007 United States federal budget - Wikipedia [/quote]
dh:
The “official” government view of the budget tends to be a distortion of how our income tax dollars are spent because it includes Trust Funds (e.g., Social Security); and the expenses of past military spending are not distinguished from non-military spending.
“Past military spending” includes 1) Veterans Benefits (~95-100 Billion) AND 2) Interest on the national debt (80%) that is created by military spending (~$390 billion)
The link you gave is also of a “Proposed Federal Budget” that have recently underestimated and misrepresented the cost of “The War on Terror” and the expenditures on the Two Front War we are now engaged in.
Much of the costs of the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war until fiscal year 2008 have been funded through supplemental appropriations or emergency supplemental appropriations. (Which the WIKI article does bring out).
“Submitted budgets” often aren’t what we spend, because of the “smoke and mirrors” games Politicians often play.
Those are the facts.
Try again…and look a little furthur than Wiki the next time.
Mufasa
[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
This country has to have some of the most heartless and shallow people in the world.
The government can spend 600 billion a year on military, 50 billion a year on the war on drugs, 35 billion a year on FOREIGN AID… Read that again you nitwits, FOREIGN AID…but as soon as money is spent for domestic programs, for AMERICANS, for your NEIGHBORS, suddenly it’s the most horrific and unjust use of tax payer’s money ever.
For a country that overwhelmingly considers itself ‘christian’, I rarely see people share the same compassion or giving nature for people their supposed savior did and encouraged.
Assholes.
Now start ranting and raving about how you don’t want your money to go to ‘deadbeats’ and ‘lazy bums’ while the government ships off billions of tax payer’s dollars to foreign nations that you could give a fuck less about.[/quote]
Eloquent-My sentiments entirely, can’t expand on it further,billions going out for bullshit,while nickels and dimes for Americans. Props for posting and all the hell fire missiles you will be dodging.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
produce entire underclasses of unproductive dependence,
This is the whole argument. Everything else is superfluous.
This is what you nanny staters can’t seem to grasp about our position. We believe, in the end, you guys are making people worse off! That you’re slowing job creation and the rise in wages/benefits, making black-market labor attractive, and making the cost of goods more expensive.
And, AND, you’re providing incentives for entire generations of people to give less weight to the consequences of bad and risky lifestyle choices. You’re subsidizing cycles of poverty![/quote]
No one is addressing this!!!
It would be real easy to fix this economic mess so everyone could keep their money. We just need to get rid of this welfare mentality both nationally and internationally Start by slicing things right off the top.
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Dump all foreign aid. If a country can’t make it on their own fuck em pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan and let Israel fend for themselves. Close down all military bases except for the one on USA soil. We really don’t need all this defense junk anyway, we have the world’s largest collection of nuclear weapons, make that the primary defense. Beside who cares if the Muslims and the Commies take over all of those other countries? It’s their fault for being weak. Just don’t travel stay here and you will be fine.
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Next deport anyone who is not a valid citizen, get rid of all those assholes with H-visas and put the Americans back to work. If they are not as bright we’ll get over it.
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Next we get rid of welfare, Medicare, WIC and all those damn money wasting programs. Let the poor starve. We can take all that money and buy more police (lots of them to protect anything that isn’t bolted down).
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We get rid of all that free medical assistance, we could save a lot of money. Only the rich get to live. This will make more room. If you get cancer or some other horrible debilitating disease thats your problem. When the person runs out of money because without government assistance he can’t pay for it. You push him out in the back of the hospital parking lot and let him die. Next make euthanization legal but instead of basing the decision on the patient’s condition or some other silly excuse, you base the decision on the patient’s ability to keep paying for treatment.
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Next as long as we are dumping WIC and that other stuff. We fully support abortion up to the age of 2. That way we don’t have to pay the little bastard, it ain’t mine anyway. Abortions however will be fully financed by the government if necessary, that is a money saving treatment.
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Get rid of all of those superfluous agencies like the DMV that really aren’t needed. Get rid of the fire department, you probably started the fire either smoking or some other stupid reason. I shouldn’t have to pay to save your house, I take care of mine. Same with all these forest fires it will go out sooner or later.
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If we want to save the money wasted on police in section 3 we can get rid of them. We don’t really need them anyway. Just go to an NRA meeting for the details. Gun control is hitting your target.
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Next we make all museums and things like that as expensive as Disneyland. If you want to see that place, then pay for it. If it can’t break even close it. Put an admission on every park, even the city ones. Don’t need to support all that cultural crap anyway.
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Next we close all of the public schools, colleges and all public education. We only have private schools. If you can’t afford to school your kids that’s not my fault. Also get rid of all those student loan programs that are wasting hidden government money with staff and all that wasted paperwork.
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We get rid of NASA and defense spending. If we are going to base defense on nuclear weapons we don’t need to develop anything else.
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Next we close down all municipal water and electric systems. If you can’t afford bottled water or your own personal electric power thats your fault. Need a bath look for a creek if you can’t afford your own pond. Just because you are on Kidney Dialysis or an iron lung I shouldn’t have to pay for you to stay alive. These health care subsidies have got to stop.
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We stop things like all this government guarantees. If your bank goes under, why should I have to pay for your mistake. You opened the account not me.
There are all kinds of things we can cut. My money is my money we need minimal taxes and services. The only thing we care about is me and mine. True we will lose a lot of jobs because all of these cuts will make a lot of positions unnecessary but we have kicked out all the foreigners any way. The ultra rich won’t see any difference in lifestyle just an uptick in spending. They can hire bodyguards and pretty much anything they need.
The average guy now his lifestyle will probably change a lot. But hey, thats his fault for not being rich. We do things the old fashioned way, the haves and the have nots. But everyone will have a lot more money that is not wasted on taxes and they can be as self-centered as they want.
[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
If the US people were to wake up, start taking action and embrace involvement, then perhaps there might be some accountability and effecient implementation.[/quote]
If they acted that way there would be no need for such programms in the first place.
[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
MarvelGirl wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
MarvelGirl wrote:
I don’t work my ass off so that the whore down the street can pump out her seventh AIDS infested bastard and still buy her smokes.
If that makes me heartless than so be it, maybe it’d be more kind for me to slit her bitch throat and put her out of her misery.
You belong in a psychiatric ward. I suggest you go admit yourself as soon as possible.
But if I did that, then you lazy lowlife welfare bastards would miss out on my four months of income that I have to contribute.
Make up your mind shithead.
There are probably times I could have, but I’ve never taken a dime- no unemployment, no wic, no food stamps, nothing.
Anyway, you’re a vile and disgusting excuse for a human being. Go away.[/quote]
What do you expect from a system that makes people fight to keep their own money?
[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:
It would be real easy to fix this economic mess so everyone could keep their money. We just need to get rid of this welfare mentality both nationally and internationally Start by slicing things right off the top.
[/quote] Very clever. Funny thing is that these would actually work.
Like welfare, foreign aid isn’t what it’s cracked up to be. Private donations and organizations tend to be a bit more effective. Generally their assistance is more focused and less likely to end up in the hands of murdering warlords.
Most countries forced to take care of themselves will do so. We would be better off getting involved after it looked like countries could not fend off common enemies by themselves. Select assasinations are probably much cheaper than the policing we are doing now. Time to bring back the clandestin service. As much of mess the CIA was in the past, it can’t be as costly as what we are doing now.
We could open up the flood gates to immigration if you implemented number 3, 4, and 9, along with moving to a consumption tax, remove any corp tax, remove requirements on businesses for medical or unemployment insurance, make any consumer protection aimed regulatory compliance optional.
Poor people weren’t starving before welfare. Local charities were much more common and efficient before welfare. Not only is gov’t less efficient at taking care of our communities, but they have taken the pride and satifaction of caring for less fortunate via church and communty groups away from us. They have replace this with resentment on both sides. Good job, the war on poverty is working out great isn’t it?
Again, medical treatments weren’t always covered by big brother. Private citizens and groups are far more generous than you think. They want the want the right to distribute their money as they see fit. I don’t know what is so hard to figure out here. When people have more they give more. All without inefficient bureacracies. If you want medical services to be more affordable, you definately want less gov’t intervention. Gov’t has created the bloated system we have now.
weak.
People happily pay for this. what’s your point.
people happily pay for this.
Agian, private donations.
Good idea. Gov’t didn’t always pay for education. Private scholarships, religious schools, and community funded schools will do quite fine. Especially with a little competition to bring cost down and elimination of wastefull bureaucracy.
Only libs would suggest getting rid of spending that’s actually constitutional
Private industry does quite fine here. You’d probably eliminate water bans and shortages as well.
ever heard of private insurance?
We will gain jobs and increase the overall quality of life in this country quite a bit. If you think money is more efficiently spent in gov’t as compared to private industry, I feel for you and your likely to be mildly retarded offspring.
Are you high? What do we have now? Created by your beloved gov’t.
[quote]orion wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
MarvelGirl wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
MarvelGirl wrote:
I don’t work my ass off so that the whore down the street can pump out her seventh AIDS infested bastard and still buy her smokes.
If that makes me heartless than so be it, maybe it’d be more kind for me to slit her bitch throat and put her out of her misery.
You belong in a psychiatric ward. I suggest you go admit yourself as soon as possible.
But if I did that, then you lazy lowlife welfare bastards would miss out on my four months of income that I have to contribute.
Make up your mind shithead.
There are probably times I could have, but I’ve never taken a dime- no unemployment, no wic, no food stamps, nothing.
Anyway, you’re a vile and disgusting excuse for a human being. Go away.
What do you expect from a system that makes people fight to keep their own money?
[/quote]
FTW!
[quote]Sloth wrote:
This is what you nanny staters can’t seem to grasp about our position. We believe, in the end, you guys are making people worse off! That you’re slowing job creation and the rise in wages/benefits, making black-market labor attractive, and making the cost of goods more expensive.
And, AND, you’re providing incentives for entire generations of people to give less weight to the consequences of bad and risky lifestyle choices. You’re subsidizing cycles of poverty![/quote]
I agree with this statement completely.
The original question is too broad and poorly defined. I like domestic spending, if by domestic spending you mean spending on basic infrastructure like roads, bridges, hospitals, etc, that we all benefit from.
But if by domestic spending you mean welfare, no, I don’t support that. I don’t want anyone to starve in this country, but no one does. There are community food banks, WIC, etc. We have people on government assitance who have Cable TV, new clothes, a nice car. These are luxuries, not basic necessities. This isn’t a myth that was created by the right, I’ve known these people. I’ve been in there houses.
If I’m working my ass off and can’t afford these things, and someone who isn’t working can, something is really wrong with this country. And how does someone who doesn’t pay taxes get a tax rebate? This makes no sense.
The problem appears to be that everyone thinks they’re armed with the “one truth”. And with all the schizmatic “belief groups” you can guarantee that 99 percent of the world is out to convert you.
People expect their politicians to enact the “right” motions. Therefore politians are by definition firm “believers” in the ideals they are elected to represent.
Nobody admits that what a lot of these ideas lack is a foundation in empiracle evidence. Science tests it’s ideas to approximate the mechanics of a system. Much of what politicians do relies on “anecdotal” evidense or faith plain and simple.
For example, taking young delinquents to see the inside of prisons it was thought would attenuate the chance of repeated offenses later in life. Statistical analysis demonstrates the inverse.
Refusal to engage in self analysis, and the unwillingness to embrace personal uncertainty sustains a climate in which collective uncertainty can thrive.
Do I believe that a system like this targeted at improving a measure of collective satisfaction would work? I don’t know, it hasn’t been tested.
[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
The problem appears to be that everyone thinks they’re armed with the “one truth”. And with all the schizmatic “belief groups” you can guarantee that 99 percent of the world is out to convert you.
People expect their politicians to enact the “right” motions. Therefore politians are by definition firm “believers” in the ideals they are elected to represent.
Nobody admits that what a lot of these ideas lack is a foundation in empiracle evidence. Science tests it’s ideas to approximate the mechanics of a system. Much of what politicians do relies on “anecdotal” evidense or faith plain and simple.
For example, taking young delinquents to see the inside of prisons it was thought would attenuate the chance of repeated offenses later in life. Statistical analysis demonstrates the inverse.
Refusal to engage in self analysis, and the unwillingness to embrace personal uncertainty sustains a climate in which collective uncertainty can thrive.
Do I believe that a system like this targeted at improving a measure of collective satisfaction would work? I don’t know, it hasn’t been tested.[/quote]
And it cannot be tested unless you find a way to quantify and compare utility.
Or, to put it another way, you cannot measure happiness.
The whole premise of the welfare state is flawed.
[quote]orion wrote:
Gumpshmee wrote:
The problem appears to be that everyone thinks they’re armed with the “one truth”. And with all the schizmatic “belief groups” you can guarantee that 99 percent of the world is out to convert you.
People expect their politicians to enact the “right” motions. Therefore politians are by definition firm “believers” in the ideals they are elected to represent.
Nobody admits that what a lot of these ideas lack is a foundation in empiracle evidence. Science tests it’s ideas to approximate the mechanics of a system. Much of what politicians do relies on “anecdotal” evidense or faith plain and simple.
For example, taking young delinquents to see the inside of prisons it was thought would attenuate the chance of repeated offenses later in life. Statistical analysis demonstrates the inverse.
Refusal to engage in self analysis, and the unwillingness to embrace personal uncertainty sustains a climate in which collective uncertainty can thrive.
Do I believe that a system like this targeted at improving a measure of collective satisfaction would work? I don’t know, it hasn’t been tested.
And it cannot be tested unless you find a way to quantify and compare utility.
Or, to put it another way, you cannot measure happiness.
The whole premise of the welfare state is flawed.
[/quote]
yep. Most scientific principals and methods don’t apply to politics or economics. Way too many variables.