American Women Suck

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Not the need, just the want.

Disconnect the cable TV, take simple vacations (if any at all), get rid of the monthly cell phone bill, stop buying new gas guzzlers every 3 years, buy a house you can afford (not a starter mansion), don’t buy an ipod, don’t smoke cigarettes, pay off your credit card each month (or don’t use it at all) etc.

Life is America is very affordable if you are not so insecure that you need to keep up with the neighbors.[/quote]

I disagree Zap. Try educating three children concurrently (the average american nuclear family is 2.2 kids last I heard). Attending an in-state public insitution costs nearly 15,000 dollars per year per student.

Having three children attending would
necessitate that 45,000 dollars of AFTER TAX income per year be spent solely on educational expenses; this is approximately one person’s yearly salary. In such cases financial aid does exist as well as scholarship.

Yet, most aid is granted as subsidized and unsubsidized loans; scholarships/grants are usually small and aid only in routine expenses such as food, clothing, etc. Expecting your children to work a job more than 10 hours per week through their education serves only to SEVERELY hamper their future earning potential.

It is impossible to maintain the high GPA and rigorous schedule required of well paying degree programs with even a small part time job.

82

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Some may say that gas at 2.50 a gal. is still a bargain. Fine. But why has the price gone up almost 100% in 2 years? In referencing nephorm’s logic–is it simply because we can afford it?[/quote]

I’d venture to guess the war has something to do with it.

83

[quote]swiperfox wrote:

I disagree Zap. Try educating three children concurrently (the average american nuclear family is 2.2 kids last I heard). Attending an in-state public insitution costs nearly 15,000 dollars per year per student.

Having three children attending would
necessitate that 45,000 dollars of AFTER TAX income per year be spent solely on educational expenses; this is approximately one person’s yearly salary. In such cases financial aid does exist as well as scholarship.

Yet, most aid is granted as subsidized and unsubsidized loans; scholarships/grants are usually small and aid only in routine expenses such as food, clothing, etc. Expecting your children to work a job more than 10 hours per week through their education serves only to SEVERELY hamper their future earning potential.

It is impossible to maintain the high GPA and rigorous schedule required of well paying degree programs with even a small part time job.[/quote]

Well, I worked one full-time job and two part time jobs while attending college. It was very hard (I slept whenever I could), and it took 6 years to do it, but I did it. And While my GPA did suffer (still made the Deans list once) I think I actually developed an attitude that I could do and be anything I wanted if I worked hard enough.

I don’t want to sound harsh. However,
when did it become the governments responsibility to educate your children? Sure it would be great to send all of your children to college and not have to have any of them work. But, I wonder how realistic that is? I also wonder if there are some going to college that really shouldn’t be there.

Opportunity is created by hard work and sacrifce not by the government.

84

Swiper, no swiping!

85

[quote]vroom wrote:
Swiper, no swiping![/quote]

That damned fox never listens.

86

[quote]swiperfox wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Not the need, just the want.

Disconnect the cable TV, take simple vacations (if any at all), get rid of the monthly cell phone bill, stop buying new gas guzzlers every 3 years, buy a house you can afford (not a starter mansion), don’t buy an ipod, don’t smoke cigarettes, pay off your credit card each month (or don’t use it at all) etc.

Life is America is very affordable if you are not so insecure that you need to keep up with the neighbors.

I disagree Zap. Try educating three children concurrently (the average american nuclear family is 2.2 kids last I heard). Attending an in-state public insitution costs nearly 15,000 dollars per year per student.

Having three children attending would
necessitate that 45,000 dollars of AFTER TAX income per year be spent solely on educational expenses; this is approximately one person’s yearly salary. In such cases financial aid does exist as well as scholarship.

Yet, most aid is granted as subsidized and unsubsidized loans; scholarships/grants are usually small and aid only in routine expenses such as food, clothing, etc. Expecting your children to work a job more than 10 hours per week through their education serves only to SEVERELY hamper their future earning potential.

It is impossible to maintain the high GPA and rigorous schedule required of well paying degree programs with even a small part time job.[/quote]

Go to community college for 2 years and then tranfer into a 4 year school.
Communty colleges are incredibly inexpensive.

Start saving for your kids college education from day one.

There are plenty of ways to make it on one income, but it certainly requires some sacrifice.

I just think you are adopting a more pessimistic attitude about the situation.

My family was one income with 5 kids. We made all the sacrifices I previously listed.

All the people I know that complain about needing two incomes indulge in every luxury I have listed.

Things are not worse than they used to be, but peoples expectations are higher.

87

Welcome to consumerism.

88

[quote]swiperfox wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
Some may say that gas at 2.50 a gal. is still a bargain. Fine. But why has the price gone up almost 100% in 2 years? In referencing nephorm’s logic–is it simply because we can afford it?

I’d venture to guess the war has something to do with it.

[/quote]

Your smugness aside, the war actually has very LITTLE to do with the price increase unless you add into it specualtion. Our import of oil has not and is not affected currently. I understand global effect, but this would not substantiate the dramatic increases we have seen. I am leaning in nephorm’s direction here that some of these increases are directly related to ability to pay–if I may paraphrase nephorm.

89

Since it’s related to the topic at hand:

www.nomarriage.com

90

Let me clarify a few points:

  1. I have no way ever stated that it is the government’s role to support anyone’s education. I just said that while there is aid available, you still pay for it in the end, and is thus still difficult for one person to support. Regardless, having a child work to support expenses is equivalent in my view to a multi-income family. I believe the original argument was that a multi-income family is not necessary.

  2. I am fully supportive of those who work to pay their way through college, and am in complete awe of their abilities to do so. I do, however, hold to the notion that they would have performed significantly better in the classroom had they not had to work. In some cases this may not be so significant. Political science, English, teaching, etc. are significantly easier degree programs than say quantum mechanics. When the goal of an undergraduate program is to gain entry to graduate school, the ever increasing academic competitiveness places those who seek as significant source of income at a severe disadvantage.

  3. I am in no way attempting to be smug, arrogant, or cocky; I am just expressing an opinion. When I said “I guess” I meant it as such, and in no way have anything to back it up other than the timetable which was cited. It would, however, be logical to assume an increase in demand of oil due to increased usage (the war) to lead to an overall increase in price. Incomes have not risen significantly in the past two years to account for a doubling in gas prices.

  4. Zap,
    While community colleges are a great means to a college education for those who failed to graduate highschool, the disparity between a CC and a public institution can be as drastic as public vs private school high school(the difference is astounding). Having known many people from both sides of the track, on average expectations of performance at a community college are not comparable to those at a 4-year institution, public or private. Cutting corners is great, but not at the expense of your children’s future. What you save now you pay for later in the loss of their potential. Many things can be forgone in the name of “luxury”, education is certainly not one of them.

91

I will make one concession.
With significant planning, the cost of raising children could be supported. Unfortunately, I don’t know many with the foresight to do so.

92

[quote]swiperfox wrote:
While community colleges are a great means to a college education for those who failed to graduate highschool, the disparity between a CC and a public institution can be as drastic as public vs private school high school(the difference is astounding). [/quote]

I have to disagree with you, here. I took summer courses at the local CC rather than at my university (substantially cheaper, and the credits transferred) and some of the teachers were the best I’ve had. In the Washington, DC area, we have some of the best community colleges in the country.

93

[quote]swiperfox wrote:

I disagree Zap. Try educating three children concurrently (the average american nuclear family is 2.2 kids last I heard). Attending an in-state public insitution costs nearly 15,000 dollars per year per student.[/quote]

I unserstand your point, and tuition inflation usually skyrockets past overall inflation, making it even worse as time goes on.

However, I think taking a year before school can do wonders for a college freshman. Work a crappy job, save some money, tighten up your discipline - it is not a perfect solution, but it could help offset parents’ costs and help the kid take charge because he is now proactively investing in his own future.

Getting up and slogging through a construction job or flipping burgers also has a unique way of getting youngsters mind extrememly interested in academics. :>

94

[quote]swiperfox wrote:
It is impossible to maintain the high GPA and rigorous schedule required of well paying degree programs with even a small part time job.[/quote]

I’m not sure why you’re selling kids so short…

I’m a high school dropout who then returned to finish HS requirements while also taking nursing pre-req’s - not quantum mechanics but not underwater basket weaving either. I attended 2 quarters yet managed to rack up a GPA of 3.93 with 50 credits in Chemistry (Organic and Inorganic), Biology, Microbiology, Anatomy & Physiology I & II, English Lit & Comp, Poli Sci and Psychology. Oh yeah, 6 of those classes also required 6 hours of labs each per week.

While doing this, I supported myself with a full time job and found time to train 2 hours a day. I was 19 at the time and no one had spoiled my drive and determination by telling me it would be too hard to do it and coddle me through it.

Well, actually, someone did. I was doing just fine and some prick (at the time I called him a BF) told me that I should let him handle the financial end so I could “concentrate” more on school. Yeah, like I was failing miserably at it already. Anyway, being 19 and dumb I let him take financial responsibility for it and he fucked me over on it effectively ending my schooling career.

[quote]swiperfox wrote:
RE: CC vs. 4 Year
Cutting corners is great, but not at the expense of your children’s future. What you save now you pay for later in the loss of their potential. Many things can be forgone in the name of “luxury”, education is certainly not one of them.[/quote]

Funny how despite dire educational setback I’ve apparently experienced, I’ve managed to get jobs (or have them created for me) where my income alone matches that of both my parents - who incidentally have 3 BAs and a Masters between them and are topped out on the pay scale for their industry. My IRAs are larger, my portfolio more diverse and my liquid assets greater as well. Yeah, from a fucking high school drop out.

My experience coming up in the world has also given me the initiative to do freelance work which pays extremely better than a job. While I was doing that, I doubled the dual income of my folks making more in a month than what most family sedans sell for.

So quit coddling kids and give them the opportunity to actually try those wings out and see how far they can soar without your help.

95

Nephorm,
It is entirely likely you found some great teachers. They are few and far to come by no matter what type of institution (from elementary to graduate school). I made that assertion based upon the quality of work I see passing for A material at CC’s in the Florida area. Then again, I think we have the absolute worst public grade school system in the country which could have a lot to do with it.

Some people do require a little motivation, and for those lacking the drive a year off might be beneficial. I’ve seen a few of my friends try this route; not one of them actually followed through on attending school after their year off.

96

[quote]~karma~ wrote:
My experience coming up in the world has also given me the initiative to do freelance work which pays extremely better than a job. While I was doing that, I doubled the dual income of my folks making more in a month than what most family sedans sell for.
[/quote]

I find your ideas intriguing, and I’d like to subscribe to your newsletter.

97

[quote]~karma~ wrote:
I’m not sure why you’re selling kids so short…

I’m a high school dropout who then returned to finish HS requirements while also taking nursing pre-req’s - not quantum mechanics but not underwater basket weaving either. I attended 2 quarters yet managed to rack up a GPA of 3.93 with 50 credits in Chemistry (Organic and Inorganic), Biology, Microbiology, Anatomy & Physiology I & II, English Lit & Comp, Poli Sci and Psychology. Oh yeah, 6 of those classes also required 6 hours of labs each per week.

While doing this, I supported myself with a full time job and found time to train 2 hours a day. I was 19 at the time and no one had spoiled my drive and determination by telling me it would be too hard to do it and coddle me through it.

Well, actually, someone did. I was doing just fine and some prick (at the time I called him a BF) told me that I should let him handle the financial end so I could “concentrate” more on school. Yeah, like I was failing miserably at it already. Anyway, being 19 and dumb I let him take financial responsibility for it and he fucked me over on it effectively ending my schooling career.

swiperfox wrote:
RE: CC vs. 4 Year
Cutting corners is great, but not at the expense of your children’s future. What you save now you pay for later in the loss of their potential. Many things can be forgone in the name of “luxury”, education is certainly not one of them.

Funny how despite dire educational setback I’ve apparently experienced, I’ve managed to get jobs (or have them created for me) where my income alone matches that of both my parents - who incidentally have 3 BAs and a Masters between them and are topped out on the pay scale for their industry. My IRAs are larger, my portfolio more diverse and my liquid assets greater as well. Yeah, from a fucking high school drop out.

My experience coming up in the world has also given me the initiative to do freelance work which pays extremely better than a job. While I was doing that, I doubled the dual income of my folks making more in a month than what most family sedans sell for.

So quit coddling kids and give them the opportunity to actually try those wings out and see how far they can soar without your help.
[/quote]

You truly accomplished something amazing, and you damn well should be proud of it. I am not a parent yet, so I’ve coddled no one :slight_smile: Im a student, and having experienced what it takes for me personally to succeed, I would never wish my children to be forced into the extra burden of earning an income.

I have taken all those courses you mentioned, so I know the difficulty of which you speak. Imagine, however, taking courses of calculus, physics, differential equations, dynamics, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, heat transfer, finite element analysis, circuits and 4 hour labs for half these classes in addition to that load. Now your free time is extremely limited.

Add to that the need to serve as a hospital volunteer, in honor societies, on engineering design teams and your free time is now completely gone. Why are these things necessary? try getting accepted into a med school with merely a transcript and “I held a job.” Now you see the burden I face, and enjoy facing. I can work no more than I do; 10 hours a week isnt shit for affording an education.

98

An interesting topic and a good discussion so far.

Much like in discussions of terrorism, lumping all feminists together in one broad undifferentiated category muddies the issue and gives it short shrift. Go herehttp://www.amazoncastle.com/feminism/ecocult.shtml for one fairly clear set of explanations of the different types and tropes of feminism and feminist theory. You might also do a search for first wave, second wave and third wave feminism. Believe it or not, not all feminists are created equal, at least in their understanding of what feminism means. So that’s my, um, socio-political comment on feminism.

Personally, I think men and women are equally valuable. I would hate a world without either sex or a world where one or the other is not given the freedom to live as full a life as possible. If I use the the Hegelian Master-Slave Dialectic, both genders are diminished when one is not allowed to live a full life or have full self expression.

And seriously, what strong, confident man wouldn’t want a strong confident woman as his partner? Only a wimpy little coward would try to control or abuse a woman, or any other creature for that matter.

I have to say that as an American woman, I don’t suck (at least not in the bad way) and that if you assume all American women suck, you are going to meet alot of sucky women. You do tend to get what you focus on, after all.

As far as the family goes, the nature and composition of what a family unit is has changed many times throughout the history of humankind, as it is right now and as it shall ever be. I think the crisis is WAY overstated by certain elements in our society and it’s blamed on everything from feminism to gay rights to sun-spot activity. Any attempt to resist that change is a) inevitable and b) futile. It’s kind of like trying to stop a glacier from moving. And none of this in anyway stops anyone from creating a “traditional” nuclear family if that is what they are wanting. It would probably help if you choose a spouse that wants the same thing, though.

WMD

99

[quote]WMD wrote:
And none of this in anyway stops anyone from creating a “traditional” nuclear family if that is what they are wanting. It would probably help if you choose a spouse that wants the same thing, though.

WMD[/quote]

I am not advocating tradition, just the notion that blood is thicker than water. Parents stop casting children to the wayside, to “teach” them how to survive or otherwise. Stop abandoning your spouse, divorce is no excuse for abandonment. Stop disgarding you own parents to old age homes and retirement communities far from your daily cares. Stop, and when society forces your retirement maybe your children won’t do the same to you.

100

[quote]WMD wrote:
If I use the the Hegelian Master-Slave Dialectic, both genders are diminished when one is not allowed to live a full life or have full self expression.
WMD[/quote]

Shhh. You had me at “Hegelian Master-Slave Dialectic.”