American Military - We're Honored

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]juninho wrote:
PGJ wrote:
juninho wrote:
have to quickly add this before I head out:

Channel 4 news has just interviewed a US Security type bloke, (sorry - didn’t get the name but he’s obviously fairly high up). He has studied suicide bombers accross the globe, and says in 95% of occassions they have been motivated by secular, political motives, (as opposed to religious - so there goes the “oh they just want their 70 virgins in heaven” argument). He noted that Al Quaeda in particular is motivated not by religion, but by the presence of foreign forces on land they consider to be theirs - ie the Arabian peninsular.

In view of this, tell me exactly how you think invading Iraq will do anything other than incite more suicide bombers?

Hey dumb-ass. Do you think Al Quaeda reflects the views of the Iraqi or Afghan people? No. They were terrorists to their own people. Should whitey just completely pull out of all muslim nations? I think that is your opinion? What about muslims in western nations? Should we require them to leave? What happened to the great liberal view of one world where we all hug and kiss and act like good friends?

Do you even understand that you are arguing in favor of one of the most oppressive, brutal, violent, and intolerant forms of government. Fuck, you guys bitch about the supposed “Patriot Act” liberty violations, and in the same breath support Islamic fundamentalisim. Get your story straight.

ok, due to your complete inability to argue or even discuss these matters without using playground insults I am going to duck out of this thread, as it is clearly futile to continue. I fully expect a hugely witty comeback from you like “good riddance ass-wipe”, and if I bother to check how I’ll laugh.

Stay safe.[/quote]

Oh, I’m sorry for calling you a dumb-ass. Didn’t know you were so sensitive.

You guys consistently avoid direct questions like:

What is your grand plan for solving the problem?

Should all westerners pull out of muslim nations?

Should Muslims then be required to leave westerns nations?

What should we have done about Iraq?

Do you realize that you are supporting (and you do support them when you consider America the bad guys) the most brutal forms of dictatorship?

Do you believe Al Queada and the other terrorists from Syria, Lybia and Jordan, reflect the opinions of the Muslim people?

I have given you several opportunities to explain your position (as opposed to just simply bitching and complaining and spreading conspiracy). No one has stepped up to give an answer. I have done this on several other forums and the same thing always happens. I ask for their solutions, they offer none. They don’t even try. I usually get what you just wrote, something like “you obviously don’t get it so I’m not gonna waste my time.”

You guys are very good at expressing what you don’t like, but are dumbfounded when asked to present an alternate solution.

Here’s your chance.

162

What do you mean by “the problem?”

No, all Westerners shouldn’t be forced out of Muslim countries, but their military forces should be. You know that is what people mean when they say they want the US out of the Middle East.

Hmmm, what should we have done about Iraq? We should have let the fucking UN inspectors finish the job of inspecting, like the entire world wanted us to. Then, we would’ve known that they had no WMD’s without spending billions and billions of dollars, killing tens of thousands of citizen, sending thousands of soldiers to their deaths, and tarnishing the reputation of the US for decades to come.

If the Iraq war was about ending dictatorships, then why didn’t Bush immediately begin an anti-dicatorship campaign when he entered office? Why didn’t we start with other dicatorships around the world which were both worse and less formidable than that in Iraq? The war had NOTHING to do with ending a dictatorship.

There are your answers. You can quit harassing people on other forums about them now.

163

[quote]chinadoll wrote:

Oh B.S.

[/quote]

You’re right, Chinadoll; we are the only country with any freedom at all. Please inform the dozen or so other nations that rank higher than we do on the annual Freedom Index.

164

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Garish statements deserve to be paraded. The fact that the statement was NOT taken out of context is reinforced by his saying that all that is worthy of fighting for is himself and his prosperity.
[/quote]

The first statement WAS taken out of context, however, I can see how the second statement would reinforce your opinion of the first.

Original context: (Nominal prospect responding to a previous post by BH6)

When removed from context:

[quote] Pushharder wrote:
Third, “status quo” had nothing to do with it. I see you conveniently deleted his quote when you posted so here it is again,

(Nominal Prospect wrote:)
“… Furthermore, if the U.S. were ever actually threatened by another country, it would be a simple matter to move to Europe, or Canada, or certain parts of Asia, or Scandinavia…”.

He is saying if his country is ever (emphasis mine) threatened he is skedaddling.[/quote]

That is where you manipulated the context, whether intentional or not.

[quote]
He said all that is dear to him is himself and his prosperity.[/quote]

This is true and is indeed selfish, as he in fact admitted. He also believes that everyone is self-centred and the other modes of living are illusory.

One could therefore argue from his perspective that even your noble beliefs are in fact based around the underlying selfish root. So from his position there is no point in calling him selfish and may actually be considered hypocrisy.

Not necessarily my perspective, but interesting nonetheless.

I can understand how he might seem like a coward when the statement you quoted is taken out of original context and then transplanted into your own.

[quote]
As far as Europeans “enjoying the same rights” I feel I can take issue with that. Europeans do enjoy many of the same freedoms as Americans but not necessarily the same rights. There is a difference and if you wish to delve into that topic we may.[/quote]

You are right. We do not have the same in equivalence to the bill of rights. We do not have the right to bear arms, for example. I understand and apoligise for my use of the wrong word. He actually used the word freedoms, so that was completely my error.

In my opinion if you?re country was invaded you should fight. Even from a selfish perspective you should fight because your very existence is based around your right to your properties and well-being, which would be at stake. Nevermind your friends, family and innocent brethren.

This is perhaps why some Iraqis oppose the Allied forces in Iraq, regardless if the intentions are based on a better future.

165

[quote]JBraswell wrote:

Oh, I’m sorry for calling you a dumb-ass. Didn’t know you were so sensitive.

You guys consistently avoid direct questions like:

What is your grand plan for solving the problem?

Should all westerners pull out of muslim nations?

Should Muslims then be required to leave westerns nations?

What should we have done about Iraq?

Do you realize that you are supporting (and you do support them when you consider America the bad guys) the most brutal forms of dictatorship?

Do you believe Al Queada and the other terrorists from Syria, Lybia and Jordan, reflect the opinions of the Muslim people?

What do you mean by “the problem?”

No, all Westerners shouldn’t be forced out of Muslim countries, but their military forces should be. You know that is what people mean when they say they want the US out of the Middle East.

Hmmm, what should we have done about Iraq? We should have let the fucking UN inspectors finish the job of inspecting, like the entire world wanted us to. Then, we would’ve known that they had no WMD’s without spending billions and billions of dollars, killing tens of thousands of citizen, sending thousands of soldiers to their deaths, and tarnishing the reputation of the US for decades to come.

If the Iraq war was about ending dictatorships, then why didn’t Bush immediately begin an anti-dicatorship campaign when he entered office? Why didn’t we start with other dicatorships around the world which were both worse and less formidable than that in Iraq? The war had NOTHING to do with ending a dictatorship.

There are your answers. You can quit harassing people on other forums about them now. [/quote]

At least you tried.

What’s the problem? WTF? The problem is that we have Islamic terrorists attacking us, going back to the 70’s. That’s the problem.

The enemy wants ALL non-muslims out of their lands, not just the military. What do we do? Is this what all Muslims want or just the crazy fundamentalists?

Let the inspectors do their job? Are you seroius? Didn’t they get kicked out? Didn’t Iraq do about everything possible to detract them from doing their job? The inspectors did their job for about 10 years and got nothing but roadblocks at every corner. Yes, that’s a good idea. Give it to the UN. The thing is, we KNEW he had WMD’s. We saw them. We had records of them. Clinton launched a missle at a supposed storage facility. The problem is that Iraq could not prove that they got rid of them in compliance with UN sanctions. More inspections? Quit jerking off.

Anti-dictatorship? Who said that? This guy HAD WMD’s. We had reason to believe he would use them. Many Arab nations supported this and provided intel. There were terrorists training camps operating openly in Iraq. Do you believe that he was NOT supporting terrorism?

And would you guys quit with the “tarnishing the image of America” bs. That is stupid. It’s always been like that. First of all, who cares? Everyone seems real happy to take our money and support. Secondly, how many Americans have died to ensure the security of other nations? And still people hate us. That will never change.

166

[quote]JBraswell wrote:
chinadoll wrote:

Oh B.S.

You’re right, Chinadoll; we are the only country with any freedom at all. Please inform the dozen or so other nations that rank higher than we do on the annual Freedom Index.
[/quote]

WTF are you talking about. Don’t make up histrionic shit that I or anyone else never said or even believe. Get a grip.

167

[quote]PGJ wrote:
What’s the problem? WTF? The problem is that we have Islamic terrorists attacking us, going back to the 70’s. That’s the problem.
[/quote]
They are terrorists that happen to be Muslim. We don’t need to point out their religion just becasue they are not Christian. Do you use Christian’s religion against them when they commit crimes? From now on maybe we should. Those stupid catholic pedophiles…
No oone ever pointed out the fact that North Ireland terrorists were commiting crimes in the name of “their” religion.

So do many christians…why do you judge them. We have many people here like yourself that probably have the same issues with foreigners.

Who did he get the WMDs from? US you moron. Yes he did have them but not for a long time. He had been in the process of dismantling them since the mid-ninties.

No. The government tells us that we are serving the interests of other nations but really we are serving our own interests. For example, WWII: We didn’t give a rip about Hitler. We were just afraid that Stalin wouldn’t stop with Germany and take all of Europe…and we were more afraid of him than a Jew killer (Stalin also killed many Jews). Pretty bad, huh? The truth is the US has never acted totally in the interests of the rest of the world.

In fact I would go as far to say that it is becasue we take everything and leave nothing from the countries that produce it for us that the world hates us. We allow our companies to go into third world countries, use their cheap labor and their resources, and drop them a few pennies all the while allowing them to rack up debt that they will never be able to pay back to us because the value of their money is kept so low. The US talks a big game about helping others in need but really our actions speak differently. Greed!! That is why we are hated.

168

[quote]BoxBabaX wrote:
Troll? Oh come on, I thought you guys had already put him into the “conspiracy fruitcakes” category? lol. When did they start labeling those of opposing viewpoints as trolls? [/quote]

You guys? When did I say, “conspiracy fruitcakes”? I believe I used the term “Anti-American Americans”. Don’t argue for the sake of arguing.

The troll label has been applied because yourself included came into a thread about those of us whom feel honored by our military men and women’s service, took personal offense to it, and took opportunity to post your anti-american sentiments that tangentially have to do with the original topic. Whom is infringing upon whom in terms of rights to their opinions?

Seems you are so caught up in your own feelings that you can’t even let a simple internet thread be what it was intended. You have plenty of other opportunity to voice your opinions in threads related to the topics you discuss, but you still hijack other threads as well.

Seems a bit like sour grapes or maybe jealousy, the trolls know those guys and gals are step up men and women, they’re being recognized, and they’ve done all they can to hijack, distract, distort the facts, go off subject. Look at the negative posts about things that have nothing to do with the topic, the other anti-american americans have hijacked. Granted, I and others shouldn’t have allowed ourselves to be sucked in.

169

What does that have to do with Iraq? Which terrorists came from there? Iraq was one of the most secular regimes in the Middle East. We did a piss poor job in Afghanistan, the country in which the actual mastermind of 9/11 hid. Don’t you think we’d have had a MUCH better chance if we had just as many troops there as we do in Iraq?

Yeah, I’m sure they’re pissed about tourists. They want the military bases gone. Besides, once again I ask, what does this have to do with Iraq?

Clinton launched missiles to distract from his BJ fiasco. Dick Cheney sat up and said we KNOW where they are. Where the fuck are they? UN inspectors had been given free reign at the time of the invasion, and the head of the inspection team was saying that he hadn’t found any evidence of WMD’s and that they wanted more time to keep looking.

No, he didn’t have them. We have no evidence that he had them.

Besides, we had no business worrying about Iraq, which had been lying dormant for a decade, before we took care of the 9/11 perpetrator.

You sound like a skinny teenager who wears shitty clothes to a job interview. “I don’t care what people think of me!” I’m not saying that our reputation is the only thing that matters, but a mature person realizes the importance of maintaining good relations with peers and the humility of realizing that when everyone disagrees with you, you just MIGHT be wrong.

170

[quote]PGJ wrote:
What is your grand plan for solving the problem?
[/quote]

Ah yes, every opinion without solution is automatically null. What is your solution?

To develop an adequate solution you must first identify the problem, and this is what everyone is currently debating, so why do you ask everyone for a solution to a problem which you do not think exists? If you aren?t in accordance with the definition of the problem, how will them providing a solution to that problem change anything?

Either you see the problems they see, and are choosing to ignore it, for whatever reason, or you are simply using the question because you think it will debase their arguement, which you oppose. If they reply they are providing a solution to a problem which you dont believe exists, so they?re wrong. If they don?t reply then they don?t have a solution to the problem? You expect a discussion to continue under these conditions?

Black and White.

We?re either with you or against you, huh? The world couldn?t possibly be more complex than good guys and bad guys, right?! What do you think this is? Cowboys and Indians?

There are “good people” and “bad people” on both sides of every conflict. Who said that America were THE “bad guys”? As far as I have seen people have merely been trying to counter this blind childish assumption that America (and UK) are the “good guys”. How preposterous!

Can you actually concieve how cretinous the notion of “freedom fries” was? Because France wasn?t “on our side” on a particular issue people began seething with resentment at America?s oldest ally! The birth of the nation was eased by French aid and as a symbol in partnership for liberty the U.S. accepted The Statue of Liberty as a gift from the French!

“God is on our side”? That?s exactly what the terrorists say/think.

I don?t know if this Black and White mentality (Good guy v. Bad guy) you have comes from your military service, but it is the very same perspective that filters the worldview of terrorists, and blinds the world from a balanced perspective.

I think it would be naive to pretend that they don?t reflect at least some of their sentiments.

171

[quote]chinadoll wrote:
The troll label has been applied because yourself included came into a thread about those of us whom feel honored by our military men and women’s service, took personal offense to it, and took opportunity to post your anti-american sentiments that tangentially have to do with the original topic. Whom is infringing upon whom in terms of rights to their opinions?

[/quote]
There has not been one anti-American statement made on this post. In order to say that there has you would have to define what is American and what isn’t. I don’t think you or any one has any right to do that. We can express our discontent with the status quo. We can express our doubt about our presence in the Middle East.

We can express our opinion about the piss-poor job the administration has been doing with it’s middle east strategy and the military. We can express our opinions about how we don’t consider all military service men heroes. People like you cheapen what it actually means to be a hero. It’s not as simple as dawning a uniform and being ordered to fight a war. Green ribbons for everyone you’re all winners.

172

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
People like you cheapen what it actually means to be a hero. It’s not as simple as dawning a uniform and being ordered to fight a war. Green ribbons for everyone you’re all winners.[/quote]

Again, sour grapes and trying to distract the thread to your own issues.

173

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

We can express our opinion about the piss-poor job the administration has been doing with it’s middle east strategy and the military. We can express our opinions about how we don’t consider all military service men heroes.[/quote]

Sure you can express what you want, but please start your own thread.

174

[quote]chinadoll wrote:
Sure you can express what you want, but please start your own thread.
[/quote]
That is not how it works. What good would it do to start a new thread–then all the flag-waving, pseudo-patriot types can chime in and call me “anti-american”…? I’m just svaing them the work of having to read a new thread because that is how I roll.

175

[quote]JBraswell wrote:

You sound like a skinny teenager who wears shitty clothes to a job interview. “I don’t care what people think of me!” I’m not saying that our reputation is the only thing that matters, but a mature person realizes the importance of maintaining good relations with peers and the humility of realizing that when everyone disagrees with you, you just MIGHT be wrong.

[/quote]

buddy, this is going nowhere. None of you have answered the question as to what is your solution to the middle east issue. They’ve been a problem since the Barbary Pirates of the 1800’s. I guess what I’m getting from you guys is that we should pull completely out of all Islamic nations in order to appease a few nut-case suicide bombers. Forget that we have military stationed in Islamic nations, training their military personnel, at the request and permission of their governments. You guys want to bend over and take it dry from a small bunch of loonies who want anyone who isn’t their particular brand of Islam dead or enslaved, that’s pitiful.

I’m done arguing with you guys. You regurgitate the same stuff over and over and choose to believe Al Jazeera over our own government.

Teenager, sure. I’m a 17 year old punk with no job, lots of pimples and no education. Boy are you perceptive.

If you knew something about leadership, you would realize it has NOTHING to do with popularity. It’s lonely at the top and sometimes you have to make decisions that piss people off. Everyone was against Lincoln as well. Good thing he stuck to his guns when all the Democrats (the slavery party) were blasting him.

The amount of history-revisionism pseudo-intellectual backwards reasoning you and your buddies recite is frighteneing. You are America-haters. Do not deny it. Pure and simple.

I apologize to Chinadoll for assisting in the hijacking of this thread. It started out innocent and and heart-felt, then went to crap.

176

[quote]PGJ wrote:
I apologize to Chinadoll for assisting in the hijacking of this thread. It started out innocent and and heart-felt, then went to crap.
[/quote]

No worries, PGJ. I see what your intention was. Same for me, good intentions and heart-felt as well.

177

PGJ, You lasted way longer than I did. Good work devil dog.

178

[quote]BH6 wrote:
PGJ, You lasted way longer than I did. Good work devil dog.[/quote]

Thanks. I’m gonna have to take a break from the Political forums. I get too worked-up and it’s always the same arguments over and over. I should be doing work or playing with my kids instead.

Semper Fi

179

Well YOU haven’t answered why we invaded a country that had nothing to do with the pressing middle east problems to which you’re demanding a solution.

“Hey guys, I don’t know what to do about this problem, so, uh, let’s invade a country that has nothing to do with them! Right on!”

I like how you just lump the whole region together. “They’ve been a problem…” You do realize that there are multiple countries over there right, each with different cultures, motivations, politics, etc? Yeah, that same ignorance is why we’re in a country that had nothing to do with our terrorist attacks.

And, no, we shouldn’t pull out of the Mideast to appease nutjobs. We should do it because, as our Founding Fathers understood, it’s bad to meddle in other countries’ affairs, especially when we do it as stupidly as the US does.

And LOL at your rant about my revisionist history and assuming I’m a Democrat. I simply pointed out what everyone with an IQ over five knows, that this war was politically motivated and that the case for it was built on a stack of lies.

[quote]PGJ wrote:
buddy, this is going nowhere. None of you have answered the question as to what is your solution to the middle east issue. They’ve been a problem since the Barbary Pirates of the 1800’s. I guess what I’m getting from you guys is that we should pull completely out of all Islamic nations in order to appease a few nut-case suicide bombers. Forget that we have military stationed in Islamic nations, training their military personnel, at the request and permission of their governments. You guys want to bend over and take it dry from a small bunch of loonies who want anyone who isn’t their particular brand of Islam dead or enslaved, that’s pitiful.

I’m done arguing with you guys. You regurgitate the same stuff over and over and choose to believe Al Jazeera over our own government.

Teenager, sure. I’m a 17 year old punk with no job, lots of pimples and no education. Boy are you perceptive.

If you knew something about leadership, you would realize it has NOTHING to do with popularity. It’s lonely at the top and sometimes you have to make decisions that piss people off. Everyone was against Lincoln as well. Good thing he stuck to his guns when all the Democrats (the slavery party) were blasting him.

The amount of history-revisionism pseudo-intellectual backwards reasoning you and your buddies recite is frighteneing. You are America-haters. Do not deny it. Pure and simple.

I apologize to Chinadoll for assisting in the hijacking of this thread. It started out innocent and and heart-felt, then went to crap.
[/quote]

180

[quote]PGJ wrote:
BH6 wrote:
PGJ, You lasted way longer than I did. Good work devil dog.

Thanks. I’m gonna have to take a break from the Political forums. I get too worked-up and it’s always the same arguments over and over. I should be doing work or playing with my kids instead.

Semper Fi

[/quote]

Yes, strong work!

Semper Fi!