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Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Nominally speaking, of course, that’s EXACTLY what we would expect from a coward.

So because I wouldn’t risk my life to stand up for some mythical cause, I’m a coward?

That is bullshit.

I never signed onto your cause in the first place. Why should I stick around to defend it if things turn bad?

If you want to know true cowardice, you need only look at U.S. foreign policy.

chinadoll wrote:
True. That’s what a coward would do.

The coward only threatens when he is safe.
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Cowards, eh? What you just quoted sounds like a page right out of the U.S. foreign policy manual.

Your government bullies weak countries (too many to list) and appeases strong ones (Russia, China, N. Korea).

Have a short read:

Pathetic. This is the bully mentality that your cowardly troops are defending.

And they aren’t protecting this country. They’re paving the way for the next 9/11.[/quote]

OK, Nominal. Here’s your chance. Instead of simply complaining, tell me your plan for dealing with Islamic terrorism. Explain to us how you, if you were President, would fix our problems. Don’t complain unless you have a better idea. Let’s have it.

102

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Nominally speaking, of course, that’s EXACTLY what we would expect from a coward.

So because I wouldn’t risk my life to stand up for some mythical cause, I’m a coward?

That is bullshit.

I never signed onto your cause in the first place. Why should I stick around to defend it if things turn bad?

If you want to know true cowardice, you need only look at U.S. foreign policy.

chinadoll wrote:
True. That’s what a coward would do.

The coward only threatens when he is safe.
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Cowards, eh? What you just quoted sounds like a page right out of the U.S. foreign policy manual.

Your government bullies weak countries (too many to list) and appeases strong ones (Russia, China, N. Korea).

Have a short read:

Pathetic. This is the bully mentality that your cowardly troops are defending.

And they aren’t protecting this country. They’re paving the way for the next 9/11.[/quote]

OK, Nominal. Here’s your chance. Instead of simply complaining, tell me your plan for dealing with Islamic terrorism. Explain to us how you, if you were President, would fix our problems. Don’t complain unless you have a better idea. Let’s have it.

103

[quote]pushharder wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
… Furthermore, if the U.S. were ever actually threatened by another country, it would be a simple matter to move to Europe, or Canada, or certain parts of Asia, or Scandinavia…

Nominally speaking, of course, that’s EXACTLY what we would expect from a coward.

In fact, we here at T-Nation could take up a collection for your moving expenses and get you going right away. After all, why wait? You could avoid the long lines at the airport by leaving now.

Well, Nominal, which departure airport and which arrival city would you like to choose? We here at the T-Nation Git-Yor-Ass-Outta-the-U.S. Benevolent Fund are ready and willing to go online to www.expedia.com and take care of your one-way ticket for you. As far as destination countries are concerned, Canada would probably be the easiest to swing. Maybe Calgary, Alberta. There’s an Alberta Heifer there waiting, most likely, to take you in as a roommate til you get up and going with your new life.

Nominal Prospect wrote:
… Furthermore, if the U.S. were ever actually threatened by another country, it would be a simple matter to move to Europe, or Canada, or certain parts of Asia, or Scandinavia…

“Yikes”, said the Nominal Prospect, “if my country is ever threatened, I’ll have to roadrunner it right outta here. I hope I’ll have enough time to pack my panties”.

Good grief, NM, your vaginal secretions have got to be causing you a lot of problems especially in public. Go get medical help.[/quote]

Nominal is the biggest coward I’ve ever seen. The guy has NOTHING worth fighting for. He wouldn’t even fight to defend his own country. That is beyond sad. It’s pathetic. He believes his freedom is a sacred right that all nations enjoy. Simply by existing, he feels he deserves the rights and priviledges obtained through the sacrifice of those who fought tyrany. He’s a classic leach. A parasite on society.

Nominal, so America is attacked and defeated you run away to Canada. Don’t you think Canada is going to fall also? I guess then you zoom over to Europe. What do you think will happen to Europe if America and Canada fall? Come on dude, at some point in your life you are going to have to stand up for something. Do you honestly think there is another place on this planet that will offer you the same freedoms you have here?

104

ChinaDoll,

My son, age 15, wants to go to the Naval Academy and be an officer in the Marines eventually. It is for people such as you that I send my son to do this.

HH

105

[quote]PGJ wrote:
I try responding without flaming or name-calling.

I serve in the military because I love this nation. It has given me more than I deserve. I joined to give something back. If I have to give my life to fulfill my military duty, so be it.

War for natural resources is legitimate.
War to remove evil people from power is legitimate.
War to free enslaved people is legitimate.

I don’t pretend to know everything about politics and international wheeling-and-dealing. It’s complicated beyond comprehension.

Facts:

Saddam is an evil man.
Saddam bombed his own people with WMD’s (as well as thousands of other atrocities).
Iraq at one point had a large stockpile of WMD’s.
Iraq invaded Kuwait.
We invaded Kuwait and kicked Iraq out.
The war never ended. There was a cease-fire pending Iraqi compliance with UN sanctions.
Iraq did not comply.
The UN refused to do anything to enforce it’s own sanctions.
Iraq supported international terrorism.

Yes, most of the hijackers were from Saudi. However, Saudi is none of the above. Saudi wasn’t shooting at American airplanes. Saudi has no military to speak of and was not a threat to it’s neighbors. Iraq was a threat to international peace.

People bitch about high oil/gas prices then have the nerve to say war for oil is wrong. Western society runs on oil. Face it, we need it every day in large quanties. Even Birkenstocks and electric cars are made in factories that run on oil.

You say you support the troops, yet hate the mission. We’re all volunteers. Anyone who volunteered since 9/11 volunteered to go to Iraq. How can you support those who willingly go off to war for something you are against?

We are a nation born out of warfare. Our national anthem is about a battle. Our first president was our first great General. We are a nation of fighters. There is no other nation that has sacrificed so many of it’s soldiers to protect, not conquer, other nations.

War is horrible and should be avoided, but someone has to be willing to step up when everyone else cowers.

If you believe the conspiracy theories against the President, you have to believe he is an evil man. Not just a bad person or stupid. You have to believe he is evil. Do you believe he is evil? You would also have to believe everyone else involved in planning the war is evil.

Our troops are in Iraq now fighting for the freedom of Iraq as much as they are keeping the bad guys away from our own soil. Many people have a very hard time understanding this mentality of service beyond national security. I have yet to speak with anyone who has been there who said it’s all about oil.

All they talk about is how much the Iraqi’s appreciate us being there. Why isn’t this a big deal in the press? Good news doesn’t sell. Why don’t we see more cooperation from the Iraqi people? Because the terrorists will freakin’ kill them. Happens all the time.

This will take time. This is not a 30 minute TV show. God help us if we loose. I suggest you quit trying so hard to be a skeptic.

For as much as you claim:

“I’m not left, right, red, blue; I’m a fucking American, not a democrat, not a conservative, an American. How much of a dolt do you have to be to reference somebody based on their constant political standpoint rather than their INDIVIDUAL views?”

you sure do express the sentiment of the left. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck…it’s probably a duck. I have yet to see anyone make this claim (and there are many) without following up with liberal propaganda. Maybe you need to follow your own advice and start thinking for yourself.

[/quote]

Very, very good post. I believe you’ve hit the nail right on the head.

“Truly sad is the person who claims to be willing to sacrifice for nothing. Such a person can be nothing more than a self interested coward, someone who has never given themselves up to a cause bigger than themselves and certainly not worthy of the protection and freedom that their nations warriors provide for them.”

I particularly like your point about this taking time. People really did think that what we are doing over there would be over in a couple of months and back home safe and sound. The president has said from day one that this would be a long and difficult undertaking. But the benefits of a free and democratic nation in the middle east will benefit the entire world IMHO, not just the U.S.

Some of the folks on this forum sound like they are somewhere in the 18-23 yr old age group. It seems like kids in this age group generally are not willing to sacrifice for anything. And I mean nothing that doesn’t personnaly benefit them.

I once asked a kid that I worked with when I was a machine operator at the factory a question. I asked: “what if Hawaii or southern california or some other part of the U.S. was attacked. Would you be willing to fight to keep that part of the U.S free?”

His reply was: “I don’t know anyone there, and I’ve never been there. Why would I want to fight? Only if it was in my immediate area would I want to sign up and fight.”

I know that there are probably alot of great kids in this age range, but it sure seems like alot of folks from my generation and down sure are self involved and not very willing to sacrifice.

Boy we sure could use a little of what the greatest generation had right now.

106

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
My son, age 15, wants to go to the Naval Academy and be an officer in the Marines eventually. It is for people such as you that I send my son to do this.

HH[/quote]

Good for him HH. I hope that he is succesfull in his bid for the naval academy.

107

[quote]PGJ wrote:

OK, Nominal. Here’s your chance. Instead of simply complaining, tell me your plan for dealing with Islamic terrorism. Explain to us how you, if you were President, would fix our problems. Don’t complain unless you have a better idea. Let’s have it.

[/quote]

I’d organise a big outdoor rave, like they had in the early nineties. I’d invite representatives from every nation, and every terrorist/resistance/breakaway movement.

We’d take pills-a-plenty.

We’d dance all night.

New friends would be made, old scores forgotten and forgiven.

Condoleeza Rice would get it on with Bin Laden - not straight away, they’d be a bit stand offish at first, but then admit they both respect each other greatly, and then as the ecstacy works its way into their system they’d mistake the respect and heightened sense of pleasure for love.

Come the morning it would be a bit awkward, but everyone would agree that war is for tards and go and grab some breakfast at a 24 hour cafe or something. Then back to 10 Downing street for some smokes and a listen to Tony’s new chillout-moods CD.

108

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
ChinaDoll,

My son, age 15, wants to go to the Naval Academy and be an officer in the Marines eventually. It is for people such as you that I send my son to do this.

HH[/quote]

That is a lofty goal. The military academies are some of the hardest to get into and well worth it. I recommend he get highly involved in volunteer service. Find out of there is a local Naval Academy organization nearby. I think is’t called “Blue and yellow” or “Blue and Gold”. These are Naval Academy grads who assist in getting folks into the school. Your son will also need a Congressional recommendation. I think I read that they only take like 10% of the applicants. Get him involved in as many things that will set him apart from his peers. Guys with only good grades won’t make it. They are looking for guys with good grades, varsity sports, volunteer/community service, strong morals, and school club participation. Let him know that there are also other ways to becoming a Marine Officer, if that’s his primary goal. Tell his I said good good luck and he can contact me with any questions.

109

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
ChinaDoll,

My son, age 15, wants to go to the Naval Academy and be an officer in the Marines eventually. It is for people such as you that I send my son to do this.

HH[/quote]

That is a lofty goal. The military academies are some of the hardest to get into and well worth it. I recommend he get highly involved in volunteer service. Find out of there is a local Naval Academy organization nearby. I think is’t called “Blue and yellow” or “Blue and Gold”. These are Naval Academy grads who assist in getting folks into the school. Your son will also need a Congressional recommendation. I think I read that they only take like 10% of the applicants. Get him involved in as many things that will set him apart from his peers. Guys with only good grades won’t make it. They are looking for guys with good grades, varsity sports, volunteer/community service, strong morals, and school club participation. Let him know that there are also other ways to becoming a Marine Officer, if that’s his primary goal. Tell his I said good good luck and he can contact me with any questions.

110

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

Very, very good post. I believe you’ve hit the nail right on the head.

“Truly sad is the person who claims to be willing to sacrifice for nothing. Such a person can be nothing more than a self interested coward, someone who has never given themselves up to a cause bigger than themselves and certainly not worthy of the protection and freedom that their nations warriors provide for them.”

I particularly like your point about this taking time. People really did think that what we are doing over there would be over in a couple of months and back home safe and sound. The president has said from day one that this would be a long and difficult undertaking. But the benefits of a free and democratic nation in the middle east will benefit the entire world IMHO, not just the U.S.

Some of the folks on this forum sound like they are somewhere in the 18-23 yr old age group. It seems like kids in this age group generally are not willing to sacrifice for anything. And I mean nothing that doesn’t personnaly benefit them.

I once asked a kid that I worked with when I was a machine operator at the factory a question. I asked: “what if Hawaii or southern california or some other part of the U.S. was attacked. Would you be willing to fight to keep that part of the U.S free?”

His reply was: “I don’t know anyone there, and I’ve never been there. Why would I want to fight? Only if it was in my immediate area would I want to sign up and fight.”

I know that there are probably alot of great kids in this age range, but it sure seems like alot of folks from my generation and down sure are self involved and not very willing to sacrifice.

Boy we sure could use a little of what the greatest generation had right now.
[/quote]

Thanks for the props. To me this generation is about 50/50. 50% are leaches who can’t see beyond next week or the next party, and 50% give willingly and do great things. I always tell my new Marines when they check in that I admire them for voluntarily joining the military in a time of war. I joined in 93 when nothing was going on. Many of the cold-war military folks joined for the benefits, steady paycheck, and cool uniforms. The thought of war was remote at best. Today, these guys and gals join to fight. They ALL know they will most likely end up in Iraq very soon. And recruiting is doing pretty well. I respect that part of this generation and I believe they are the future. These guys are every bit as tough and dedicated as any generation and a lot smarter.

111

[quote]PGJ wrote:
MisterAmazing wrote:
I understand this post is late in correlation to when this thread was began but I was just sifting through the posts and decided to chime in.

First, I’d like to begin by stating that I agree with Chinadoll and support our troops 100%, they’re amazing, brave, men and women that I have nothing but love and respect for.

Now, after this box posted a negative remark regarding the administration and got flamed for it, when he said nothing negative regarding the troops. I agree with box entirely. Yes, you support the troops, but the administration is getting the troops killed. They’re not over there dying for our freedom now, they’re dying so the administration and their close affiliates can profit off this war.

Call him a ‘lefty’, or call me it, I could really care less what your opinion is to be quite honest. You’re stupid -

Almost all the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi Arabian, so if what the administration is doing is right, why did we invade Afghanistan/Iraq? Why didn’t we invade the Saudis? Oh yeah I forgot! Saudis=oil=money
So our men and women serving in the military, whom you all respect, die so a small fraction fo the administration can get wealthier, but you bash people for disagreeing with the adminstration?

It makes me wonder if people are brainwashed or born so ignorant. I’ve read so many posts not only on this thread but just the political forms in general, and I see it so much. The idiots that never question, that never think for themselves, that give their minds over to the administration, because that’s their political party. If that’s you, and you know who you are; you’re a moron.

You let them send our troops to die for profits, you let them piss on our civil rights, where does it end? Where do we stand up and start thinking again, the founding fathers warned of this time and time again, but what do I know, I’m not a conservative! I’m a communist, terrorist, oh whatever come up with another dumbass word to call me, make it creative. I love my nation, I love the troops, I hate the jerkoffs that are deterring this great land from what we started out to be.

I try responding without flaming or name-calling.

What a gentleman

I serve in the military because I love this nation. It has given me more than I deserve. I joined to give something back. If I have to give my life to fulfill my military duty, so be it.

I respect you for this

War for natural resources is legitimate.
War to remove evil people from power is legitimate.
War to free enslaved people is legitimate.

War to let a select group of powerful men make money at the expense of our soldiers’ lives is illegitimate.

I don’t pretend to know everything about politics and international wheeling-and-dealing. It’s complicated beyond comprehension.

It’s not complicated - it’s lies and bullshit.

Facts:

Saddam is an evil man.
Saddam bombed his own people with WMD’s (as well as thousands of other atrocities).
Iraq at one point had a large stockpile of WMD’s.
Iraq invaded Kuwait.
We invaded Kuwait and kicked Iraq out.
The war never ended. There was a cease-fire pending Iraqi compliance with UN sanctions.
Iraq did not comply.
The UN refused to do anything to enforce it’s own sanctions.
Iraq supported international terrorism.

Yes, I agree. Fuck Saddam, but you’re forgetting who gave him those chemical weapons to go to war with Iran. It was us.

Yes, most of the hijackers were from Saudi. However, Saudi is none of the above. Saudi wasn’t shooting at American airplanes. Saudi has no military to speak of and was not a threat to it’s neighbors. Iraq was a threat to international peace.

Saudis didn’t shoot at American planes, they hijacked them. No military - only terrorists and major funding of terrorist entities.

People bitch about high oil/gas prices then have the nerve to say war for oil is wrong. Western society runs on oil. Face it, we need it every day in large quanties. Even Birkenstocks and electric cars are made in factories that run on oil.

You say you support the troops, yet hate the mission. We’re all volunteers. Anyone who volunteered since 9/11 volunteered to go to Iraq. How can you support those who willingly go off to war for something you are against?

I support them because they’re like you; they love their nation and want to defend it, but don’t quite realize they’re disposable and the mission isn’t defense, it isn’t freedom, it’s a bullshit mission. I truly feel sorry that you actually believe in the cause, you’re definitely a good man, and a man of principle as far as I can see, you’re just afraid to accept the fact that the government is HUMAN, humans DO make mistakes, who’s to say they’re right?

We are a nation born out of warfare. Our national anthem is about a battle. Our first president was our first great General. We are a nation of fighters. There is no other nation that has sacrificed so many of it’s soldiers to protect, not conquer, other nations.

Most of the time it was to protect other nations, not ourselves.

War is horrible and should be avoided, but someone has to be willing to step up when everyone else cowers.

You’re right, so let’s step up to the nation that actually attacked us.

If you believe the conspiracy theories against the President, you have to believe he is an evil man. Not just a bad person or stupid. You have to believe he is evil. Do you believe he is evil? You would also have to believe everyone else involved in planning the war is evil.

I don’t believe he’s evil, I think he has the IQ of a soda can. He’s a puppet, the idiot probably goes to his advisors to tie his shoes. He isn’t running this war, or the country, there’s others doing that, and those like our good old VP making billions in his Halliburton stock shares are evil .

Our troops are in Iraq now fighting for the freedom of Iraq as much as they are keeping the bad guys away from our own soil. Many people have a very hard time understanding this mentality of service beyond national security. I have yet to speak with anyone who has been there who said it’s all about oil.

That’s because they’re as misguided as you are. Freedom of Iraq? Haha, wow, didn’t want to get unintellectual, but really, you honestly fucking believe that? C’mon, that’s the biggest bullshit gimmick ever.

All they talk about is how much the Iraqi’s appreciate us being there. Why isn’t this a big deal in the press? Good news doesn’t sell. Why don’t we see more cooperation from the Iraqi people? Because the terrorists will freakin’ kill them. Happens all the time.

Yes, we saved them from Saddam. Saddam is a jerkoff, great. But are we withdrawing? Are we letting them run their own country now? Nah, the oil hasn’t all been extracted yet. Learn from the past, Vietnam - what a sin we never learn.

This will take time. This is not a 30 minute TV show. God help us if we loose. I suggest you quit trying so hard to be a skeptic.

So stop being skeptic means stop thinking outside the box and being a zombie to all this propagated bullshit on television daily?

For as much as you claim:

“I’m not left, right, red, blue; I’m a fucking American, not a democrat, not a conservative, an American. How much of a dolt do you have to be to reference somebody based on their constant political standpoint rather than their INDIVIDUAL views?”

you sure do express the sentiment of the left. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck…it’s probably a duck. I have yet to see anyone make this claim (and there are many) without following up with liberal propaganda. Maybe you need to follow your own advice and start thinking for yourself.

Liberal? Haha, please, they’re both scum. I’m far from liberal, I actually support some conservative occurrences with the exception of the Patriot Act shitting on our rights and this whole war thing.

“What luck for leaders that men do not think”

  • Hitler

[/quote]

112

[quote]chinadoll wrote:
What’s disappointing to me is the Anti-American Amercians. Not as bad to hear anti-american sentiment from other countries, but from Americans, that’s like selling your mother. Cowardly. Fuck that.
[/quote]
I think you mistake anit-Americanism with anti-American-policy-ism; specifically the current policies this admin thinks is necessary that in retrospect have brought our foreign relations backwards 2 decades.

113

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
My son, age 15, wants to go to the Naval Academy and be an officer in the Marines eventually. It is for people such as you that I send my son to do this.

HH
[/quote]
The war doesn’t need anymore officers…it needs bodies to do the work. How 19th century of you to offer up your son in sacrifice to such a non-cause.

114

God bless our troups and all those who put themselves in harms way so that we can live peacefully and bitch about gas prices. Thanks to the sacrafice of many we have such luxuries and are spoiled and blessed beyond our deserve.

115

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
And they aren’t protecting this country. They’re paving the way for the next 9/11.[/quote]

Is that what you’re afraid of?

116

[quote]PGJ wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
And they aren’t protecting this country. They’re paving the way for the next 9/11.

OK, Nominal. Here’s your chance. Instead of simply complaining, tell me your plan for dealing with Islamic terrorism. Explain to us how you, if you were President, would fix our problems. Don’t complain unless you have a better idea. Let’s have it.
[/quote]

Another 911 would have happened anyway. Moreso if we sat back and cowered.

Yes. I’m open to other suggestions. But our “being nice” approach to terrorism, after 911, fuck that. It’s like my law enforcement example, you’re dealing with a much more formidable force. It requires a much heavier hand.

Yes, I’ve read all the opposing theories and opinions. No, I’m not blind to our country’s shortcomings.

Now, more than ever, is the time to be unified. You may hate the president, hate some of the U.S. policies, but don’t turn on your own fellow countrymen. We’re in this together. The terrorists WANT Americans to be divided, their opportunity is in the weakesses that arise from our lack of unity. Stand strong.

117

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
My son, age 15, wants to go to the Naval Academy and be an officer in the Marines eventually. It is for people such as you that I send my son to do this.

HH

The war doesn’t need anymore officers…it needs bodies to do the work. How 19th century of you to offer up your son in sacrifice to such a non-cause.[/quote]

What is your realm of expertiese that you offer up such advice. Tell me of your military experience. How about your political experience? Tell me your grand-plan for fixing the world. Please.

118

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
chinadoll wrote:
What’s disappointing to me is the Anti-American Amercians. Not as bad to hear anti-american sentiment from other countries, but from Americans, that’s like selling your mother. Cowardly. Fuck that.

I think you mistake anit-Americanism with anti-American-policy-ism; specifically the current policies this admin thinks is necessary that in retrospect have brought our foreign relations backwards 2 decades.[/quote]

Again, what is your experience if foreign relations? I went to High School in England back in the 80’s. Everyone hated us back then also. Kids used to come out and throw rocks at our bus. People used to lay down in the street in front of the military base where our school was so that nobody could get in or out. I could care less about foreign relations, I’m worried about domestic relations. There seems to be many Americans who would rather bend over for the Muslims than fight for our peace and security. Suddenly WE are our own enemy.

119

[quote]chinadoll wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
And they aren’t protecting this country. They’re paving the way for the next 9/11.

Is that what you’re afraid of?

[/quote]
I think we are not so much afraid as we are cynical of our Admins intentions.