American Education

[Aragorn]

@dchris

What the hell. I don’t have kids. How drunk was I when I typed that?

Fucking Lol! Must have been good times.

[EyeDentist]

@Aragorn

Agree here but with an addendum–there are many differences between the plight of the Irish of the 19th century (and other immigrant groups like Germans,etc) and the plight that blacks went through. You can talk about many different aspects, but one I believe salient is that in many ways there was no help from government for them regarding discrimination in employment etc.

I can think of another difference between the plight of European immigrants of the 19th/20th centuries and that of blacks–a difference some might say is more impactful than whether government help was proffered…

[anon71262119]

@Basement_Gainz

This is a thread about education though and we’re still talking about culture. I don’t have the answer here. But after 60 years of “great society” programs alot of black people are living in violent slums with destroyed nuclear families and no hope. There are many poor whites living in ugly conditions too, but they don’t have to contend with the violence near as much.

What’s the solution?

I liked @MoreMuscle’s response to this about jobs. Also, we have the marriage gap in poor urban areas. That’s a cultural thing, a lot of progressives don’t like to talk about it, but when we close it, poverty drops into the single digits for everybody, including Blacks. That’s hopeful. You don’t have to vanquish racism if you can start addressing that.

It’s impossible NOT to bring culture and race into the education debate because education is such a big part of the problem. I said this in another thread recently, but even if you can’t close the marriage gap completely, just supporting single mothers with finishing their educations, learning job skills is huge. Sorry if I’m looking at this through a female lens. I think we’re failing poor inner city kids.

@MoreMuscle

Pretty accurate, though I will say there are a lot of parents that valueacademic achievement in impoverished, minority, areas but are unable toovercome the effects of peers. Show me your friends and I’ll show you your future is really, really true.

Yes. I worked in elementary schools and did preschool diagnostics in a poor urban area. People love their kids. Poor people love their kids, they just don’t always have the parenting skills that are going to drive college-bound or trade-school bound kids because they didn’t do those things.

@SkyzykS

Then she moved to teaching kids with behavior disorders, and kind of burned out with that. The emotional toll it takes is very high

Serious props for this. Some of these kids are sooo hard, and they’ll just break your heart. Believe me, I get along just fine with rowdy little ADHD kids, but some of these teachers are dealing with some really hard situations with kids who are violent, really unpredictable, attachment disorders, etc… Kids that need residential treatment, but that’s another topic. The schools have been the payer of last resort for this kind of thing, and the costs can be astronomical.

@SkyzykS

Of course, we also have our own little boy wonder at home too. He’s doing pretty good at reading Thomas The Tank Engine books and doing finger math at 4yrs. old!

I want him.

@SkyzykS

What do you guys think of this-

The Pittsburgh Promise

I think it’s cool. I like that they also award scholarships for kids going to trade schools, and not just for kids who are college-bound. I like that a lot!

I couldn’t readily find their financials, but they are rated by Charity Navigator.

[dchris]

@Aragorn

Fucking Lol! Must have been good times.

I had to call all my ex’s to figure out which one had been holding out on me. My therapist thinks i might have memory dissociative disorder and only remember my kids while I’m drinking. Made for crazy V day.

I feel like Aaron and Roy from primal fear.

[anon71262119]

Ha! That was me talking about kids! Quote within a quote fail.

How do you quote two people now? If I want to quote both you, and Aragorn’s response to you?

[dchris]

@anon71262119

How do you quote two people now?

@dchris

I feel like Aaron and Roy from primal fear.

Like this ^^ I just highlight the text click ‘quote’ then highlight the next text and hit ‘quote’

I don’t know how to do a quote with someone else’s quote included.

[MoreMuscle]

@Aragorn

I did get a really good chuckle out of the insurance story, but at the same time it made me feel depressed lol. So much potential–and even the little bit of good intentions to try to leave his kid something to live with.

Lol…yeah man no pension in that line of work. I mean if I was him, I would have a yugeee life insurance policy if I could manage it. He knew what he was doing.

[MoreMuscle]

@Aragorn

I think this is a fascinating aspect when looking at two different groups with the same racial appearance and heritage–the difference in perspective is very stark. I also think there’s something to what the ‘born in Africa’ group is saying. I’ve had a handful of interaction with members of the same group.

Unless you’re in Zimbabwe or South Africa…most countries over there, everyone looks like you. I don’t know if you can even call it the same heritage. Most African-Americans don’t know of any sort of heritage prior to “my ancestor was a slave.”

When you look at the messages and images you receive growing up, hardship in Africa could be related to a miasma of things, but unless you’re in one of those two countries I mentioned earlier, racism is not one of them. That alone changes how you allow it to affect you, your mindset, and your life. Its perceived control over said life.

@Aragorn

Very true in many cases. I don’t know what exactly needs to be done to ameliorate that, but I do know that at least half of that statement has relatively actionable fixes (“without the help of the government”). If you can get people to believe they don’t need the government, eventually more may make the jump to not worrying about white people cosigning/etc.

It’s challenging. But, just having people that do it, and encourage the same to others is huge. There is also a huge disconnect between classes of Black folks. I think @Basement_Gainz mentioned earlier about the “Uncle Tom’s.” I mean hell, from elementary school through high school as a kid I heard that I talked “White” from peers. Generally you heard that from kids that were from poorer areas, and didn’t know the extent to which they were brainwashed. How insane is it to believe that speaking intelligently is associated with “White?” That is reality in the hood my friend.

@Aragorn

Incredibly damaging and also something that can only be fixed by internalization. I don’t think there is any way public policy or government can help that. Just like a person in fitness believing that they’re doomed to be fat or weak, they have to will themselves to change. And that is really fucking hard, particularly with the situations you speak of.

Yeah. Goes back to the self-limiting statements we talked about a while back. Ultimately, we’re out here trying to do therapy for people who don’t even know they’re fucked up lol. It’s challenging, but very rewarding.

[MoreMuscle]

@anon71262119

I liked @MoreMuscle’s response to this about jobs. Also, we have the marriage gap in poor urban areas. That’s a cultural thing, a lot of progressives don’t like to talk about it, but when we close it, poverty drops into the single digits for everybody, including Blacks. That’s hopeful. You don’t have to vanquish racism if you can start addressing that.

This is true. I believe this and economic opportunity are tied together tightly.

@anon71262119

I said this in another thread recently, but even if you can’t close the marriage gap completely, just supporting single mothers with finishing their educations, learning job skills is huge. Sorry if I’m looking at this through a female lens. I think we’re failing poor inner city kids.

Don’t apologize for looking at it from your perspective!!!

[Aragorn]

@EyeDentist

I can think of another difference between the plight of European immigrants of the 19th/20th centuries and that of blacks–a difference some might say is more impactful than whether government help was proffered…

I can think of MANY extremely significant differences–and I said as much in the part you quoted. I prefaced it that way specifically in the hopes of avoiding the rejoinder you implied and focus on only one aspect.

[Basement_Gainz]

@MoreMuscle

Unless you’re in Zimbabwe or South Africa…most countries over there, everyone looks like you.

The difference in cultures between poor folks who emigrated from Africa and poor A-A’s from here is shocking.

My wife made good friends with a woman from Kenya in college. She came here legally at 15yo and did high school here (in a tough neighborhood), earning her citizenship at 22yo. I remember her saying “I can’t date black guys from the states, they suck, no respect at all. And I can’t date guys any other color because my family would disown me.”

She ended up finding a dating service for black immigrants only and married a guy from Trinidad. We had them out to the house for a visit. They brought their 3 month old (fattest baby ever). We had a great time, I taught them how to shoot handguns. When buying houses came up she literally said “we want to live in the richest, whitest school district in the area so our baby will have the best chance. Property taxes be damned.”

Can’t fault that logic, but a sad commentary on schools in the US.

[Aragorn]

@MoreMuscle

It’s challenging. But, just having people that do it, and encourage the same to others is huge. There is also a huge disconnect between classes of Black folks. I think @Basement_Gainz mentioned earlier about the “Uncle Tom’s.” I mean hell, from elementary school through high school as a kid I heard that I talked “White” from peers. Generally you heard that from kids that were from poorer areas, and didn’t know the extent to which they were brainwashed. How insane is it to believe that speaking intelligently is associated with “White?” That is reality in the hood my friend.

Another really good post but just quoting this part. I agree completely, and it’s sad. The reality is that a large part of success comes down to simple daily habits. You have to work on those habits to see the rest of the story, and one of the saddest parts I see in this whole mess is the whole successful black person referred to as Uncle Tom because they don’t toe the stereotype in mind for “raised black” in language or political alignment. Add to that that “Uncle Tom” is one of my least favorite insults ever because most people in life could only hope to be a fraction as good as Tom was in the book.

[EyeDentist]

@Aragorn

I can think of MANY extremely significant differences–and I said as much in the part you quoted. I prefaced it that way specifically in the hopes of avoiding the rejoinder you implied and focus on only one aspect.

There are aspects, and then there are aspects. I would be curious to hear why you chose the ‘government assistance’ aspect as the one worth addressing.

[Aragorn]

@MoreMuscle

[quote]Powerpuff:
I liked @MoreMuscle’s response to this about jobs. Also, we have the marriage gap in poor urban areas. That’s a cultural thing, a lot of progressives don’t like to talk about it, but when we close it, poverty drops into the single digits for everybody, including Blacks. That’s hopeful. You don’t have to vanquish racism if you can start addressing that.

This is true. I believe this and economic opportunity are tied together tightly.[/quote]

Yes indeed. I think it’s a tragedy that Moynihan Report was pilloried because it had a lot of substance that is playing out now.

[Aragorn]

@EyeDentist

I would be curious to hear why you chose the ‘government assistance’ aspect as the one worth addressing.

Because I thought it was self-evident that slavery and jim crow were key. Apparently I was wrong and it wasn’t self-evident. Then just look at MoreMuscle’s post below mine–he hits exactly on where I was going to go with it.

@MoreMuscle

Major Effect:-Black folks think that they can’t do anything without a White person cosigning/allowing them to do it or without the help of the government.

This is internalized.

[ActivitiesGuy]

@dchris

I don’t know how to do a quote with someone else’s quote included.

I’m glad that I’m not the only one who still hasn’t figured this out, lol.

[MoreMuscle]

Two very different groups of people. I love you taught them to shoot guns. My country teammates taught me to shoot compound bows and shotguns lol goodtimes.

[dchris]

@ActivitiesGuy

@dchris

I don’t know how to do a quote with someone else’s quote included.

I’m glad that I’m not the only one who still hasn’t figured this out, lo

Well, shoot. I just figured it out. It’s tedious and requires you to place one quote inside the other.

[MoreMuscle]

@Aragorn

The reality is that a large part of success comes down to simple daily habits. You have to work on those habits to see the rest of the story

Absolutely. Tony Robbins is brilliant on this.

@Aragorn

and one of the saddest parts I see in this whole mess is the whole successful black person referred to as Uncle Tom because they don’t toe the stereotype in mind for “raised black” in language or political alignment.

Do you notice this as a S&C Coach as well? I guess it depends where you are…but the generally get to see a myriad of people.

In reference to Uncle Tom…Yeah It’s pretty twisted.
Interesting article on it if you’re interested:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.theroot.com/when-uncle-tom-became-an-insult-1790879561/amp?client=ms-android-verizon

[EyeDentist]

@Aragorn

Then just look at MoreMuscle’s post below mine–he hits exactly on where I was going to go with it.

You seem to be suggesting that government assistance is the major driver regarding the sense of socioeconomic inferiority @MoreMuscle discussed. That’s not how I read his comment.