[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Suppose you’re a dad of a son who died in conquering Japan. President Truman says to you: “We had the means to end the war but didn’t use it, because of our concern for Japanese innocents. Sorry your son is dead.”
Would you spit in his face? I would.[/quote]
Would you remind me of how many of the “sons” died in Vietnam and for what reason?
The reason for bombing Japan was to set an example.
[quote]lixy wrote:
…But here’s somewhere you could start to convince yourself once and for all:
http://www.rense.com/general29/wesold.htm
[/quote]
From your own link:
Much of what Iraq received from the US, however, were not arms per se, but so-called dual-use technology? mainframe computers, armored ambulances, helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian uses as well as military applications…
and
In December 2002, Iraq’s 1,200 page Weapons Declaration revealed a list of Eastern and Western corporations and countries?as well as individuals?that exported chemical and biological materials to Iraq in the past two decades. By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm of Singapore supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq. [12]
By contrast, Alcolac International, for example, a Maryland company, transported thiodiglycol, a mustard gas precursor, to Iraq. Alcolac was small and was successfully prosecuted for its violations of export control law. The firm pleaded guilty in 1989. A full list of American companies and their involvements in Iraq was provided by The LA Weekly in May 2003. [13]
…
The overwhelming majority came from other sources and we prosecuted those in the US that sold him that shit!
No where in your post do you note that the US was a minor supplier. You make it seem we were the major supplier.
You try to tie us in with his gassing of the Kurds? That is despicable.
It was this action that prompted the US to sever ties with this monster.
Your intellectual dishonesty only reinforces my initial impression that you have an anti-American bias and will deceive and post half-truths to spread it.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
From your own link:
Much of what Iraq received from the US, however, were not arms per se, but so-called dual-use technology? mainframe computers, armored ambulances, helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian uses as well as military applications…
and
In December 2002, Iraq’s 1,200 page Weapons Declaration revealed a list of Eastern and Western corporations and countries?as well as individuals?that exported chemical and biological materials to Iraq in the past two decades. By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm of Singapore supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq. [12]
By contrast, Alcolac International, for example, a Maryland company, transported thiodiglycol, a mustard gas precursor, to Iraq. Alcolac was small and was successfully prosecuted for its violations of export control law. The firm pleaded guilty in 1989. A full list of American companies and their involvements in Iraq was provided by The LA Weekly in May 2003. [13]
…
The overwhelming majority came from other sources and we prosecuted those in the US that sold him that shit!
No where in your post do you note that the US was a minor supplier. You make it seem we were the major supplier.
You try to tie us in with his gassing of the Kurds? That is despicable.
It was this action that prompted the US to sever ties with this monster.
Your intellectual dishonesty only reinforces my initial impression that you have an anti-American bias and will deceive and post half-truths to spread it.[/quote]
Zap, you had the temerity to actually read the source? Have you no shame?
As for whether Saddam was a terrorist supporter or not:
He OPENLY rewarded the families of suicide bombers who attacked Israel with checks as high as $25,000. The news accounts says he put out between 10 and 20 million dollars for suicide attacks against Israel over 18 months.
http://www.mideastnews.com/sucidereward.htm
Some one enlighten me-how is that not supporting terrorism? Is the reasoning- it wasn’t “Al Qada” so it doesnt count?
Openly paying for suicide bombers to attack the West counts enough for me. Doesnt matter which gang affiliation they claim.
I know this much - neither he nor his government has paid out for any brainwashed asshole suicide bombers the last three years or so.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
No where in your post do you note that the US was a minor supplier. You make it seem we were the major supplier.[/quote]
I live in the real world. I know that Iran bothered all western powers, so I assumed nobody would be naive enough to interpret it as meaning major supplier. Plus, this thread is about American atrocities.
I’m clearly not the only one who believes that it is the case.
On August 18, 2002, the New York Times carried a front-page story headlined, “Officers say U.S. aided Iraq despite the use of gas”. Did you forget about that?
A lot of other research has concluded the same thing. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52241-2002Dec29?language=printer
Reagan was a horrible man who was responsible for the state-directed terrorist war against Nicaragua, the debacle of Elsalvador, trained and armed Ben Laden and the Taliban, openly supported the Apartheid regime in South Africa…
Do you expect me to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the Iraqi issue?
Duh! Of course, I have an anti-American bias. But it only stems from the sufferings that were caused by American foreign policies.
What possible gain can I (or the masses of your fellow progressive Americans) get from throwing gratuitous accusations at your country? Do you seriously think anybody is jealous of your freedoms? Get over it! The answer to the “why do they hate us” question lies in your tax money being used to wage murderous wars and support dictatorships.
Saddam and Iraq were on the list of terrorist states for quite a while before Reagan decided to remove him. The regime change in Teheran in the early 80’s meant that the US needed an ally to counter the Iranians’ succesful defiance. That’s the only reason they voluntarily overlooked his monsterous side. Heck, I was five years old when I learned that the guy was a barbarian no-good SOB.
You guys seem to believe that violence can fix any problem, money buy anybody and that the rest of the world is out to get you.
Try to read the foreign press once in a while. I understand that you are limited to Australian and British press but if you look carefully, a lot of papers translate their issues to English nowadays. Also, travel a bit, keep an open mind and talk to educated people.
I have nothing against you guys. I can’t hold you accountable for what your administration did in the past, neither for what it is currently doing. Forgive me if I sound a bit harsh on some of my posts, but I’ve been shocked by the degree of indoctrination in this forum. All (I repeat ALL) of Americans I hang out with in real life (now or in the past) acknowledge the empirialistic ambitions and bully tactics of their country. It’s just common sense: If you have power, chances are that will use it. Most forums I participate in, and though they’re American based, don’t sound so apologetic about whatever horror the US perpetrated. Please understand my awe when I discovered that there exists a base that supported those actions and tried to rationalize mass murder.
But if you sincerely believe that America cares about spreading democracy, then, well…I should stop dreaming that a change will come and buy myself a piece of land on the Moon just in case.
A tag on the walls of Geneva: “Gardons le pessimisme pour des jours meilleurs”
Translates to: “Let’s keep pessimism for better days”.
[quote]lixy wrote:
…
Duh! Of course, I have an anti-American bias. … [/quote]
You need say no more.
[quote]lixy wrote:
All (I repeat ALL) of Americans I hang out with in real life (now or in the past) acknowledge the empirialistic ambitions and bully tactics of their country.
Too funny.
Hey genius NONE of the Americans I “hang out with” would take your pseudo-intellectual crap seriously. I doubt the Americans I know would “hang out” with you either. Am I supposed to be surprised that YOUR friends agree with YOUR views? Am I supposed to acknowledge the “empirialistic ambitions” of the US and then we can become friends too?
“Bully tactics” between countries? What are you, twelve? Nobody I know over twelve is so naive. You mean to tell me that the American government is looking out for American interests first? Man, that’s shocking. Thanks for making me aware. I’m sure all the other countries of the planet must follow some other rule of thumb.
I am willing to guess that if you really focused that giant intelect of yours in the right places - you might find other countries besides the US that use what you describe as “bully tactics”.
Hey, I bet if you had your pseudo intellectual friends help you - you guys could find some of the world’s problems that AREN’T the fault of the Americans.
I am betting it wont happen though because if that happened it would fuck up your entire understanding of the world.
What? America isn’t to blame for all the world’s problems past, present and no doubt future?? That can’t be right. All my really well read friends ALL agree on that.
Sigh.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
You need say no more.[/quote]
I don’t know if you got the memo, but the crushing majority of the world’s population - including half of your fellow American citizens - shares my views. Do they have an anti-American bias as well? If so, where did it originate from? Is it some kind of conspiracy that tries to undermine your noble project of spreading democracy?
I’m not mocking. In fact, I’m genuinely curious about what you guys make of that. Thank you in advance for taking the time to share.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
You need say no more.
I don’t know if you got the memo, but the crushing majority of the world’s population - including half of your fellow American citizens - shares my views. Do they have an anti-American bias as well? If so, where did it originate from? Is it some kind of conspiracy that tries to undermine your noble project of spreading democracy?
I’m not mocking. In fact, I’m genuinely curious about what you guys make of that. Thank you in advance for taking the time to share.[/quote]
They don’t share your views at all.
While many do not understand why we are fighting the war the way we are does not mean they are anti-American.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Suppose you’re a dad of a son who died in conquering Japan. President Truman says to you: “We had the means to end the war but didn’t use it, because of our concern for Japanese innocents. Sorry your son is dead.”
Would you spit in his face? I would.
Would you remind me of how many of the “sons” died in Vietnam and for what reason?
The reason for bombing Japan was to set an example.
[/quote]
Vietnam happened because China had been lost (1949), North Korea (1954), and Cuba (1959). It appeared that Communism was about to gobble up the globe.
As to your last sentence: the main reason was that we’d spent $2 billion dollars (1945 dollars at that!) and America was war weary. If Truman hadn’t used the weapon and thousands of young Americans died, he’d have been put on trial for treason or assassinated. Its over, its quick, and its relatively painless for Americans. Damn fine solution!
BTW: My old man was on Okinawa, ready for the invasion of Kyushu. I’m probably alive because of the A bomb. I love the A bomb! Know Nukes!!!
[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
You need say no more.
I don’t know if you got the memo, but the crushing majority of the world’s population - including half of your fellow American citizens - shares my views. Do they have an anti-American bias as well? If so, where did it originate from? Is it some kind of conspiracy that tries to undermine your noble project of spreading democracy?
I’m not mocking. In fact, I’m genuinely curious about what you guys make of that. Thank you in advance for taking the time to share.[/quote]
Without the USA, Sweden would be under the Soviet thumb by now; or the fucking Nazis!
You think your famous neutrality would save you? From Der Fuhrer or Papa Joe? Its America that protected you and whom you now spit upon.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
It appeared that Communism was about to gobble up the globe.
[/quote]
McCarthy called and he wants his line back.
If you think that the so-called “fight against Communism”, was worth all the blood that went into it then I give up.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
You think your famous neutrality would save you? From Der Fuhrer or Papa Joe? Its America that protected you and whom you now spit upon.
[/quote]
I’m just studying in Sweden. Hopefully, one more year to go.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
You think your famous neutrality would save you? From Der Fuhrer or Papa Joe? Its America that protected you and whom you now spit upon.
I’m just studying in Sweden. Hopefully, one more year to go.[/quote]
lixy,
What is your home country?
Please don’t lie as it’s the mark of a weiner.
Thanks,
JeffR
[quote]lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
It appeared that Communism was about to gobble up the globe.
McCarthy called and he wants his line back.
If you think that the so-called “fight against Communism”, was worth all the blood that went into it then I give up.[/quote]
I don’t think much of the FREE world would have wanted us to stay within our borders and mind our own business over the last century. Your last statement was borderline nutz.
[quote]david dunne wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Oh I wish I had seen this thread earlier…
You all know I despise George II and his war, but compaing it to WWII is fucking laughable.
Japan was murdering and raping China, then turned on us and tried to wipe our fleet out…God, nothing fucking pisses me off more than people who bitch about the use of excessive force against an Imperial Japan that was part of one of the most horrific scenes in history.
I’m glad we nuked them. I’d have nuked four of their cities, just because…well, fuck’em. You want to play the game, here are the consequences.
I don’t feel bad for one motherfucker that died on the Japanese side…and it did save lives in the end.
Just when I was in danger of losing interest in the euro douche whining…this gets posted and I feel all better again.
Since this thread began with arguments about how to “morally” end a war (?)- this comment kind of brings it full circle. For me at least.
Small picture:If you start a fight with someone - there is no scripted ending. It’s a possibility that person might just keep beating your head against the pavement until they kill you. Moral of the story-dont start fights.
[/quote]
It’s funny, becasue I was going to use that exact analogy.
I agreed with the invasion of Afghanistan, and if the fighting had become serious enough to the point where many Americans were dying in vast numbers, using the big guns.
Because I disagree with the premise of the Iraq war, I would not say the same about that.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
They don’t share your views at all.[/quote]
Think again.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6286755.stm
Travel around. I’ve seen tags around Europe, Asia, Africa, Latin America that litteraly said “Fuck U.S.A.”. Heck, I’ve seen five of those in Uppsala, Sweden.
Insightful. And yet you insist on calling me anti-American for no other reason that my strong resentment towards US foreign policy.
I theorize that it is precisely because they understand why you fight that don’t like you very much.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Suppose you’re a dad of a son who died in conquering Japan. President Truman says to you: “We had the means to end the war but didn’t use it, because of our concern for Japanese innocents. Sorry your son is dead.”
Would you spit in his face? I would.
Would you remind me of how many of the “sons” died in Vietnam and for what reason?
The reason for bombing Japan was to set an example.
Vietnam happened because China had been lost (1949), North Korea (1954), and Cuba (1959). It appeared that Communism was about to gobble up the globe.
As to your last sentence: the main reason was that we’d spent $2 billion dollars (1945 dollars at that!) and America was war weary. If Truman hadn’t used the weapon and thousands of young Americans died, he’d have been put on trial for treason or assassinated. Its over, its quick, and its relatively painless for Americans. Damn fine solution!
BTW: My old man was on Okinawa, ready for the invasion of Kyushu. I’m probably alive because of the A bomb. I love the A bomb! Know Nukes!!!
[/quote]
My grandfather fought in the Pacific and got grazed in the head by a bullet as it is.
If there had been a full on invasion, he would have been there.
Hate to say it, but me living because he lived is a bit more important to me than any person on those islands living.
Sorry fellas, gotta look out for number one here.
[quote]JeffR wrote:
lixy,
What is your home country?
Please don’t lie as it’s the mark of a weiner.
[/quote]
I’m Moroccan, born in Casablanca.
[quote]lixy wrote:
The difference between you and me is that, though I might be willing to die for my cause, I could never even contemplate killing for it.[/quote]
You will always be indebted to and imprisoned by those who can and do.
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
–John Stewart Mill–
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
–George Orwell–
The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in times of great moral crisis maintain their neutrality.
–John F. Kennedy–
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
–Edmund Burke–
No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.
–Gen. George S. Patton–
You don’t need to say any more lixy, I was pretty sure from the beginning that your life was worthless. Since you’ve said you’ll die for anything and kill for nothing, I’m sure that you know it’s worthless too.
BTW- I’m not quite sure how many newspapers Patton read on any given day.