[quote]Gkhan wrote:
If more Muslims posted articles like this one maybe they would not have to debate so much.
I found this interesting:
I don’t think Wahabbis are preaching at their Mosque.
These are the people who need to spread the word.[/quote]
Awesome.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
pat wrote:
I have been staring at your avatar and I can’t for the life of me figure out what it is. It looks like a black and white anatomical close up of an asshole, but I can’t imagine that’s what it is…What the hell is it?
I’m guessing it’s the Lizard from Spiderman.[/quote]
It’s the man who has killed the most.
[quote]pat wrote:
I have been staring at your avatar and I can’t for the life of me figure out what it is. It looks like a black and white anatomical close up of an asshole, but I can’t imagine that’s what it is…What the hell is it?[/quote]
Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
[quote]pat wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I’m not interested in your personal interpretation. If you have a non-violent way of viewing Surahs 9:5 and 9:29, more power to you. I’m interested in what the ulema are saying, what the schools of jurisprudence teach, what the consensus of fiqh is on a particular topic. With jihad and sharia, I don’t like the answers. I’m interested in where the mean is sitting, not the outliers.
This is where you get yourself in trouble. The views you will hear are from the most outspoken. The most outspoken are also the ones with an agenda. The ones without an agenda don’t really care what you think, and aren’t willing to waste their time explaining themselves to you. Lucky for you, I have a lot of work I’ve been trying to avoid doing. If others were willing to waste their time, you’d find a shocking number of muslims share many of my views.
The folks who you believe to be authorities among muslims are viewed as annoying nutcases by just about everyone I know. You’ve been exposed to a bias sample, and you’ve tried to imagine a normal distribution based on it. Needless to say, the distribution you imagine is inaccurate.
Well these “annoying nutcases” are killing or advocating killing thousands of innocent people and have in fact done so. We need an annoying number of muslims droning on about denouncing acts of terror day in and day out. The perception this unsilent minority has caused is one of pervasive radical fundamentalism and extremism. Even those who say they disagree with such actions are more likely to blame the U.S. or Israel rather than take responsibility for their own actions or own up to the fact the their religion is mired in the decay of violence, hatred and murder. They may not care what we think, until a cartoon is created poking fun at them, or movie depicting what in large part is the primary western stereotype; they give a damn then. they give a huge one to the point where they are willing to kill over it.
That in a nutshell is the problem. To me it is less of a problem of what the Qur’an says and more of a problem of behaviour.[/quote]
Agree 100%. Rather than tell the nuts to STFU too many “moderate” Muslims would rather tell us that Islam is a religion of peace and let the nuts do whatever the hell they want. Their actions do not match their words.
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
No, they don’t. No one I know was outraged by the danish cartoon. No one I know is blowing anything up. The idea that it’s our responsibility to police a group of people on the other side of the world, with whom we do not share a culture or language, and who we have never met is retarded.
What’s more, when I actually take the time and effort to express how my beliefs, I get called a liar. Why on earth would I subject myself to that? To change your opinion of me? I don’t care about your opinion of me. I’d rather spend my time working, pay my taxes, and take my wife out to dinner, thanks.[/quote]
Who’s responsibility is it then, mine? You guys are muslims, if you see somebody doing wrong in the name of islam, you should do something about it. At least speak out against it.
It’s not that people are calling you a liar, it’s that every muslim who has posted agaist violence perpetrated in the name of islam, they quickly follow it with a “But if not for Israel…” or “The U.S. in Iraq…”
And if you don’t care about opinions, then why are you defending yourself so much?
[quote]pat wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
No, they don’t. No one I know was outraged by the danish cartoon. No one I know is blowing anything up. The idea that it’s our responsibility to police a group of people on the other side of the world, with whom we do not share a culture or language, and who we have never met is retarded.
What’s more, when I actually take the time and effort to express how my beliefs, I get called a liar. Why on earth would I subject myself to that? To change your opinion of me? I don’t care about your opinion of me. I’d rather spend my time working, pay my taxes, and take my wife out to dinner, thanks.
Who’s responsibility is it then, mine? You guys are muslims, if you see somebody doing wrong in the name of islam, you should do something about it. At least speak out against it.[/quote]
This may be one of the most absurd arguments I have ever heard. This, right here, is where stigmatization comes from. You are putting a ridiculous burden on people based on their membership in a non-cohesive, non-centralized group. Whose responsibility is it? If you mean to stop them, then the answer is “whoever has the chance”. If you mean “become a spokesperson for the religion”, then no one. Who am I to speak for anyone else’s beliefs? I can speak for my own, and maybe my wife’s (since we talk about it fairly often). I can even talk about what some of my friends have said. But I can’t speak on behalf of everyone, and they can’t speak on my behalf. Is this really so hard to understand?
Moreover, I don’t even consider them muslim. I think they’re heretics hijacking the religion for political gain (or, more commonly, following someone who has hijacked the religion for political gain). I don’t speak for them, and they don’t speak for me. I don’t see what part of this is complicated. I don’t feel compelled to speak out when a chritian does something retarded in the name of his/her religion, either (e.g., Pat Robinson, the klan, the papal prohibition on contraceptives). Why? Because anyone that isn’t an idiot should be able to see through his BS.
But that’s just my view. The person next to me might disagree, and that’s their right.
[quote]
It’s not that people are calling you a liar, it’s that every muslim who has posted agaist violence perpetrated in the name of islam, they quickly follow it with a “But if not for Israel…” or “The U.S. in Iraq…”
And if you don’t care about opinions, then why are you defending yourself so much?[/quote]
Read the recent threads involving Islam. I have been called a liar several times. Apparently, I am misrepresenting my views as part of a conspiracy. An EVIL conspiracy. On T-Nation.
So pat robertson has called for open-ended warfare against unbelievers? How many people are in the Klan? Where does Jesus support the terrorism of other people like the Klan does? How is a papal prohibition of contraceptives on the same level of Mohammed’s command to “fight the unbelievers” in Surah 9? As far as hijacking religion for political purposes is concerned, your own prophet did that. He established an earthly kingdom, complete with an army and a law known as shari’ah. Don’t tell us that Islam is unassociated with politics. It is political by nature.
Well, you’ve never come clean on your actual position - Muslim or no. And Muslims have a doctrine called “taqiyya” that allows them to misrepresent themselves to unbelievers, just as Mohammed did when he was militarily weak - “War is deceit” and all that.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.268
[quote]pat wrote:
Who’s responsibility is it then, mine? [/quote]
Among others, yes!
This is stupid. If I see somebody doing something wrong - be it in the name of Islam, Jehovah, money or patriotism - I do something about it. And so should you.
Again, the OP’s premise was totally different.
Huh? Last I checked, he was called a liar (I won’t even go into the number of times that accusation was thrown at me).
Of course! If you post about Palestinians sending rockets across the border and blame it on Islam, I will bring up the artificial state that was put there six decades ago. And if you amalgamate the Iraqi resistance with Al-Qaeda under the umbrella term of “insurgents”, then I will lash out at the unprovoked act of aggression by the US along with the presence of your bloody troops for 5 years on their soil.
You should learn to distinguish between defending one’s self against slander and attempting to change other people’s opinions.
You have a very narrow mind and a very large brush. I have to wonder to what extent Fox is responsible for this. But then again, some people would cling their beliefs even as logic bites them on the ass.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
So pat robertson has called for open-ended warfare against unbelievers? How many people are in the Klan? Where does Jesus support the terrorism of other people like the Klan does? How is a papal prohibition of contraceptives on the same level of Mohammed’s command to “fight the unbelievers” in Surah 9? [/quote]
In analogy is when two things share a commonality, but are otherwise different. If everything were the same, it would be a homology, no wouldn’t it?
Pat Robestson has said that US soldiers deserve death because of America’s failure to adhere to what he considers biblical law. I can’t tell you much about the klan’s ideology (they never let me in the meetings), but they seem to rationalize it somehow. The ban on contraceptives has fueled the spread of HIV, and resulted in countless deaths and economic turmoil.
[quote]
As far as hijacking religion for political purposes is concerned, your own prophet did that. He established an earthly kingdom, complete with an army and a law known as shari’ah. Don’t tell us that Islam is unassociated with politics. It is political by nature.[/quote]
The catholic church had its own army for very a long time. Many other Judeo-Christian prophets were also political leaders. Bush got into office by courting the evangelicals. What’s your point?
[quote]
Well, you’ve never come clean on your actual position - Muslim or no. And Muslims have a doctrine called “taqiyya” that allows them to misrepresent themselves to unbelievers, just as Mohammed did when he was militarily weak - “War is deceit” and all that. [/quote]
lol, “come clean”. I get the feeling that you feel like a detective trying to extract a confession. But it’s interesting that you continue to reference the hadith, knowing that I have absolutely no interest in what Johnny said that Bill said that Ted heard the prophet did.
But it raises an interesting question. Why are you talking to me. If you believe that anything I say that doesn’t match your preconceived idea of what I should say is a lie, what’s the point?
Maybe even more interesting, how do you perceive your role? What benefit would there for me if I misinformed you? You aren’t a “superior enemy” that I have to deceive in order to defeat. You aren’t a decision maker in government or the military, and we aren’t even at war. You’re just an unhappy guy being obnoxious on the internet. I seriously think you should give this some thought. If you ever manage to get over your delusions of grandeur, let me know. I’ll send you flowers.
The point is that Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, didn’t have an army and didn’t have an earthly kingdom. Your prophet did. So when Christians try to establish some sort of earthly Christian kingdom, they’re doing the opposite of what their prophet did. They’re going against the commands of their Scripture. Muslims are not. Even the papacy wasn’t around in early Christianity. It was established about the time of Augustine, and the Reformers broke from it ca 1500 referring to the doctrines of the original church fathers.
Your religion has made military conquests from the get-go. The religious texts of Islam and the life of Mohammed support such things. The text of Christianity does not.
[quote]lol, “come clean”. I get the feeling that you feel like a detective trying to extract a confession. But it’s interesting that you continue to reference the hadith, knowing that I have absolutely no interest in what Johnny said that Bill said that Ted heard the prophet did.
But it raises an interesting question. Why are you talking to me. If you believe that anything I say that doesn’t match your preconceived idea of what I should say is a lie, what’s the point?[/quote]
Because you try to pass your views off as mainstream Islam, and they aren’t. There are schools of jurisprudence also that inform Muslim opinion, and you pretend that they don’t, as if you’re all just out there reading the Qur’an alone and interpreting it for yourselves.
BTW, the Qur’an isn’t even intelligible without information from the Hadith and Sira, so don’t pretend that it doesn’t matter.
You really have nothing but ad hominem, do you? Typical Muslim. They can’t even debate.
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
pat wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
No, they don’t. No one I know was outraged by the danish cartoon. No one I know is blowing anything up. The idea that it’s our responsibility to police a group of people on the other side of the world, with whom we do not share a culture or language, and who we have never met is retarded.
What’s more, when I actually take the time and effort to express how my beliefs, I get called a liar. Why on earth would I subject myself to that? To change your opinion of me? I don’t care about your opinion of me. I’d rather spend my time working, pay my taxes, and take my wife out to dinner, thanks.
Who’s responsibility is it then, mine? You guys are muslims, if you see somebody doing wrong in the name of islam, you should do something about it. At least speak out against it.
This may be one of the most absurd arguments I have ever heard. This, right here, is where stigmatization comes from. You are putting a ridiculous burden on people based on their membership in a non-cohesive, non-centralized group. Whose responsibility is it? If you mean to stop them, then the answer is “whoever has the chance”. If you mean “become a spokesperson for the religion”, then no one. Who am I to speak for anyone else’s beliefs? I can speak for my own, and maybe my wife’s (since we talk about it fairly often). I can even talk about what some of my friends have said. But I can’t speak on behalf of everyone, and they can’t speak on my behalf. Is this really so hard to understand?
Moreover, I don’t even consider them muslim. I think they’re heretics hijacking the religion for political gain (or, more commonly, following someone who has hijacked the religion for political gain). I don’t speak for them, and they don’t speak for me. I don’t see what part of this is complicated. I don’t feel compelled to speak out when a chritian does something retarded in the name of his/her religion, either (e.g., Pat Robinson, the klan, the papal prohibition on contraceptives). Why? Because anyone that isn’t an idiot should be able to see through his BS.
[/quote]
Well, they claim to speak for you…Perhaps you should denounce it. Like it or not you are linked. Turning you back on it and pretending it does not exist will only make the problem worse.
That being said, you can, of course do or not do whatever you like. Ignore it, it may go away.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
The point is that Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, didn’t have an army and didn’t have an earthly kingdom. Your prophet did. So when Christians try to establish some sort of earthly Christian kingdom, they’re doing the opposite of what their prophet did. They’re going against the commands of their Scripture. Muslims are not. Even the papacy wasn’t around in early Christianity. It was established about the time of Augustine, and the Reformers broke from it ca 1500 referring to the doctrines of the original church fathers.
Your religion has made military conquests from the get-go. The religious texts of Islam and the life of Mohammed support such things. The text of Christianity does not. [/quote]
Jesus was not the first or only prophet in the Christian faith. Can you think of any prophets who had armies and engaged in military conquests? Do you not recognize these as prophets? If you don’t, how do you reconsile that Hesus did?
[quote]
Because you try to pass your views off as mainstream Islam, and they aren’t. There are schools of jurisprudence also that inform Muslim opinion, and you pretend that they don’t, as if you’re all just out there reading the Qur’an alone and interpreting it for yourselves. [/quote]
I never said that “we all” are doing anything, because “we all” are not a cohesive group. I’ve made it clear that I’m not willing or able to speak for anyone else, and that no one else has the right to speak for me.
yeah, context is interesting. That’s where it stops. I really don’t care if the prophet liked holding his dick with his left or right hand when he pissed, and I’m certainly not going to try to imitate it.
[quote]
You really have nothing but ad hominem, do you? Typical Muslim. They can’t even debate. [/quote]
So I am a muslim. Thanks for finally clearing that up. Also, you might not have noticed, but what you just said is ad hominem. That makes you either a hypocrite or an idiot.
[quote]pat wrote:
Well, they claim to speak for you…Perhaps you should denounce it. Like it or not you are linked. Turning you back on it and pretending it does not exist will only make the problem worse.
That being said, you can, of course do or not do whatever you like. Ignore it, it may go away.[/quote]
I just said they don’t speak for me. Consider them officially denounced.
[quote]lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
Who’s responsibility is it then, mine?
Among others, yes!
[/quote]
I bitch about it every chance I get.
My ass. The only thing you do is condone it and blame others for problems that are your own.
I am down with OPP, yeah, you know me…
Of course, right before a Palistinian kills a Jew they always shout “Allah Akbah!” They claim to do it as their islamic duty, so forgive me when I get confused about there intentions.
\It’s about time you get over Israel, you are not going to destroy it, your faggy little “resistance fighters” aka, terrorists are never going to get rid of it. It is Israeli property that belongs to the Israelis and there is not a damn, fucking thing you are any extremist kook is going to do about it except die for no reason. Israel is a legit state, they have every right to be exactly where they are and if you don’t like it, suck a sweaty Jewish cock.
[quote]
And if you don’t care about opinions, then why are you defending yourself so much?
You should learn to distinguish between defending one’s self against slander and attempting to change other people’s opinions.
You have a very narrow mind and a very large brush. I have to wonder to what extent Fox is responsible for this. But then again, some people would cling their beliefs even as logic bites them on the ass.[/quote]
To have you lecture on the ways of logic is laughable as you have no sense for it what so ever.
I never watch news on TV, so you could compare my opinions with fox’s if you’d like; they may or may not match. If your that board go ahead, I’d think masturbation would be more productive.
You certainly seem to be. But you’ve waffled back and forth. It certainly speaks to your level of honesty, just like the way you claim there is no central authority in Islam. You guys just ignore all of your jurists, huh?
[quote]Jesus was not the first or only prophet in the Christian faith. Can you think of any prophets who had armies and engaged in military conquests? Do you not recognize these as prophets? If you don’t, how do you reconsile that Hesus did?
[/quote]
I actually started a thread on this. Why don’t you look back through and see if you can find it. We believe Jesus fulfilled the purpose of OT Israel, and that Israel itself had a typological purpose.
I’d rather be both than a liar.
[quote]pat wrote:
Of course, right before a Palistinian kills a Jew they always shout “Allah Akbah!” They claim to do it as their islamic duty, so forgive me when I get confused about there intentions.[/quote]
pat,
Muslims tend to say that quite a lot. If militants say it when they’re killing people, millions more say it when someone gets over an illness, when a baby is born or even when their favorite football team scores the winning goal…
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
So I am a muslim. Thanks for finally clearing that up. Also, you might not have noticed, but what you just said is ad hominem…[/quote]
Alek,
You’ve got to realise mate - calling a muslim evil or a liar isn’t an ad hominem attack. In fact, to be more precise, muslims can only be evil or liars. Or maybe both - evil liars.
It’s like star wars. The goodies are self-consciously aware of being good and the baddies are self-consciously aware of being evil. And if they’re not, they’re only playing jedi mind games on you.
Or should that be sith lord tricks…
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
pat wrote:
I have been staring at your avatar and I can’t for the life of me figure out what it is. It looks like a black and white anatomical close up of an asshole, but I can’t imagine that’s what it is…What the hell is it?
I’m guessing it’s the Lizard from Spiderman.
It’s the man who has killed the most.[/quote]
The man who has killed the most from what?
edit-never mind…saw the link.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
pat wrote:
I have been staring at your avatar and I can’t for the life of me figure out what it is. It looks like a black and white anatomical close up of an asshole, but I can’t imagine that’s what it is…What the hell is it?
I’m guessing it’s the Lizard from Spiderman.
It’s the man who has killed the most.
The man who has killed the most from what? [/quote]
It is Zaraki Kenpachi, like someone said.
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
It is Zaraki Kenpachi, like someone said.[/quote]
Yay for me!