Alternative to Intelligent Design

[Miserere]

[quote]Garrett W. wrote:
Stop saying that people came from apes who came from dinosaurs who crawled out of the ocean automatically invalidates the fact the is a God. [/quote]

I don’t think this (as you’ve phrased it) has ever been taught in schools. There are many evolutionists who don’t use Evolutionary Theory as proof of God’s inexistence, they use it as an explanation of how Man came to be, evolving from other creatures. The Catholic faith accepts Evolution, and they’re most certainly not arguing God doesn’t exist.

And by the way, apes didn’t come from dinosaurs, birds did. Apes came from tiny mammals that lived alongside dinosaurs; when these became extinct, mammals flourished, grew in size, and became widespread and diverse.

[pookie]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I was waiting on you to slip up and post the actual scripture. This is the King James Version:[/quote]

Slip up? We can play “pick your version” all day long. Who says’s your KJV is any better than my NLT?

[quote]Luke chapter 6:27-30

"27 ?But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back.

It isn’t saying give everything you own away to anyone who asks and I amazed that you took it that way.[/quote]

It still says to give to those who ask. I asked. Where’s the check? I don’t see any small type at the bottom of the pages in any version… does yours have some exception we’re not privy too?

My point is that all the offended Christians popping up on this thread to denounce the FSM and other parodies should put half the effort in actually living the message of the New Testament. But that’s hard. Much easier to whine on the internet about the bad atheists poking fun at their beliefs.

In your case, it’s always the same old tired argument that “some very smart people believe in God, so there.” Well, some very smart people also don’t believe in God. So we’ve settled nothing that way. Got anything better?

Don’t spread bullshit simply because you misunderstand the scripture. You are the type who look for what you want to see in the Bible and then try to use it against those who really do believe in God.

And you’re the type who’ll play semantics and word games to make sure the message is not too inconvenient for you. I expected as much. Luckily, there are enough version of the Bible going around that by shopping around a bit, you’ll eventually find one that allows you do what you want. And if not, well let’s “interpret” the words. From “give to those who ask” to “it means to set a good example.” The words are very simple, and they say “give to those who ask”, nothing else.

The real message there is to be an example. To give when asked of you, however, no man is expected to give until they can’t survive themselves.

I didn’t ask that. Just send whatever you can afford. I did mention selling your luxuries, which, by definition, are not basic requirements for life. No one needs a large TV and a PS2 to survive. Ship them over. Get me an XBox too, while you’re at it.

[vroom]

I didn’t ask that. Just send whatever you can afford. I did mention selling your luxuries, which, by definition, are not basic requirements for life. No one needs a large TV and a PS2 to survive. Ship them over. Get me an XBox too, while you’re at it.

Actually Pookie, I think they should be gung ho to give up such devils implements…

[Professor_X]

[quote]pookie wrote:
It still says to give to those who ask. I asked. Where’s the check? I don’t see any small type at the bottom of the pages in any version… does yours have some exception we’re not privy too?

My point is that all the offended Christians popping up on this thread to denounce the FSM and other parodies should put half the effort in actually living the message of the New Testament. But that’s hard. Much easier to whine on the internet about the bad atheists poking fun at their beliefs.

In your case, it’s always the same old tired argument that “some very smart people believe in God, so there.” Well, some very smart people also don’t believe in God. So we’ve settled nothing that way. Got anything better?[/quote]

As in our last discussion, I will ask the same question…are you asking these questions to learn or to play games? That scripture isn’t about giving everything you have away to people who don’t need it simply because they said the words. It is about helping those in need. It says turn the other cheek, but you only have ONE other cheek. That also implies being humble but not letting others walk all over you.

That is why I posted the verses surrounding the one you chose. You have taken something clearly meant to teach how to help others and attempted to twist it into “give everything you have away to anyone who asks”.

again:

27 ?But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back.

This does not say give your belongings away to anyone who asks. It says give to those who ask.

Let’s look at The English Standard version:

[quote]Luke 6:30 (English Standard Version)

30Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. [/quote]

Let’s look at the Contemporary English version:

30Give to everyone who asks and don’t ask people to return what they have taken from you.

Let’s look at the 21st Century King James version:

30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not back.

Let’s look at the American Standard version:

30 Give to every one that asketh thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Let’s look at The Young’s Literal Translation:

30`And to every one who is asking of thee, be giving; and from him who is taking away thy goods, be not asking again;

Let’s look at the Wycliffe New Testament:

30 And give to each that asketh thee, and if a man taketh away those things that be thine [and he that taketh away those things that be thine], ask thou not again.

Hmm, how many different translations was that? I don’t know about you, but if SEVERAL versions all say the same thing and you found ONE translation that fit what you wanted it to mean just so you could degrade what many believe in and bastardize the teachings of it, I know which one I am going to believe.

None of this is about being a dumbass and giving everything you own away simply because someone asks. It is about helping those in need and isn’t even referring specifically to possessions.

Grow up.

[Miserere]

Pookie, Prof X, how do any of you know which is the better translation of the original Luke 6:30 (written in ancient Greek I believe)?

American Standard Version:
Give to every one that asketh thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

King James Version:
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

New King James Version:
Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back.

World English Bible:
Give to everyone who asks you, and don’t ask him who takes away your goods to give them back again.

Perseus NT:
Give to everyone who asks you, and don’t ask him who takes away your goods to give them back again.

New Living Translation:
Give what you have to anyone who asks you for it; and when things are taken away from you, don’t try to get them back.

New American Standard Bible:
Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back.

Webster’s Bible:
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask [them] not again.

Young’ s Literal Translation:
And to every one who is asking of thee, be giving; and from him who is taking away thy goods, be not asking again

Hebrew Names Version:
Give to everyone who asks you, and don’t ask him who takes away your goods to give them back again.

Revised Standard Version:
Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again.

I find the message clear in any translation: if I ask a Christian, they should give. If Pookie asks Christians for money, they should ask him for his PayPal account.

Of course, if I were a wealthy Christian, I would interpret these words differently, just in case Pookie knocked on my front door…

[IagoMB]

[quote]Garrett W. wrote:
But who was the fuck-fuck that thought this explained how the planets were created and the orginal little bits of atoms were placed everywhere?[/quote]

No one. I think you’re lumping a few different branches of science here.

[quote]Garrett W. wrote:
Creationism shouldn’t be taught in schools and neither should this bastardization of actual evolution. Show genetic evolution through thousands of generations of fruit flies. Stop saying that people came from apes who came from dinosaurs who crawled out of the ocean automatically invalidates the fact the is a God. [/quote]

That’s not evolution either. That’s a misunderstanding of the theory. People did not come from apes, which came from another species and so on. In fact, the theory points out that if that was the case, it would be greater evidence for an ID.

[CaptainLogic]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
The real message there is to be an example. To give when asked of you, however, no man is expected to give until they can’t survive themselves.[/quote]

So when it says ‘give when asked of you’ it’s really saying set a good example?

And who was asking to give until you couldn’t survive? Sorry Prof, but that rebuttal was depressingly bad.

[Professor_X]

[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
Professor X wrote:
The real message there is to be an example. To give when asked of you, however, no man is expected to give until they can’t survive themselves.

So when it says ‘give when asked of you’ it’s really saying set a good example?

And who was asking to give until you couldn’t survive? Sorry Prof, but that rebuttal was depressingly bad.[/quote]

Didn’t I even write “to give when asked of you” in the part that you quoted from me? The difference is, it isn’t speaking simply of material objects. It means help when asked. What do you see in that? You honestly think it means, “Oh well, Joey asked for my car so I guess I have to give it away”? Don’t be a dumbass and don’t think that anyone else is either. Some of the richest people even discussed in the Bible were also considered to be holy in the eyes of God. Read up on Job and get back to me.

You want to take it in pieces when most are taking as a whole. If one scrupture details how God has blessed one person with material items, why would you assume that he back tracked and now wants all Christians to be completely poor?

[Professor_X]

In fact, if any of you want to understand, just ask. If you want to put down what is being explained to you, find another hobby. I think I have explained this well enough. God is not against material possessions as evidenced by several other scriptures. Jesus also wasn’t stupid and doesn’t expect us to be either. If you think anywhere in the Bible that it means give away everything for no reason simply because everyone who doesn’t even need it asks for it, then you can play that game. It is your prerogotive. Enjoy life.

[CaptainLogic]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

You want to take it in pieces when most are taking as a whole. If one scrupture details how God has blessed one person with material items, why would you assume that he back tracked and now wants all Christians to be completely poor?[/quote]

Um, in every one of those versions you quoted it basically says ‘give to everyone who asks of you and don’t ask for your stuff back if they just take it’. From this you’re supposed to infer that only means when people in need ask for things?

And the part about not trying to get back possessions that are taken from you, seems a bit…well…it seems like pretty bad advice. Especially if you needed those things to survive. Please decode the hidden meaning for me.

[graphicsMan]

[quote]Garrett W. wrote:
Evolution is scientific fact and occurs everyday around us. Slowly plants, animals and humans change into other things. There is divergent evolution and convergent evolution. Why are people taller than they were hundreds of years ago, why aren’t the any black-furred bunnies in the artic, why do whales have fins like fish? All evolution.
[/quote]

Evolution is NOT fact, it is a theory. A damned fine one if you ask me, but a theory nonetheless. Moreover it says nothing of a god existing or not. What it implies is that if a god exists, he either had nothing to do with how we came to be, or he directed us to evolve.

As a side note, I know plenty of people who believe in evolution, who also believe in a god.

[Professor_X]

[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
Professor X wrote:

You want to take it in pieces when most are taking as a whole. If one scrupture details how God has blessed one person with material items, why would you assume that he back tracked and now wants all Christians to be completely poor?

Um, in every one of those versions you quoted it basically says ‘give to everyone who asks of you and don’t ask for your stuff back if they just take it’. From this you’re supposed to infer that only means when people in need ask for things?

And the part about not trying to get back possessions that are taken from you, seems a bit…well…it seems like pretty bad advice. Especially if you needed those things to survive. Please decode the hidden meaning for me.[/quote]

There is no hidden meaning. Nowhere in the Bible does it say “be poor and don’t hold onto any material possessions”. That is not what that lesson was about. Go read the whole chapter. Again, quit taking the bible in parts just so you can dissect what one or two words mean, especially since we just saw how the translation is slightly different in many different versions.

For instance, there are words we use in English that there are no words for in Spanish. What you are doing is equivilant to dissecting a Spanish translation of a word that doesn’t exist in that language while ignoring the overall meaning of the text. Why would you even do that but to degrade it?

Quit playing games. It has been explained to you. If you don’t want to accept that, fine. But quit acting as if no one ever tried. That scripture is not talking about giving away everything you own to people who don’t even need it. It is based on being humble and giving, not being stupid. Go play games elsewhere.

[Soco]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Whatever makes you happy, but what is really the point of this besides degrading what a large percentage of the world believes?[/quote]

I really don’t think the point is to degrade believers in God, I think it is to mock the logic of teaching something that can’t be tested in a science class.

Intelligent design cannot be tested scientifically. Therefore if you want to teach it in schools, you need to teach every alternative view of creation given your criteria. FSM just happens to be funny.

[MikeTheBear]

[quote]gojira wrote:
Vegita wrote:

Why do people need to have people outside of thier religion hear thier teachings? Clearly it is aimed at being a recruitment tool. Otherwise they would be happy with teaching it to thier own members in thier normal setting. If people were truly concerned about thier children not being taught about creation then they should bring it up with thier pastors and sunday school or religion teachers.

Ahhh, you’re soooo close. Actually, the point is to teach it to the young, impressionable minds in school. Indoctrinate the young; it worked for the Hitler youth. Their minds are much more flexible because they don’t have the life experiences yet to know bullshit when it’s being fed to them. This is why the religous right keeps hammering on trying to get into public schools, whether it is through ID or through prayer in school. Get 'em while they’re young.
Teach science (evolution) in schools.
Teach religion (ID, creationism) in church or Sunday school. If you don’t like it, send your child to a private school or home school them.[/quote]

While I wouldn’t compare the religious right to Hitler just yet, there are valid points here. If I believed in creationism, which I don’t I would make an effort to teach creationism to my kids at home or I would volunteer to teach Sunday school. I wouldn’t object to evolution being taught in schools. Why? Because at some point, kids will need to go out in the real world, on their own, and be exposed to differing ideas. I would let them learn about evolution, then explain to them why it is wrong and use it as a way of helping them deal with ideas that contradict their faith. Why is this such a difficult concept for the religious right to understand?

[CaptainLogic]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Quit playing games. It has been explained to you. If you don’t want to accept that, fine. But quit acting as if no one ever tried. That scripture is not talking about giving away everything you own to people who don’t even need it. It is based on being humble and giving, not being stupid. Go play games elsewhere. [/quote]

What? I wasn’t playing games…just wondering why any intelligent person would choose to have ‘faith’ as opposed to just living out a regular existence. Could you tell me that?

You didn’t really address my last point either, but that’s ok.

[Professor_X]

[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Quit playing games. It has been explained to you. If you don’t want to accept that, fine. But quit acting as if no one ever tried. That scripture is not talking about giving away everything you own to people who don’t even need it. It is based on being humble and giving, not being stupid. Go play games elsewhere.

What? I wasn’t playing games…just wondering why any intelligent person would choose to have ‘faith’ as opposed to just living out a regular existence. Could you tell me that?

[/quote]

Because in all that I have seen, this existance seems to be everything but “regular”…or even happenstance for that matter.

[Christomopher]

[quote] Some of the richest people even discussed in the Bible were also considered to be holy in the eyes of God. Read up on Job and get back to me.
[/quote]
The story of Job is my favorite from the bible. God does horrible things to his loyal follower Job to win a bet with the devil. Nice guy. Never fails to crack me up. Second place in horrible stories from the bible would be the story from 2nd Kings where a prophet gets made fun of by some children for being bald and so he calls down bears to kill 42 of the kids in the name of the lord.

[pookie]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Hmm, how many different translations was that? I don’t know about you, but if SEVERAL versions all say the same thing and you found ONE translation that fit what you wanted it to mean just so you could degrade what many believe in and bastardize the teachings of it, I know which one I am going to believe.[/quote]

You think I picked and choosed the version? I put “luke 6:30” in Google, hit search and clicked the first link that came up. Cut-n-pasted it in my message and went on.

You can read the other versions any way you want; but they still all say to give freely to those who ask of you. I’m sorry you find your own beliefs so inconvenient.

[IagoMB]

[quote]graphicsMan wrote:

Evolution is NOT fact, it is a theory. A damned fine one if you ask me, but a theory nonetheless.
[/quote]

A scientific theory carries a great deal of weight. Here’s something from the sceptic’s deictionary:

A scientific theory is a unified set of principles, knowledge, and methods for explaining the behavior of some specified range of empirical phenomena. Scientific theories attempt to understand the world of observation and sense experience. They attempt to explain how the natural world works.

A scientific theory must have some logical consequences we can test against empirical facts by making predictions based on the theory. The exact nature of the relationship of a scientific theory making predictions and being tested is something about which philosophers widely disagree, however (Kourany 1997).

It is true that some scientific theories, when they are first developed and proposed, are often little more than guesses based on limited information. On the other hand, mature and well-developed scientific theories systematically organize knowledge and allow us to explain and predict wide ranges of empirical events. In either case, however, one characteristic must be present for the theory to be scientific. The distinguishing feature of scientific theories is that they are “capable of being tested by experience”

[pookie]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
God is not against material possessions as evidenced by several other scriptures. Jesus also wasn’t stupid and doesn’t expect us to be either. If you think anywhere in the Bible that it means give away everything for no reason.[/quote]

No? Matthew 19, KJV:

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

I’d like you to explain that one to me. No matter how I read it (and this time I checked a few other versions) I can’t fathom how you get a Jesus who’s ok with an abundance of material possessions; but then again, I don’t go around calling myself “Professor” either, so what do I know.