Alpha vs. Beta Male

[quote]Leeuwer wrote:
Synthesize wrote:

This is to say, a much wider range of abilities are required for leadership, and the very fact that these purported “beta males” can at all attain a leadership position disproves the notion of “Alpha Male” among human beings.

Institutional leadership does not equal instinctional leadership.
Did you follow your dad when you were a child because he owned your property ? Of course not, you didn’t even know what the meaning of property was when you were 4 !
You followed him because instinctually, you knew he had more power than you.

Synthesize wrote:

Unfortunately, the critical point that you neglect to mention is precisely that these are transient organizations and that in long term situations, a number of other qualities besides sheer “aggressiveness” or “assertiveness” are required to maintain a position of power. And this proves my point: power is acquired by human beings by a number of other means.

Of course it is.
If you are between a group of friends, visiting France, and you happen to know a lot about the country and decide to take the lead, and your friends unconsciously agree that you are in this particular situation superior to them, you are now the Alpha Male.

I understand what you are saying though.
Baboons have very uncomplicated life structures.
The strongest or wittiest will usually be the Alpha Male.
However, because of civilisation and institutions, we’ve come to ignore our instincts to instead rely on things like proper manners, and cultural behaviour.

This makes being a true Alpha Male much more complicated or demanding.
However, they do exist. They are rare, but you will find males, if you look hard enough, that everyone will follow regardless of what they tell, and that nearly every(single, because marriage is one of those limiting institutions) woman will want to be with.

[/quote]

Human civilization did not “crush” the instincts of human beings. It was, in fact, the evolution of human plasticity – the capacity of human beings to use cognition to “override” instinct and therefore adapt to multifarious environmental/social conditions – that overrode “instinct.” Civilization followed, though I will admit that civilization has to some extent suppressed some kinds of behaviors that would have otherwise flourished in less developed hunter-gatherer societies.

However, the point is that “instinct” in the sense that we understand it (though we are getting into some difficult philosophical territory) was, by virtue of evolution, suppressed in favor of cognition (hence the wrinkled cerebral cortex of ours).

I think it is a grave error to speak of the “untamed, precivilized” man, as if he is altogether separate from the institutions that he created. It is true that evolution occurred predominantly in man’s days in the Pleistocene. Our behaviors today are remnants of this.

However, two important points must be made: First, evolution, given we have a correct understanding of it (which is itself an assumption too often ignored), has occurred since our days as “noble savages,” and so we have been somewhat molded in parallel with the ascending civilization that we see today. And second, civilization, this “suppressing of instinct” would have only been possible if mankind innately had the ability to suppress instinct. That is to say, the “suppression of instinct” is innately a part of the repertoire that evolution has imbued to us, and as such, human beings must be viewed not in the light of “beings suppressing instinct” but in the light that this “suppression of instinct” is an essential aspect of our humanity. So, to be true, we cannot really refer to it as a “suppression of instinct” since in fact it is a part of our innate character.

[quote]Synthesize wrote:
Leeuwer wrote:
Synthesize wrote:

This is to say, a much wider range of abilities are required for leadership, and the very fact that these purported “beta males” can at all attain a leadership position disproves the notion of “Alpha Male” among human beings.

Institutional leadership does not equal instinctional leadership.
Did you follow your dad when you were a child because he owned your property ? Of course not, you didn’t even know what the meaning of property was when you were 4 !
You followed him because instinctually, you knew he had more power than you.

Synthesize wrote:

Unfortunately, the critical point that you neglect to mention is precisely that these are transient organizations and that in long term situations, a number of other qualities besides sheer “aggressiveness” or “assertiveness” are required to maintain a position of power. And this proves my point: power is acquired by human beings by a number of other means.

Of course it is.
If you are between a group of friends, visiting France, and you happen to know a lot about the country and decide to take the lead, and your friends unconsciously agree that you are in this particular situation superior to them, you are now the Alpha Male.

I understand what you are saying though.
Baboons have very uncomplicated life structures.
The strongest or wittiest will usually be the Alpha Male.
However, because of civilisation and institutions, we’ve come to ignore our instincts to instead rely on things like proper manners, and cultural behaviour.

This makes being a true Alpha Male much more complicated or demanding.
However, they do exist. They are rare, but you will find males, if you look hard enough, that everyone will follow regardless of what they tell, and that nearly every(single, because marriage is one of those limiting institutions) woman will want to be with.

Human civilization did not “crush” the instincts of human beings. It was, in fact, the evolution of human plasticity – the capacity of human beings to use cognition to “override” instinct and therefore adapt to multifarious environmental/social conditions – that overrode “instinct.” Civilization followed, though I will admit that civilization has to some extent suppressed some kinds of behaviors that would have otherwise flourished in less developed hunter-gatherer societies.

However, the point is that “instinct” in the sense that we understand it (though we are getting into some difficult philosophical territory) was, by virtue of evolution, suppressed in favor of cognition (hence the wrinkled cerebral cortex of ours).

I think it is a grave error to speak of the “untamed, precivilized” man, as if he is altogether separate from the institutions that he created. It is true that evolution occurred predominantly in man’s days in the Pleistocene. Our behaviors today are remnants of this.

However, two important points must be made: First, evolution, given we have a correct understanding of it (which is itself an assumption too often ignored), has occurred since our days as “noble savages,” and so we have been somewhat molded in parallel with the ascending civilization that we see today. And second, civilization, this “suppressing of instinct” would have only been possible if mankind innately had the ability to suppress instinct. That is to say, the “suppression of instinct” is innately a part of the repertoire that evolution has imbued to us, and as such, human beings must be viewed not in the light of “beings suppressing instinct” but in the light that this “suppression of instinct” is an essential aspect of our humanity. So, to be true, we cannot really refer to it as a “suppression of instinct” since in fact it is a part of our innate character.[/quote]

I disagree with allmost all of your premises.

And this is my intellectual backyard/playground. By “this” I mean interaction between culture and genome.

I am looking forward to disagree with you in detail, once I am sober enough to do so.

I’ve got a couple of ganders fighting over this right now. Ambo, my big African gander has held the Alpha slot for the last three years, but now that they are getting older, Eldo, my Buff gander is challenging him. This spring (breeding season) ought to be very interesting.

I don’t see this behavior as much in the ducks, but there is a definite pecking order. The geese have a more complex social structure than the ducks, and are much more intelligent.

Oh, for those of you who are having problems following this; I have waterfowl for pets.

[quote]orion wrote:
Synthesize,

I don?t get the problem.

Social dominance is social dominance by whatever means it is achieved and those dominant individuals are not very likely to have climbed the social ladder by accident.

Those individuals have the same privileges that can be observed everywhere in the animal kingdom (control over resources, easier access to more attractive mates).

So why not call those individuals Alpha Males/ Females if it is the same phenomenon like in thousands of other social species and thereby acknowledging that we our social life is basically like theirs?
[/quote]

In human beings,

  1. Leadership is determined by other mechanisms than is by most other primates and in many cases, climbing up the leadership ladder can be achieved by snivelling as well as any other means. This doesn’t preclude comparisons to say chimpanzees (somebody brought up the issue of alliances, which occur in many primates), but it helps to show that the ascent to power is not always characterized by these ideals of baboon-like alpha maleness that many are exhorting here. You have to lie, cheat, and steal to become powerful.

  2. It is a functional niche rather than one firmly associated with reproductive advantage and while I will not argue that leaders are generally reproductively advantaged, does not play anywhere near a comparable role in reproduction as alpha males do in primate societies.

In human societies, followers are ESSENTIAL to the function of a group as much as leaders are. Followers can provide other kinds of group advantage unrelated to leadership, and this is why they mate. In baboon societies, the societies are cutthroat. In human hunter-gatherer societies, egalitarianism reigned and anyone who brought something to the group, often far unrelated to “social dominance,” would have potential mating opportunities at his disposal.

The perpetuation of most of the members of society, with their distinct abilities, was then necessary for the perpetuation of the group. If the leaders boinked and impregnated all the females, the society would not have functioned as well.

I would say one of the most characteristic aspects of this “rank view” of males is that high ranking males mate a lot more than low ranking ones. While there is some correlation in human societies of this, human societies show this trend to a MUCH more marginalized extent. This is why women marry weak nerds (though you may rebut and say this is why they cheat on them, as well…)

[quote]Synthesize wrote:

That is to say, the “suppression of instinct” is innately a part of the repertoire that evolution has imbued to us, and as such, human beings must be viewed not in the light of “beings suppressing instinct” but in the light that this “suppression of instinct” is an essential aspect of our humanity. So, to be true, we cannot really refer to it as a “suppression of instinct” since in fact it is a part of our innate character.[/quote]

There is no proof that it is an innate part of our human character.
This “suppresion of instinct” is a result of the hierarchy in humans that rose because of “evolution”.
When humans are following those higher than them, the leader automatically sets institutions for the others to follow.

Dogs will mark their territory. The others of the pack will recognise him as being the leader of the pack, and therefore retreat from his place.
They also claim certain females, and these females will stay loyal to that one dog. These are institutions, that instinctually are brought to animals.

Through some “jump” in evolution, man developed speech, through which he could transfer his own findings(fire, hunting tools)much quicker to the others, as well as convey his institutions better.(“the axe is mine, the spear is yours”)

This caused a rise in complexity, through which hierarchal status was achieved simultaniously.

Through this, higher leaders(or leading groups), would increase their institutions, creating tighter rules for those lower to follow.
Ultimately, this created society.

I used to work with a real alpha male,he was 5’8 about 180, he treated people with respect and didnt try to bully anybody.But man, when some jerk would come around and try to play the corporate games, show their uneeded authority,no mater how big they were or what position they held.It was fun to watch when he would tell them he’s tired of hearing their crap and they better not say another word or he’s gonna beat the piss out of them and jack off in their f***n ear.

You should have seen the expression’s on their face and how fast they would leave.I thought we would be throwed off the job several times but it never happened ,I guess the people saw that this guy was serious and meant business.One time a big 6’4 250-260 pound fake biker tried to play his game on this man when he was about58 yrs.old he ran his mouth, the guy i knew told the biker to get away and leave him be,the big dude stuck out his chest like he was gonna do something and my friend hit him & nocked the big guy over some bikes and jumped over & proceeded to beat him senseless.none of the other bikers even tried to help their big buddy .

I guess he was the alpha male of that group ,and when they saw that 58 yr. old real tough guy they didnt know what to do.

[quote]Synthesize wrote:
Our biology and social behaviors have striking similarities to animals, this is true. Due, however, to disparate evolutionary paths, our social behaviors have taken on distinct and unprecedented features when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. Again, this claim cannot be disputed.[/quote]

Who is disputing this? Isn’t this what everyone else has said? How stupid do you think everyone else is in comparison to you?

[quote]
We are animals, and again, we find no argument here.[/quote]

Brilliant!

[quote]
What I argue instead is that we can find as much similarity between us and primates with strong male dominance as those without. And I do not dispute male dominance in human societies.[/quote]

So you wrote this because…?

[quote]
I simply state: male dominance in humans has taken upon a different evolutionary path and so we must be careful when comparing humans to other primates. Comparisons can yield useful models of human behavior, but I think the comparison to “alpha males” in other primate species is a misbegotten one and not helpful to understanding contemporary human beings.[/quote]

…and I think you are wrong on that one. Want a cookie?

[quote]
For the matter of pheremones: human beings do not even detect pheremones through the same sensory apparatus as do most other primate species, including baboons. I cannot deny the role of pheremones for hormonal regulation; this has been proven. However, again, even in the case of pheremones regulating behavior (hormones regulate behavior), we must be cautious, because human beings are again, very different from other primates. And although this is the case, I do admit that useful comparisons can be drawn.[/quote]

Who wrote that we respond exactly the same to pheromones as primates? I write that there is a response, implying that we may not be so “highly specialized”.

[quote]
I will not stand on a soapbox and preach the magnificence and superiority of human beings when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. All I wish is to dispel harmful comparisons to primates, of which I believe the “Alpha Male” comparison is one.[/quote]

Harmful comparisons? What is harmful about this comparison? Please list the harm it causes and the effects on society. Thank you.

[quote]Synthesize wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Synthesize wrote:
We are not baboons. Alpha males do not exist among human beings.

Read “Our Inner Ape”. The parallels between primate societies and emotions and human societies and emotions are striking.

While it is true that we are not baboons alpha males do certainly exist in our society.

You are going to give me a book, and supposedly this authority is going to convince me? I have read the literature, and I do not agree with this claim, though I do believe comparisons with primates can yield some interesting models of human behavior. I, however, do not believe the “Alpha Male” comparison is a good one.[/quote]

Read the book. It is a good read. He does not make any outlandish claims.

[quote]Synthesize wrote:
Our biology and social behaviors have striking similarities to animals, this is true. Due, however, to disparate evolutionary paths, our social behaviors have taken on distinct and unprecedented features when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. Again, this claim cannot be disputed.

We are animals, and again, we find no argument here.
[/quote]

Of course this claim can be disputed. What distinct and unprecedented behaviours do we have? Name some.

I think you assume that every new species develops a unique way of behaving even though it is much more likely that our unique psychological adaptations are only a variant of general primate behaviours and even those that could be argued to be “special” would still have to interact with a layer of typical primate instincts which have to interact with typical mammal instincts which are still influenced by the reptilian part of our brain…

We have as much in common with primates that do not live groups than with those who do?

This is nonsense, but that is basically what you are stating. Show me a primate species where males do not dominate.

Gibbons do not live in groups, therefore no competition, therefore no size difference between a male/female gibbon.

[quote]
For the matter of pheremones: human beings do not even detect pheremones through the same sensory apparatus as do most other primate species, including baboons. I cannot deny the role of pheremones for hormonal regulation; this has been proven. However, again, even in the case of pheremones regulating behavior (hormones regulate behavior), we must be cautious, because human beings are again, very different from other primates. And although this is the case, I do admit that useful comparisons can be drawn.

I will not stand on a soapbox and preach the magnificence and superiority of human beings when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. All I wish is to dispel harmful comparisons to primates, of which I believe the “Alpha Male” comparison is one.[/quote]

Harmful? Why? Noone is preaching a version of social-darwinism, but if you really think you get anywhere in life without focused aggression , especially if you are male…

[quote]Synthesize wrote:

In human beings,

  1. Leadership is determined by other mechanisms than is by most other primates and in many cases, climbing up the leadership ladder can be achieved by snivelling as well as any other means. This doesn’t preclude comparisons to say chimpanzees (somebody brought up the issue of alliances, which occur in many primates), but it helps to show that the ascent to power is not always characterized by these ideals of baboon-like alpha maleness that many are exhorting here. You have to lie, cheat, and steal to become powerful.
    [/quote]

And you also have to pursue your goals AGRESSIVELY. To take what you want. Conquer. Dominate.

Being part of a species that has relatively big brain compared to its body mass being clever would not hurt either.

I think it is obvious that you cannot climb the human social ladder by behaving like a dominant baboon, BUT you could also not climb the baboon social ladder by behaving like a dominant human.

So what?

Really? Do you know how many women chinese emperors had to impregnate? No other primates EVER had the reproductive success like the highest ranking male individuals in human societies.

Oh, and we ARE a primate society.

That is a good point. Yes, we are a very political species which is why brute force is not enough.

However those who are not able to kill allways have been and allways will be at the mercy of those who can. So brute force is an essential part of it.

Women do not desire to have a low ranking male as a partner. They never have, they never will. So these “opportunities” simply don?t exist.

[quote]
The perpetuation of most of the members of society, with their distinct abilities, was then necessary for the perpetuation of the group. If the leaders boinked and impregnated all the females, the society would not have functioned as well.

I would say one of the most characteristic aspects of this “rank view” of males is that high ranking males mate a lot more than low ranking ones. While there is some correlation in human societies of this, human societies show this trend to a MUCH more marginalized extent. This is why women marry weak nerds (though you may rebut and say this is why they cheat on them, as well…)[/quote]

This is a very interesting point. You are absolutely correct that polygamous societies are societies where competition is fierce, violent, cut- throat in the truest sense of the word.

One of the most important contributions of judeo-christian sexual mores may have been the one man- one woman rule which tamed society to some degree.

However Houellebecq argues in one of his novels that sexual liberalism has the same effects like economic liberalism, some people drown in opportunities others do not get anything at all.

Christianity as sexual socialism? Who knows.

With the decline of christian sexual mores our society should become more competitive.